trade deadline

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Throw in Robertson's ALDS numbers and he's done pretty well. Can't really fault the Rays for that pickup. Which doesn't alter the fact that Robles has also been a good one.

 

Hansel was physically ill last night; fans didn't know it at the time, but now we should all give him a break... unless he was sick all day, and then he should've told the coaches, rather than put a playoff game at risk.

 

And just be glad, those of you who wanted Kimbrel back that Bloom stayed away. There's a guy that is still making Sox fans physically ill, but luckily they're White Sox fans.

[moonslav59]

Hansel was physically ill last night; fans didn't know it at the time, but now we should all give him a break... unless he was sick all day, and then he should've told the coaches, rather than put a playoff game at risk.

 

And just be glad, those of you who wanted Kimbrel back that Bloom stayed away. There's a guy that is still making Sox fans physically ill, but luckily they're White Sox fans.

 

Someone was still claiming we should have gotten Rizzo.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Someone was still claiming we should have gotten Rizzo.

 

At the end of July, when Dalbec looked overmatched in the bigs, most of us (and the media) thought Rizzo was a natural fit at first base, in the lineup and in the clubhouse. Nobody suggested Kyle Schwarber as an alternative, because he wasn't even a first baseman!

 

Then Rizzo went to NY and immediately contributed, while Schwarber didn't play for two weeks after joining the Sox; when he finally did, it seemed awkward trying to find a place for him on the field. It still does -- after watching last night's E, and then hearing the cheers when he took a bow for making a routine play.

 

But Schwarber not only outperformed Rizzo, he was the best impact bat that changed teams all season long. Marcus Semien was more productive, but he also played all 162 games. Schwarber had a higher OPS, which was also higher than any Red Sox hitter, before and after he came to Boston. At 28 years old, he's just entering his prime. Isn't that the kind of guy a big market club should invest in?

[moonslav59]

At the end of July, when Dalbec looked overmatched in the bigs, most of us (and the media) thought Rizzo was a natural fit at first base, in the lineup and in the clubhouse. Nobody suggested Kyle Schwarber as an alternative, because he wasn't even a first baseman!

 

Then Rizzo went to NY and immediately contributed, while Schwarber didn't play for two weeks after joining the Sox; when he finally did, it seemed awkward trying to find a place for him on the field. It still does -- after watching last night's E, and then hearing the cheers when he took a bow for making a routine play.

 

But Schwarber not only outperformed Rizzo, he was the best impact bat that changed teams all season long. Marcus Semien was more productive, but he also played all 162 games. Schwarber had a higher OPS, which was also higher than any Red Sox hitter, before and after he came to Boston. At 28 years old, he's just entering his prime. Isn't that the kind of guy a big market club should invest in?

 

This is all true, but the real fact that made the Rizzo non addition look olden was the turn around by Dalbec.

 

Without Dalbec playing nearly everyday after the deadline, we don't even make the playoffs. Sub Rizzo for Dalbec and give him the same numbers he had with the Yanks, and we'd have been watching the Yanks and Jays play the play-in game from home.

 

Here are some numbers from July 30 to Oct 3:

 

.286 15 41 Dalbec 1.044 OPS

.291 7 18 Schwarber .957 OPS (34runs scored)

.238 3 11 T Shaw .843 (in just 48 PAs)

.356 1 7 Iggy .915 OPS (September addition)

 

.249 8 21 Rizzo .768 OPS

.161 13 22 Gallo .707

 

 

3.60 ERA Robles (25 IP)/ 2.08 last 21.2 IP/0.00 last 13.2 IP

 

5.09 ERA Kimbrel (23 IP with CWS)

5.25 ERA David Robertson (12 IP w TBR)

IL Cole Hamels (0 IP)

[oldtimer]

This is all true, but the real fact that made the Rizzo non addition look olden was the turn around by Dalbec.

 

Without Dalbec playing nearly everyday after the deadline, we don't even make the playoffs. Sub Rizzo for Dalbec and give him the same numbers he had with the Yanks, and we'd have been watching the Yanks and Jays play the play-in game from home.

 

Here are some numbers from July 30 to Oct 3:

 

.286 15 41 Dalbec 1.044 OPS

.291 7 18 Schwarber .957 OPS (34runs scored)

.238 3 11 T Shaw .843 (in just 48 PAs)

.356 1 7 Iggy .915 OPS (September addition)

 

.249 8 21 Rizzo .768 OPS

.161 13 22 Gallo .707

 

 

3.60 ERA Robles (25 IP)/ 2.08 last 21.2 IP/0.00 last 13.2 IP

 

5.09 ERA Kimbrel (23 IP with CWS)

5.25 ERA David Robertson (12 IP w TBR)

IL Cole Hamels (0 IP)

 

Everything done by the Sox was wise beyond belief. Anyone who expresses doubt must be a crackpot.

