Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[notin]

Well yes. But as a fan, I would much rather watch the RS fail to win a championship with expensive great players than watch them lose with crappy inexpensive ones.

 

But would you rather watch them lose with great players or win without great players?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

But would you rather watch them lose with great players or win without great players?

 

In fairness to history, the latter is rare. Just looking at this century alone, there are maybe three out of the last 20 world champs that didn't have either an MVP, Cy Young or Hall of Famer contributing: '15 KC, '05 ChiSox, '02 Angels.

 

I actually agree with posters who prefer core players that spend entire primes with the home team. Identifying and rooting for regulars is part of what makes it fun being a fan. I guess I'm leery of a new GM using the old Tampa strategy, rotating rosters every two years and always trading guys at peak value before they're due top dollar.

[Bellhorn04]

I actually agree with posters who prefer core players that spend entire primes with the home team. Identifying and rooting for regulars is part of what makes it fun being a fan. I guess I'm leery of a new GM using the old Tampa strategy, rotating rosters every two years and always trading guys at peak value before they're due top dollar.

 

I'm confident Bloom will be able to follow in the footsteps of his old boss Friedman.

[jad]

In fairness to history, the latter is rare. Just looking at this century alone, there are maybe three out of the last 20 world champs that didn't have either an MVP, Cy Young or Hall of Famer contributing: '15 KC, '05 ChiSox, '02 Angels.

 

I actually agree with posters who prefer core players that spend entire primes with the home team. Identifying and rooting for regulars is part of what makes it fun being a fan. I guess I'm leery of a new GM using the old Tampa strategy, rotating rosters every two years and always trading guys at peak value before they're due top dollar.

 

100% agree.

[notin]

In fairness to history, the latter is rare. Just looking at this century alone, there are maybe three out of the last 20 world champs that didn't have either an MVP, Cy Young or Hall of Famer contributing: '15 KC, '05 ChiSox, '02 Angels.

 

I actually agree with posters who prefer core players that spend entire primes with the home team. Identifying and rooting for regulars is part of what makes it fun being a fan. I guess I'm leery of a new GM using the old Tampa strategy, rotating rosters every two years and always trading guys at peak value before they're due top dollar.

 

Oh I wouldn't go so far as to say winning a Cy Young Awards makes a pitcher a great player. It means he had a good season.

 

But let's get real. Eric Gagne has one.

 

As does Mark Davis, Pat Hentgen, Rick Porcello, Dallas Keuchel, RA Dickey, Brandon Webb. Are these really great players?

[cp176]

But would you rather watch them lose with great players or win without great players?

 

This would seem to be a softball lobbed right across the heart of the plate but in fact it isn't for some of us.

[cp176]

In fairness to history, the latter is rare. Just looking at this century alone, there are maybe three out of the last 20 world champs that didn't have either an MVP, Cy Young or Hall of Famer contributing: '15 KC, '05 ChiSox, '02 Angels.

 

I actually agree with posters who prefer core players that spend entire primes with the home team. Identifying and rooting for regulars is part of what makes it fun being a fan. I guess I'm leery of a new GM using the old Tampa strategy, rotating rosters every two years and always trading guys at peak value before they're due top dollar.

 

This post sums up exactly how I feel. If winning simply meant going about your business using a revolving door concept built around any major budgetary constraints, I likely would find another sport to watch. Regardless of how well Tampa teams played under Bloom's guidance, they had little to no interest to me. I was impressed with them winning just not particularly my kind of team. Based on their attendance records, it would seem that I wasn't alone. We'll see how it works out for Bloom in Boston but i'm just not all in at this point in time. The best news for him right now ought to be that Chris Sale has actually started to throw and that things are going fine for him.

[Bellhorn04]

I think it's a little paranoid to be concerned that because we hired Bloom we're going to operate like the Rays now.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think it's a little paranoid to be concerned that because we hired Bloom we're going to operate like the Rays now.

 

No disagreement there, but reality is perception.

[S5Dewey]

I think it's a little paranoid to be concerned that because we hired Bloom we're going to operate like the Rays now.

 

Why would JH hire Bloom to be GM and expect Bloom to do something different than what he's done in the past? If JH wanted someone to do things differently than Bloom did in TB wouldn't he have hired someone else?

After all, JH hired DD to do what he'd done in the past and that's exactly what DD did.

[Kimmi]

The Price deal was fine (though they maybe should have gotten Greinke). The Sale/Eovaldi contracts are the bigger concern.

 

Even though I was against that contract, I can agree that the Price deal was fine. We needed the pitching. I do not agree that the Sale and Eovaldi contracts are the bigger concern. Perhaps in hindsight, but they were good deals when they occurred, though a year too long in both cases.

[Kimmi]

I wonder if he explored the trade market for starters instead of closers...

 

^^^

[Kimmi]

Baseball is the ultimate team sport. Obviously, one superstar cannot carry a mediocre team to the top . But MLB is also part of the entertainment industry. And that superstar certainly enhances the entertainment. Each owner will decide where he wants to draw the line with spending. And that line can greatly effect the quality of the product being offered. You can surely see that if you try . By the way , the Sox DID win a championship , with Mookie being a very big part of it . It was not that long ago , as I recall .

 

Yes, baseball is most certainly part of the entertainment industry. However, you do not build teams based on who will put fans in the seats. You build teams based on getting the most wins for the team, on the whole, for the short and long terms. That was always the big point of contention between Theo and Lucchino.

 

Henry spends plenty on this team. He does not need to sign a superstar for entertainment purposes. If the team is winning, the fans will be entertained, superstar or not. I think there are lot of fans who root more for the unsung hero types over the superstars. I know I do. Don't get me wrong. I will root for players like Mookie on my team too, but I think it is a huge mistake to give any player that type of contract.

