Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[notin]

Trivia: In the deadline trades between the Red Sox and the Mariners in 1996-97, what player produced the highest WAR for his new team?

 

Boston surely relished the 0.5 fWAR Dave Henderson posted with the Red Sox (and, of course, the two-out, two-strike homer Hendu hit the ninth inning of Game 5 of the 1986 ALCS).

 

I'm guessing Jamie Moyer. But then producing more WAR than Darren Bragg is not exactly a major accomplishment...

[mvp 78]

I'm guessing Jamie Moyer. But then producing more WAR than Darren Bragg is not exactly a major accomplishment...

 

Bragg had 5.7 fWAR over the next two seasons. Moyer was only under contract through the end of 96. Good deal for the Sox.

[Slasher9]

Thanks for the taco Mookie!

I am sad that you will never be a Red Sox player again but wish you continued success.

[jacksonianmarch]

You cannot look at things in a vacuum. Mookie was entering his final year of control on a team that needed a rebuild. For a prime player, a rebuild isn’t exactly what you want to be a part of. No wonder Mookie “didn’t want to stay”. Why would he. He found a suitor with pockets just as large who was on the cusp of winning a title. He gets a ring, the Sox get a top 50 prospect and their RF for the next 5 seasons who will be a top or middle of the order hitter. Lamenting the loss of Mookie is one thing, but not seeing the reality and the fact that Bloom did incredibly well here is just sour grapes. 2020 would have sucked for the Sox with Mookie as well. Then, he would have been a FA and you could have gotten a 32nd draft pick rather than what you got this time around. The fact that you found a younger replacement under cheap control who can be an above average to all star level player is a great move. Snagging Downs with him is a winning GM move. Moving half of Price’s bloated contract is an elite move.

 

As a GM, players are assets. You want to sell high on them, pay them less than their worth and move on before they become negative value. Bloom is an expert at this. The Mookie deal was straight up gold

[Bellhorn04]

You cannot look at things in a vacuum. Mookie was entering his final year of control on a team that needed a rebuild. For a prime player, a rebuild isn’t exactly what you want to be a part of. No wonder Mookie “didn’t want to stay”. Why would he. He found a suitor with pockets just as large who was on the cusp of winning a title. He gets a ring, the Sox get a top 50 prospect and their RF for the next 5 seasons who will be a top or middle of the order hitter. Lamenting the loss of Mookie is one thing, but not seeing the reality and the fact that Bloom did incredibly well here is just sour grapes. 2020 would have sucked for the Sox with Mookie as well. Then, he would have been a FA and you could have gotten a 32nd draft pick rather than what you got this time around. The fact that you found a younger replacement under cheap control who can be an above average to all star level player is a great move. Snagging Downs with him is a winning GM move. Moving half of Price’s bloated contract is an elite move.

 

As a GM, players are assets. You want to sell high on them, pay them less than their worth and move on before they become negative value. Bloom is an expert at this. The Mookie deal was straight up gold

 

It's possible to be pissed off at the Red Sox ownership for not going all out to keep him, and at the same time give credit to Bloom for doing a good job with the trade.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dont think going all in to sign him was a good idea. These long term contracts are usually team beneficial early and player beneficial late. Even with Mookie, I doubt the Sox would have been title contenders before 2023-2024. They should be focusing on being playoff contenders for 2022, but I doubt they’re title contending at best until 2023. So you’re talking about burning the first two to three seasons of a massive contract for a player without any measurable benefit. New England fans are spoiled and fickle. If you’re okay enough to be in the playoff mix but clearly not a World Series caliber team, they tune out. So the added revenue from keeping mookie likely wouldn’t have equaled the cost of having him.

 

In short, if you’re in the window of contention, signing Mookie long term works. Kinda like the yanks with Cole. I wouldn’t have liked Cole’s deal unless the Yanks were title contenders. They clearly are and it’s a risk you take. The Sox clearly aren’t and it just isn’t worth the risk. I think the best thing happened for both the player and the team. The team needed to reboot. Mookie needed a long term deal and a title contender. Fans can lament losing Mookie all they want, but I think ownership did the right thing for the franchise. It’s the name on the front that matters.

[Bellhorn04]

Not sure if this has been posted here already, but the MLB Players Union has calculated the present value of Mookie's contract at $307 million, because of the deferred money of $115 million.

 

For whatever reason, this doesn't seem to have affected the AAV of the contract the way it did with Chris Sale's.

 

But what's painful about this is that in real dollars, the deal Mookie signed is actually only $7 million more than the Red Sox reported offer of $300 million, and it's for 2 more years.

 

What we'll never know is how much effect the pandemic had on Mookie's decision to take the deal.

[mvp 78]

It's possible to be pissed off at the Red Sox ownership for not going all out to keep him, and at the same time give credit to Bloom for doing a good job with the trade.