[mvp 78]

Yes, Robles has had some nice stretches in his career. But Bloom was also ripped for passing on Cole Hamels and Dave Robertson. Hamels was injured before the ink dried on his new contract and Robles actually out-pitched Robertson. (Robles: 3.60 ERA/3.36 FIP for Boston, Robertson: 4.50 ERA/3.67 FIP for Tampa).

 

But hey, those guys are bigger names and would have been awesome additions. To the 2011 team...

 

I don't remember any big kerfuffle about Robertson or Hamels.

[mvp 78]

Everything done by the Sox was wise beyond belief. Anyone who expresses doubt must be a crackpot.

 

Disagree. Schwarber was a fine pickup who is playing so out of position he's throwing balls into the wives' section at Fenway.

 

This bullpen needed bolstering. To me, the moves were more rearranging the deck chairs.

[moonslav59]

Disagree. Schwarber was a fine pickup who is playing so out of position he's throwing balls into the wives' section at Fenway.

 

This bullpen needed bolstering. To me, the moves were more rearranging the deck chairs.

 

Robles was the Adirondack of all deck chairs for quite some time.

[Old Red]

This is all true, but the real fact that made the Rizzo non addition look olden was the turn around by Dalbec.

 

Without Dalbec playing nearly everyday after the deadline, we don't even make the playoffs. Sub Rizzo for Dalbec and give him the same numbers he had with the Yanks, and we'd have been watching the Yanks and Jays play the play-in game from home.

 

Here are some numbers from July 30 to Oct 3:

 

.286 15 41 Dalbec 1.044 OPS

.291 7 18 Schwarber .957 OPS (34runs scored)

.238 3 11 T Shaw .843 (in just 48 PAs)

.356 1 7 Iggy .915 OPS (September addition)

 

.249 8 21 Rizzo .768 OPS

.161 13 22 Gallo .707

 

 

3.60 ERA Robles (25 IP)/ 2.08 last 21.2 IP/0.00 last 13.2 IP

 

5.09 ERA Kimbrel (23 IP with CWS)

5.25 ERA David Robertson (12 IP w TBR)

IL Cole Hamels (0 IP)

 

It all worked out, and I’m glad it did, but at the time of Jul 31 the Sox did need a 1B. We will never know what Rizzo’s stats would have looked like with the Sox, but don’t make it sound like Bobby D was raking everyday, because he wasn’t. He went 9 games after the trade deadline, before he hit a homer. He had av3 game stretch, where he knocked in 11 runs, and a 7 rbi game later on, so like I said it all worked out, but I don’t think it was the right move at the time. Schwaber worked out well too, but don’t tell me he was the plan all along. If it was Bloom would have signed him in the first place, and not waied to the Yankees jumped on Rizzo, and then Schwaber was left. Like I said I’m glad it all worked out, but at the time it wasn’t the right thing to do, because they needed help at 1B, and Schwaber still is not a 1B, and was hurt as well.

[moonslav59]

It all worked out, and I’m glad it did, but at the time of Jul 31 the Sox did need a 1B. We will never know what Rizzo’s stats would have looked like with the Sox, but don’t make it sound like Bobby D was raking everyday, because he wasn’t. He went 9 games after the trade deadline, before he hit a homer. He had av3 game stretch, where he knocked in 11 runs, and a 7 rbi game later on, so like I said it all worked out, but I don’t think it was the right move at the time. Schwaber worked out well too, but don’t tell me he was the plan all along. If it was Bloom would have signed him in the first place, and not waied to the Yankees jumped on Rizzo, and then Schwaber was left. Like I said I’m glad it all worked out, but at the time it wasn’t the right thing to do, because they needed help at 1B, and Schwaber still is not a 1B, and was hurt as well.

 

I didn't make it sound like Dalbec was raking. We all know he wasn't.

 

The point is, we didn't need a 1Bman. Dalbec came through.

 

While Schwarber muffed a bunch at 1B, his bat more than made up for it, so even if Dalbec didn't turn it around, Schwarber was a better pick than Rizzo, and not just in hidsight. Rizzo has been in decline, while Schwarber has been on a meteoric rise.

[Old Red]

I didn't make it sound like Dalbec was raking. We all know he wasn't.

