2020-2021 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

I'll go a step further. The notion that Henry isn’t spending and isn’t retaining top talent is dumb and whiny.

 

He's spending, but not spending in the way I want him to.

[moonslav59]

Starting in August, the 2012 team shed Crawford, AGon, Beckett, Mike Aviles, Nick Punto, Cody Ross, and Aaron Cook, plus the three most frequently used bench players (Ciriaco, Sweeney, Podsednik), among others. That's 44% of the lineup, 40% of the rotation and a full bench. That's a really big turnover. They moved the starting 1B, SS, LF, RF, and 2 of the most frequently used SP's

 

This team heading into next season has added 1 new SP, 2 new outfielders, and a 2B, and somehow people are screaming this is too much of an overhaul?

 

Plus, we've been "overhauling" a team that under performed in 2019, which had a few players on the wrong side of 30, one of which was making over $30M a year. The 2020 team was the worst in 2 decades. Injuries can explain some of that, but to think we didn't need an overhaul is being short-sighted.

 

People complained about losing Price, and he ended up opting out of 2020 and does not really have high expectations going forward.

 

We kept JD, and he fell off a cliff- people bitched, even when we keep the stars.

 

We let Porcello, Kimbrel, Kelly and a few others go. Is anyone trying to claim we should have kept them, specifically?

 

Beni and JBJ were not players we NEEDED to keep.

 

Betts is the one guy that does not fit the narrative, but people are acting like we let 10 Mookie's go.

 

[notin]

Plus, we've been "overhauling" a team that under performed in 2019, which had a few players on the wrong side of 30, one of which was making over $30M a year. The 2020 team was the worst in 2 decades. Injuries can explain some of that, but to think we didn't need an overhaul is being short-sighted.

 

People complained about losing Price, and he ended up opting out of 2020 and does not really have high expectations going forward.

 

We kept JD, and he fell off a cliff- people bitched, even when we keep the stars.

 

We let Porcello, Kimbrel, Kelly and a few others go. Is anyone trying to claim we should have kept them, specifically?

 

Beni and JBJ were not players we NEEDED to keep.

 

Betts is the one guy that does not fit the narrative, but people are acting like we let 10 Mookie's go.

 

 

The Sox ended the 2019 season with over $300 million committed to a declining Price, and oft-injured Eovaldi, and an injured Sale. I wanted Betts back as much as anyone, but even I could see he was not going to be able to fix that clear and obvious problem...

[Bellhorn04]

Really the complaint is that he is not retaining ALL the top talent. But since Betts got away, we can ignore the others?

 

Your theory that Betts simply priced him out of the Sox price range during negotiations may have merit, but I have always maintained the Sox' prior spending also made it impossible to retain him. The reality is both were likely very significant factors...

 

A sort of compromise view is that Henry was deeply soured on mega-contracts by recent spending experiences. And there's little doubt that he was casting an eye in the Rays direction and observing how they were somehow getting so much more out of their limited spending.

[notin]

A sort of compromise view is that Henry was deeply soured on mega-contracts by recent spending experiences. And there's little doubt that he was casting an eye in the Rays direction and observing how they were somehow getting so much more out of their limited spending.

 

Ever since Henry purchased the team, he has always tried to embrace some of the newer strategies into staying competitive, and making it about more than just throwing money at every issue. He did hire Billy Beane at one point so that we could all see the end results of how Moneyball worked when you actually had money. And every GM the Sox (and probably every other team) have had has tried to duplicate what John Schuerholz did with the Braves for over a decade...

[notin]

A sort of compromise view is that Henry was deeply soured on mega-contracts by recent spending experiences. And there's little doubt that he was casting an eye in the Rays direction and observing how they were somehow getting so much more out of their limited spending.

 

Also at one point, remember the plan was no more mega deals for pitchers over 30. That was the plan during the 2014 offseason, but it was clearly discarded after the 2015 off-season when the Sox gave their biggest deal ever to a 31yo pitcher..