 

This is me.

[notin]

You cannot look at things in a vacuum. Mookie was entering his final year of control on a team that needed a rebuild. For a prime player, a rebuild isn’t exactly what you want to be a part of. No wonder Mookie “didn’t want to stay”. Why would he. He found a suitor with pockets just as large who was on the cusp of winning a title. He gets a ring, the Sox get a top 50 prospect and their RF for the next 5 seasons who will be a top or middle of the order hitter. Lamenting the loss of Mookie is one thing, but not seeing the reality and the fact that Bloom did incredibly well here is just sour grapes. 2020 would have sucked for the Sox with Mookie as well. Then, he would have been a FA and you could have gotten a 32nd draft pick rather than what you got this time around. The fact that you found a younger replacement under cheap control who can be an above average to all star level player is a great move. Snagging Downs with him is a winning GM move. Moving half of Price’s bloated contract is an elite move.

 

As a GM, players are assets. You want to sell high on them, pay them less than their worth and move on before they become negative value. Bloom is an expert at this. The Mookie deal was straight up gold

 

I think you throw around the phrase “need to rebuild” rather freely. It doesn’t always apply just because a team won less than 95 games...

[mvp 78]

I think you throw around the phrase “need to rebuild” rather freely. It doesn’t always apply just because a team won less than 95 games...

 

I believe his idea is that the org depth was trash and that at some point there needed to be a focus on rebuilding the farm. I don't believe the MLB squad needed a "rebuild."

[notin]

It's possible to be pissed off at the Red Sox ownership for not going all out to keep him, and at the same time give credit to Bloom for doing a good job with the trade.

 

It also might be possible for ownership to stop DD short of re-signing Betts at all costs because they decided he had spent his allowance.

 

I know you take the position that Betts’ contract is independent of the ones given to Price, Sale and Eovaldi, but that doesn’t mean Henry felt that way. His attitude might be “Hey I’d have another $362 million to spend, but you already doled that out to Price and Sale”.

[mvp 78]

It also might be possible for ownership to stop DD short of re-signing Betts at all costs because they decided he had spent his allowance.

 

I know you take the position that Betts’ contract is independent of the ones given to Price, Sale and Eovaldi, but that doesn’t mean Henry felt that way. His attitude might be “Hey I’d have another $362 million to spend, but you already doled that out to Price and Sale”.

 

I bet JH has a budget and once they got to the tipping point it was a "you can't get there from here" moment.

 

I wonder if JH spends less time fretting about particular roster moves than we do. To him, the budget is the budget. The ultimate value is the cash that comes in and the market value of the club. He probably doesn't even know who Tristan Casas is.

[Bellhorn04]

It also might be possible for ownership to stop DD short of re-signing Betts at all costs because they decided he had spent his allowance.

 

I know you take the position that Betts’ contract is independent of the ones given to Price, Sale and Eovaldi, but that doesn’t mean Henry felt that way. His attitude might be “Hey I’d have another $362 million to spend, but you already doled that out to Price and Sale”.

 

It's all Ben's fault, actually.

 

1) Horrendous free agent signings.

2) Left the team with no top of the line pitching.

 

(I'm half-kidding.)

[mvp 78]

The minors definitely needed help. But you don’t tear down the parent club to rebuild that unless money is a major factor. And the Sox have NEVER operated that way...

 

Well, the Sox haven't yet torn down the club. They dealt Mookie because they couldn't re-sign him. They replaced him with a starting RFer and filled an org need at 2b and C. They dumped Hembree and Workman because the team was out of it and neither were in their long term plans.

 

Until they move Devers or Xander, it's not a tear down IMO.

[notin]

I bet JH has a budget and once they got to the tipping point it was a "you can't get there from here" moment.

 

I wonder if JH spends less time fretting about particular roster moves than we do. To him, the budget is the budget. The ultimate value is the cash that comes in and the market value of the club. He probably doesn't even know who Tristan Casas is.

 

Henry has always said he is a Basebell Guy. But at the end of the day, he does not want to spend $240mill and miss the post-season. And at some point, pouring more money on to Betts makes a situation where even making the post-season still creates a money-losing venture.

 

I don't know where Henry stands agaist other owners regarding net worth. But his willingness to spend has been a godsend for this franchise, and if he suddenly reaches that limit and won't allow any more spending - which he has done before - I really can't blame him.

 

And as Dombrowski is an experienced GM, he needs to know how far he can take an owner's budget. And since he has worked with Henry before, he shouldn't be too surprised when Henry says he has spent enough and needs to dial back. Honestly, if a GM needs more than $180 million to build a winning team, exactly how good is he?

[mvp 78]

It's all Ben's fault, actually.

 

1) Horrendous free agent signings.

2) Left the team with no top of the line pitching.