 

The point is, we didn't need a 1Bman. Dalbec came through.

 

While Schwarber muffed a bunch at 1B, his bat more than made up for it, so even if Dalbec didn't turn it around, Schwarber was a better pick than Rizzo, and not just in hidsight. Rizzo has been in decline, while Schwarber has been on a meteoric rise.

 

The point I was making is at the time we did need a 1B, and Dalbec coming through was after the fact. But on Jul 31 we did need a 1B. Once again you don’t know what Rizzo’s stats would have been with the Sox, and saying Schwaber has been on a meteoric rise is a little over exaggerated, and remember when Schwaber couldn’t play for two weeks the team was dropping in the standings, and Rizzo would have been playing at that time. I know Rizzo is in decline, but at the time on Jul 31 he was a better option than Bobby D, and like I said Schwaber was just a after thought. Like I said it all worked out, so let’s just agree on that.

[moonslav59]

The point I was making is at the time we did need a 1B, and Dalbec coming through was after the fact. But on Jul 31 we did need a 1B. Once again you don’t know what Rizzo’s stats would have been with the Sox, and saying Schwaber has been on a meteoric rise is a little over exaggerated, and remember when Schwaber couldn’t play for two weeks the team was dropping in the standings, and Rizzo would have been playing at that time. I know Rizzo is in decline, but at the time on Jul 31 he was a better option than Bobby D, and like I said Schwaber was just a after thought. Like I said it all worked out, so let’s just agree on that.

 

Rizzo's numbers (about .775 from 2020-2021) on July 30th were barely better than Dalbec's (.722 from 2020-July 30, 2021.) Rizzo was not free, either.

 

The move worked in hindsight with Dalbec, but Schwarber was obatined with 1B in mind, too. I'm not sure why you call him an "after thought." The guy was a stud before we got him. The 2 week wait was known ahead of time, and we did suffer those two weeks, but even had Rizzo hit his OPS before the trade, he was not worth it. Foresight and hindsight. IMO, of course.

 

Schwarber was beyond meteoric, so yes, I exaggerated by understating his accomplishments before coming to us. Thank you for correcting me.

 

1.383 OPS in 88 PAs before going on the IL. (1.061 in 164 PAs before IL)

.957 after coming off the IL in 168 PAs)

 

What a let down, he was.

Edited October 12, 2021 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

Rizzo's numbers on July 30th were barely better than Dalbec's. Rizzo was not free, either.

 

The move worked in hindsight with Dalbec, but Schwarber was obatined with 1B in mind, too. I'm not sure why you call him an "after thought." The guy was a stud before we got him. The 2 week wait was known ahead of time, and we did suffer those two weeks, but even had Rizzo hit his OPS before the trade, he was not worth it. Foresight and hindsight. IMO, of course.

 

Look I already said it all worked out, and I’m glad it did. I don’t think Schwaber was the first option, and that is why I say after thought. Let’s remember that Dalbec was having trouble catching the ball too, and Rizzo is an excellent defensive 1B. Schwaber was not free either.

[moonslav59]

Look I already said it all worked out, and I’m glad it did. I don’t think Schwaber was the first option, and that is why I say after thought. Let’s remember that Dalbec was having trouble catching the ball too, and Rizzo is an excellent defensive 1B. Schwaber was not free either.

 

Schwarber was a lot cheaper than Rizzo and better.

 

Rizzo was at .775 from 2020 on. He was not worth what it would have taken to get him.

 

Yes, his defense is much better than Bobby Dee's.

 

To me, it wasn't about Schwarber being an afterthought. We kicked the tires in Rizzo, and the cost was too high.

 

We didn't just get Schwarber as 1B insurance either. JD was not the same old JD (.682 in previous 69 PAs), and Verdugo was struggling at .749 on trade day (.622 in his previous 138 PAs).

 

Of course the deals look better in hindsight than foresight, but I think you are thinking Rizzo was the Rizzo from pre-2020 and are discounting just what a force Schwraber was becoming in 2021 as he reached peak prime years.

[Old Red]

Schwarber was a lot cheaper than Rizzo and better.

 

Rizzo was at .775 from 2020 on. He was not worth what it would have taken to get him.

 

Yes, his defense is much better than Bobby Dee's.

 

To me, it wasn't about Schwarber being an afterthought. We kicked the tires in Rizzo, and the cost was too high.

 

We didn't just get Schwarber as 1B insurance either. JD was not the same old JD (.682 in previous 69 PAs), and Verdugo was struggling at .749 on trade day (.622 in his previous 138 PAs).