Edited March 5, 2021 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Also at one point, remember the plan was no more mega deals for pitchers over 30. That was the plan during the 2014 offseason, but it was clearly discared after the 2015 offseason when the Sox gave thir biggest deal ever to a 31yo pitcher..

 

In my humble opinion that was just how Henry felt at the time. The words got on record and have been used against him ever since. Which may be part of why he doesn't talk to the media anymore.

 

Also, they kind of instantly repudiated it by offering Lester 135 million, didn't they?

[mvp 78]

Betts is the one guy that does not fit the narrative, but people are acting like we let 10 Mookie's go.

 

 

Letting one Mookie go is malfeasance.

[moonslav59]

He's spending, but not spending in the way I want him to.

 

I don't agree with every signing Bloom has made, so far, but he does deserve a chance to see how these recent signings work out. He had virtually no winter spending budget, last year.

 

Bloom spent more, this winter, but he had so many weak spots on the 26 and 40 man roster to fill, I'm not sure what more he could have done.

 

Kluber not Richards? Is that a sure better signing?

 

We needed 2-3 SP'ers, 2-3 RP'ers, a CF'er, a 2Bman, a 4th OF'er or utility player or two and some serious 40 man roster depth.

 

That's about 10 serious slots to fill and another 4-8 40 man roster additions.

 

Had we signed a big name player, we'd have had to go dirt cheap at 2-4 other slots.

 

Here's who he added since the end of 2020's season:

 

Richards

Ottavino

EHern

Renfroe

M Perez

Cordero

Andriese

Sawamura

Gonzalez

Whitlock

R. Hernandez ©

(F German, Winckowski, D Santana, 3 PTBNLs and more)

 

I think Bloom has spent about $41-43M, this winter. Tell me how you'd have spent that, assuming we could have gotten players to sign for us, instead of where they did for $1M more.

 

Players acquired, last summer:

Pivetta

Seabold

Potts

Rosario

J Wallace

Z Bryant

 

[mvp 78]

I don't agree with every signing Bloom has made, so far, but he does deserve a chance to see how these recent signings work out. He had virtually no winter spending budget, last year.

 

Bloom spent more, this winter, but he had so many weak spots on the 26 and 40 man roster to fill, I'm not sure what more he could have done.

 

I think Bloom has been fine. My problem is with Henry allowing this organization to get to the point that they felt they had to dump Betts. They had no plans longer than the tip of their nose.

[notin]

He's spending, but not spending in the way I want him to.

 

Typically that’s what “he’s not spending” or “Henry is cheap” actually means...

[notin]

I think Bloom has been fine. My problem is with Henry allowing this organization to get to the point that they felt they had to dump Betts. They had no plans longer than the tip of their nose.

 

While I agree, one has to wonder if 2018 was worth it.

 

Now one could argue for extending Betts (assuming he was amenable, which he wasn’t in every version of the story) over e tending Sale and Bogaerts and bringing back Eovaldi. What’s the preference - Betts or the other three?

[mvp 78]

While I agree, one has to wonder if 2018 was worth it.

 

Now one could argue for extending Betts (assuming he was amenable, which he wasn’t in every version of the story) over e tending Sale and Bogaerts and bringing back Eovaldi. What’s the preference - Betts or the other three?

 

Eovaldi and Sale make $47 combined. I just wouldn't have extended them and kept Betts.

[Bellhorn04]

Eovaldi and Sale make $47 combined. I just wouldn't have extended them and kept Betts.

 

Eovaldi shouldn't even be part of this. Yes, $17 million is too much. But he's off the books after 2022.

[Bellhorn04]

While I agree, one has to wonder if 2018 was worth it.

 

Isn't it a little strange we've reached the point that we think a championship season wasn't worth it?

 

If we didn't win in 2018, I shudder to think what the mood of the Nation would be right now.

[mvp 78]

Isn't it a little strange we've reached the point that we think a championship season wasn't worth it?

 

If we didn't win in 2018, I shudder to think what the mood of the Nation would be right now.

 

2018: worth it

2019: not worth it

[Bellhorn04]

2019: not worth it

 

Not worth what, though? Not worth trying to do it all over again, like they did?