 

(I'm half-kidding.)

 

What if we went back to the 2010-2011 offseason and did a do-over? Keep Rizzo. Don't sign CC. Use prospects to trade for Greinke. Re-sign Beltre.

[mvp 78]

I don't know where Henry stands agaist other owners regarding net worth. But his willingness to spend has been a godsend for this franchise, and if he suddenly reaches that limit and won't allow any more spending - which he has done before - I really can't blame him.

 

But if he really were paying attention, wouldn't he know that he couldn't extend Sale, re-sign Eovaldi AND extend Betts?

[Bellhorn04]

Honestly, if a GM needs more than $180 million to build a winning team, exactly how good is he?

 

It depends on which franchise you're talking about and the situation you're in.

 

-Epstein is a great GM but has spent piles of money.

-Friedman is a great GM but has spent piles of money since he joined the Dodgers.

[notin]

It depends on which franchise you're talking about and the situation you're in.

 

-Epstein is a great GM but has spent piles of money.

-Friedman is a great GM but has spent piles of money since he joined the Dodgers.

 

While they both spent oodles of money, both have also built winners without spending $180 million. Friedman built some extremely good teams in Tampa for far less. The 2016 Cubs had a payroll closer to $170 million, and had only 3 players on the team inherited by Epstein (Javier Baez, Willson Contreras, and Matt Cszur)...

[Bellhorn04]

While they both spent oodles of money, both have also built winners without spending $180 million. Friedman built some extremely good teams in Tampa for far less. The 2016 Cubs had a payroll closer to $170 million, and had only 3 players on the team inherited by Epstein (Javier Baez, Willson Contreras, and Matt Cszur)...

 

Right, but the 2016 edition of the Cubs was a one-off where everything aligned perfectly.

 

When Theo joined the Cubs he was basically given the green light to tank and rebuild.

 

After 2016 is when things got tougher and more expensive.

[notin]

But if he really were paying attention, wouldn't he know that he couldn't extend Sale, re-sign Eovaldi AND extend Betts?

 

I started this whole "Won't be able to sign Betts" point when Price signed. But yes, that also should have been a consideration....

[notin]

Right, but the 2016 edition of the Cubs was a one-off where everything aligned perfectly.

 

When Theo joined the Cubs he was basically given the green light to tank and rebuild.

 

After 2016 is when things got tougher and more expensive.

 

None of which counters my point...

[Bellhorn04]

None of which counters my point...

 

So your point is that he had one successful season where he only spent $170 million?

[notin]

So your point is that he had one successful season where he only spent $170 million?

 

I could go back and find all of his payrolls. Although at some point a $170 mill payroll itself becomes excessive.

 

And it also matters what is considered a successful season.

 

But would you agree that a good M can build a team with a budgets of $180 milliion or less?

[Bellhorn04]

I could go back and find all of his payrolls. Although at some point a $170 mill payroll itself becomes excessive.

 

And it also matters what is considered a successful season.

 

But would you agree that a good M can build a team with a budgets of $180 milliion or less?

 

I would agree with that.

 

But the next question is, if you're the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, and you can afford to spend more than $180 million, shouldn't you do so?

[mvp 78]

I would agree with that.

 

But the next question is, if you're the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, and you can afford to spend more than $180 million, shouldn't you do so?

 

No, every team should be DIY. Big budgets aren't DIY.

[notin]

I would agree with that.

 

But the next question is, if you're the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, and you can afford to spend more than $180 million, shouldn't you do so?

 

No.

 

You should spend it when you need to, but not just because.

 

Should the Yankees go all in for, say, Bauer, Springer and Realmuto without considering future arb/extension costs for Judge and Torres?

[Bellhorn04]

No.

 

You should spend it when you need to, but not just because.

 

Should the Yankees go all in for, say, Bauer, Springer and Realmuto without considering future arb/extension costs for Judge and Torres?

 

Of course I agree that they shouldn't.

 

But if we're using $180 million as a threshold, the Yankees have exceeded that every year for a long time.

 

And they can easily afford it, because of their revenues.

 

If they're spending less than $180 million, that means a lot of money is being pocketed by Hal and the other shareholders.

[mvp 78]

No.

 

You should spend it when you need to, but not just because.

 

Should the Yankees go all in for, say, Bauer, Springer and Realmuto without considering future arb/extension costs for Judge and Torres?

 

Yes, they are a loser team that hasn't won a WS in forever.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

No.

 

You should spend it when you need to, but not just because.

 

Should the Yankees go all in for, say, Bauer, Springer and Realmuto without considering future arb/extension costs for Judge and Torres?

 

Nope; they should sign Bauer, Realmuto and trade for Lindor. That might get it done.

 

And if it did? Yankee fans, Yankee profiteers and the MLB would all be ok with it, and future money issues would be worth it for one. more. banner.