 

Of course the deals look better in hindsight than foresight, but I think you are thinking Rizzo was the Rizzo from pre-2020 and are discounting just what a force Schwraber was becoming in 2021 as he reached peak prime years.

 

The Yankees didn’t pay much for Rizzo, so it wasn’t that, and I think the Yankees just beat the Sox to the punch, so it’s just speculating that the cost for Rizzo was to high just as it is that Schwaber is a after thought. Like I said let’s just agree that it all worked out.

[Maxbialystock]

Everything done by the Sox was wise beyond belief. Anyone who expresses doubt must be a crackpot.

 

Yep. Schwarber with that injury was a bit of a gamble, but one that really paid off. As moonslav says, Dalbec filled in nicely (OPS over .900) at 1b.

 

Hard not to be a Schwarber fan after Sunday's game, in which he made that horrible toss for an error, then took a bow when he made a good toss the next time. The fans loved it, and so did the team.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[mvp 78]

Yep. Schwarber with that injury was a bit of a gamble, but one that really paid off. As moonslav says, Dalbec filled in nicely (OPS over .900) at 1b.

 

Hard not to be a Schwarber fan after Sunday's game, in which he made that horrible toss for an error, then took a bow when he made a good toss the next time. The fans loved it, and so did the team.

 

Rizzo to the Yanks for their #9 and #13 prospects.

Schwarber to the Sox for their #8 prospect.

 

Could the Sox have gotten Rizzo instead if they offered Aldo Ramirez AND Connor Seabold?

[Old Red]

Yep. Schwarber with that injury was a bit of a gamble, but one that really paid off. As moonslav says, Dalbec filled in nicely (OPS over .900) at 1b.

 

Hard not to be a Schwarber fan after Sunday's game, in which he made that horrible toss for an error, then took a bow when he made a good toss the next time. The fans loved it, and so did the team.

 

Schwaber made a good toss on a ROUTINE play. Boy the standards are really low of what we praise. I’ll keep saying that you can only play someone where they don’t belong so long before you get burned in a big situation.

[notin]

The Yankees didn’t pay much for Rizzo, so it wasn’t that, and I think the Yankees just beat the Sox to the punch, so it’s just speculating that the cost for Rizzo was to high just as it is that Schwaber is a after thought. Like I said let’s just agree that it all worked out.

 

Is that true?

 

Hard to compare and evaluate those deals, but using the FV assigned by Fangraphs, the two prospects given up by the Yankees totaled 95. In order to top that offer, the Red Sox would have had to trade either Downs or Casas along with Gilberto Jimenez. To equal that offer, the Sox could have kept Jimenez and offered one of Duran, Houck, or Dalbec.

 

Of course, this really isn’t proper use of Future Value. Using BTV, Alcantara and Vizcaino are roughly equal to dealing Seabold and Song.

 

Vastly different comparison methods, but neither really says the Yankees didn’t give up much compared to what the Sox would have had to give up.,.

[Old Red]

Is that true?

 

Hard to compare and evaluate those deals, but using the FV assigned by Fangraphs, the two prospects given up by the Yankees totaled 95. In order to top that offer, the Red Sox would have had to trade either Downs or Casas along with Gilberto Jimenez. To equal that offer, the Sox could have kept Jimenez and offered one of Duran, Houck, or Dalbec.

 

Of course, this really isn’t proper use of Future Value. Using BTV, Alcantara and Vizcaino are roughly equal to dealing Seabold and Song.

 

Vastly different comparison methods, but neither really says the Yankees didn’t give up much compared to what the Sox would have had to give up.,.

 

I think Jeter Downs stock has taken a big turn downward after this season.

[Old Red]

Is that true?

 

Hard to compare and evaluate those deals, but using the FV assigned by Fangraphs, the two prospects given up by the Yankees totaled 95. In order to top that offer, the Red Sox would have had to trade either Downs or Casas along with Gilberto Jimenez. To equal that offer, the Sox could have kept Jimenez and offered one of Duran, Houck, or Dalbec.

 

Of course, this really isn’t proper use of Future Value. Using BTV, Alcantara and Vizcaino are roughly equal to dealing Seabold and Song.

 

Vastly different comparison methods, but neither really says the Yankees didn’t give up much compared to what the Sox would have had to give up.,.

 

Dumbrowski gave up lots of prospects in his many deals. How many have turned out to be good players outside of Moncada?Prospects are just that prospects until proven they are good major league players. Right now Duran is only a prospect, and so is Casas for that matter. Many times they are overrated, and don’t turn out at all.