[mvp 78]

Not worth what, though? Not worth trying to do it all over again, like they did?

 

Not worth extending Sale and re-signing Eovaldi.

[notin]

Not worth extending Sale and re-signing Eovaldi.

 

I had mixed emotions about the Sale deal. It did seem like a bargain compared to other free agent aces like Price, Scherzer, etc. But I also wondered if he only signed it because he knew he was already injured.

 

I suppose if anything, the rapid decline of Price from ace status should have been a lesson for DD...

[mvp 78]

I had mixed emotions about the Sale deal. It did seem like a bargain compared to other free agent aces like Price, Scherzer, etc. But I also wondered if he only signed it because he knew he was already injured.

 

I suppose if anything, the rapid decline of Price from ace status should have been a lesson for DD...

 

Lessons? DD doesn't need no stinkin' lessons.

[notin]

Lessons? DD doesn't need no stinkin' lessons.

 

Hey, he tried to learn about not ignoring the bullpen in Boston, and unloaded everything that wasn't nailed down to do so...

[mvp 78]

Hey, he tried to learn about not ignoring the bullpen in Boston, and unloaded everything that wasn't nailed down to do so...

 

It worked for 2018.

[jacksonianmarch]

When you’re in window, you go for it. Does it matter much if you miss the POs by 5 games or 25 games? It really doesn’t. There’s an ebb and flow and being mediocre is absolutely punished on the controllable talent acquisition side

[notin]

It worked for 2018.

 

Did it?

 

IN the second half of 2018, Kimbrel's ERA was enarly 3 full run higher than his first half, he kept playoff games far too interesting, and he was not even n the mound to get the save to close out the World Series. And Carson Smith and Tyler Thonrburg were nowhere to be found.

 

DD did learn his lesson, going all in on relievers when he took over. My point was that was a new approach for him, as he repeatedly failed to do so in Detroit.

[Bellhorn04]

DD did learn his lesson, going all in on relievers when he took over. My point was that was a new approach for him, as he repeatedly failed to do so in Detroit.

 

4 straight division titles. Are you attributing the lack of championships to the bullpens?

[notin]

4 straight division titles. Are you attributing the lack of championships to the bullpens?

 

In Detroit? Aren't you?

 

David Ortiz probably did in 2013...

[Bellhorn04]

In Detroit? Aren't you?

 

David Ortiz probably did in 2013...

 

One bad pitch to a great hitter from a guy who had an excellent season? C'mon man.

[notin]

One bad pitch to a great hitter from a guy who had an excellent season? C'mon man.

 

The Tigers were 21st in MLB in fWAR from their relievers in those seasons. Also 26th in bullpen ERA and 23rd in bullpen FIP.

 

And this is from a team with 4 consecutive first place finishes. Are you saying the bullpen was NOT an issue?

[Bellhorn04]

The Tigers were 21st in MLB in fWAR from their relievers in those seasons. Also 26th in bullpen ERA and 23rd in bullpen FIP.

 

And this is from a team with 4 consecutive first place finishes. Are you saying the bullpen was NOT an issue?

 

The bullpen was not a strength. But the first place finishes suggest that was not a big issue.

 

And when trying to show it was what cost them titles, using that one pitch by Benoit is fun, but not really fact-based.

[notin]

The Tigers were 21st in MLB in fWAR from their relievers in those seasons. Also 26th in bullpen ERA and 23rd in bullpen FIP.

 

And this is from a team with 4 consecutive first place finishes. Are you saying the bullpen was NOT an issue?

 

Also worth noting while his team was dominating the AL Central

 

Deadline acquistions

 

2011: Doug Fister (SP)

2012: Omar Infante (INF) and Anibal Sanchez (SP)

2013: Jose Veras (RP), Jose Iglesias (SS)

2014: David Price (SP)

 

We all know pitchers, especially relievers are a very hot commodity among contendeers at the trading deadline. But in 4 straight seasons with weak bullpens, only one time did he shore up the bullpen by acquiring a relief pitcher...