[moonslav59]

The Yankees didn’t pay much for Rizzo, so it wasn’t that, and I think the Yankees just beat the Sox to the punch, so it’s just speculating that the cost for Rizzo was to high just as it is that Schwaber is a after thought. Like I said let’s just agree that it all worked out.

 

It's debatable on what the cost was to get Rizzo, but I think everyone would agree they paid way more than we did for KS.

 

The Yanks gave away a lot of farm depth. Jacko will claim they were all duplicate values or also-rans, but I beg to differ.

 

MLBTR wrote this...

 

Alcantara and Vizcaino makes for a solid return on-paper, since Rizzo will hit free agency at the end of the season.

 

The Cubs seem to have done well in adding Alcantara and Vizcaino, both of whom ranked among the top 15 minor league talents in the organization on Baseball America’s midseason update. Eric Longenhagen of FanGraphs also ranked the duo highly, slotting Alcantara as the sport’s #120 overall prospect entering the year.

 

Alcantara, 19, draws praise for his projectable frame and chance to grow into big power. A center fielder now, he might grow out of the position, but he’s a high-upside addition to the lower levels of the Cubs’ farm system. Alcantara’s playing in the rookie level Arizona Complex League, so he’s years from the majors — similar to the group of players Chicago picked up from the Padres in last winter’s Yu Darvish trade.

 

Vizcaino’s a nearer-term addition. He’s topped out at High-A, but the changeup specialist is already 24 years old and was selected to the 40-man roster last offseason. He still has a pair of minor league option years remaining after this season. Longenhagen suggests his delivery likely points to a bullpen future, but he’s been a starting pitcher to this point in his career. Vizcaino hasn’t pitched much this season due to injury, but he tossed 115 innings of 4.38 ERA ball across two levels of A-ball back in 2019.

[moonslav59]

Dumbrowski gave up lots of prospects in his many deals. How many have turned out to be good players outside of Moncada?Prospects are just that prospects until proven they are good major league players. Right now Duran is only a prospect, and so is Casas for that matter. Many times they are overrated, and don’t turn out at all.

 

Some of the players still have time to add value, but it sure looks like most of the highly-touted prospects under-achieved. That doesn't mean the next ones traded will, too.

 

Kopech seems like he'll be alright.

 

Not all the guys DD added did well, either, but no doubt, several were difference makers.

 

Are you for trading Duran & Casas?

[sk7326]

Some of the players still have time to add value, but it sure looks like most of the highly-touted prospects under-achieved. That doesn't mean the next ones traded will, too.

 

Kopech seems like he'll be alright.

 

Not all the guys DD added did well, either, but no doubt, several were difference makers.

 

Are you for trading Duran & Casas?

 

One thing Dombrowski was good at was making aggressive calls on the farmhands.

[moonslav59]

One thing Dombrowski was good at was making aggressive calls on the farmhands.

 

More importantly, to me, he chose to keep Devers, Dalbec & Houck.

[dgalehouse]

One thing Dombrowski was good at was making aggressive calls on the farmhands.

 

How about a tip of the cap to Dombrowski for the Eovaldi for Beeks trade . Would things have been different if the Rays still had Eovaldi , and the Sox still had Beeks? That is not a question.

[mvp 78]

How about a tip of the cap to Dombrowski for the Eovaldi for Beeks trade . Would things have been different if the Rays still had Eovaldi , and the Sox still had Beeks? That is not a question.

 

Rays would never re-sign a guy like Eovaldi. Sox would have just grabbed some other FA pitcher to take Eovaldi's place.

[mvp 78]

More importantly, to me, he chose to keep Devers, Dalbec & Houck.

 

Houck had just been pushed to the pen in AAA at the end of 2019. Dalbec had a 779 OPS in AAA at the end of 2019.

 

Neither of those players were performing in a manner that would garner outsized interest from anyone outside the organization.

 

He gets credit on keeping Devers instead of Moncada/Kopech.

[notin]

I think Jeter Downs stock has taken a big turn downward after this season.

 

Probably unfairly so.

 

He just played his age 22 season in AAA after a year off preceded by minimal time in AA. I think he deserves some slack...

[notin]

Dumbrowski gave up lots of prospects in his many deals. How many have turned out to be good players outside of Moncada?Prospects are just that prospects until proven they are good major league players. Right now Duran is only a prospect, and so is Casas for that matter. Many times they are overrated, and don’t turn out at all.

 

Plenty of times they don't turn out, but keeping Houck and Dalbec has helped the 2021 team a lot...