[Kimmi]

Betts also led the Red Sox to first place three straight years for the only time in their history 2016-18, pacing the team in WAR each season and finishing 2nd, 6th and 1st in AL MVP voting. Beyond the obvious tickets sales and fan adoration he generates, Mookie is exactly the type of core player a big market franchise covets when building for sustained contention.

 

Risky Business? Princeton can use a guy like Joel...

 

Mookie did not take the Sox to the playoffs by himself. And as I just posted, you do not build a team based off of who will generate ticket sales.

[Kimmi]

Well yes. But as a fan, I would much rather watch the RS fail to win a championship with expensive great players than watch them lose with crappy inexpensive ones.

 

How are those our only options?

 

If you're talking about this year alone, that's a very shortsighted view.

 

How about winning a championship with expensive great players versus winning a championship with great home grown players? I choose the latter.

 

How about not winning a championship with one superstar who doesn't have a supporting cast versus winning a championship with a cast of great home grown and inexpensive free agents. I again choose the latter.

[Kimmi]

In fairness to history, the latter is rare. Just looking at this century alone, there are maybe three out of the last 20 world champs that didn't have either an MVP, Cy Young or Hall of Famer contributing: '15 KC, '05 ChiSox, '02 Angels.

 

I actually agree with posters who prefer core players that spend entire primes with the home team. Identifying and rooting for regulars is part of what makes it fun being a fan. I guess I'm leery of a new GM using the old Tampa strategy, rotating rosters every two years and always trading guys at peak value before they're due top dollar.

 

I think by 'great players' he meant the big name superstars. You can have great players without having all the fanfare and expensive contract to go along with it.

 

I hate losing our players to free agency or through trade as much as anyone else does. If I were GM, I'd probably continue to re-sign them for their entire careers, based on sentimentality alone. That said, it's about the team, not about the individual player. Sometimes, the choices are tough.

 

I remember people used to joke about Theo having ice water in his veins because he wouldn't re-sign his free agents for what they were asking. It turns out that he was absolutely right in most of his decisions.

[Kimmi]

I think it's a little paranoid to be concerned that because we hired Bloom we're going to operate like the Rays now.

 

100%. Henry will still spend, no doubt about that. But we will also have a farm system.

[Kimmi]

Why would JH hire Bloom to be GM and expect Bloom to do something different than what he's done in the past? If JH wanted someone to do things differently than Bloom did in TB wouldn't he have hired someone else?

After all, JH hired DD to do what he'd done in the past and that's exactly what DD did.

 

In terms of overall philosophy, yes. I think the concern was over payroll, and with Henry suddenly becoming a cheapskate.

 

I think we will have the best of both worlds.

[notin]

This would seem to be a softball lobbed right across the heart of the plate but in fact it isn't for some of us.

 

Oh it’s not a softball lob.

 

The idea of watching great players lose was the business model of the Cubs for decades..

[notin]

100%. Henry will still spend, no doubt about that. But we will also have a farm system.

 

I expect Henry to still spend. I just think he wants a GM who doesn’t go all in all at once with regards to payroll and emptying the farm system thus leaving the team as the huge steaming pile of payroll we are watching today...

[cp176]

Oh it’s not a softball lob.

 

The idea of watching great players lose was the business model of the Cubs for decades..

 

Then maybe they weren't all that great or perhaps there weren't enough of them or possibly their individual greatness wasn't surrounded by enough all around talent. I could go on forever. It was most assuredly a softball lob. As a matter of fact, you provided me with my second lifetime homer. thanks - it is all about the words we choose after all isn't it. My great players in some people's imaginations become suprestars. Who knew.

[notin]

Then maybe they weren't all that great or perhaps there weren't enough of them or possibly their individual greatness wasn't surrounded by enough all around talent. I could go on forever. It was most assuredly a softball lob. As a matter of fact, you provided me with my second lifetime homer. thanks - it is all about the words we choose after all isn't it. My great players in some people's imaginations become suprestars. Who knew.

 

Oh they were terrible at surrounding Ernie Banks, Billy Williams and Ryne Sandberg with talent . (Ok, Sandberg did play on some good teams.). But that’s the entire point.

 

And that was back when retaining your star didn’t cost $360 million...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yes, baseball is most certainly part of the entertainment industry. However, you do not build teams based on who will put fans in the seats. You build teams based on getting the most wins for the team, on the whole, for the short and long terms. That was always the big point of contention between Theo and Lucchino.

 

Henry spends plenty on this team. He does not need to sign a superstar for entertainment purposes. If the team is winning, the fans will be entertained, superstar or not. I think there are lot of fans who root more for the unsung hero types over the superstars. I know I do. Don't get me wrong. I will root for players like Mookie on my team too, but I think it is a huge mistake to give any player that type of contract.

 

I agree, if by unsung you mean "dirtdogs" -- the solid players who seem to get more out of their abilities than expected (according to pro and amateur pundits), and who always at least look like they care as much as the fans do. When you're making millions of dollars to play a game at a level that millions of fans can only wish they could, then you'd better hustle.

 

Of all the team sports, baseball is unique: the sum deeds of isolated individuals. Mookie didn't pitch, but he was the best player on the best team in the AL East for three straight years (based on WAR)... and all five full seasons of his career in Boston. It doesn't take Bloom to tell us -- like he did after the trade -- that the Red Sox wouldn't have been as good without him.

[cp176]

I agree, if by unsung you mean "dirtdogs" -- the solid players who seem to get more out of their abilities than expected (according to pro and amateur pundits), and who always at least look like they care as much as the fans do. When you're making millions of dollars to play a game at a level that millions of fans can only wish they could, then you'd better hustle.

 

Of all the team sports, baseball is unique: the sum deeds of isolated individuals. Mookie didn't pitch, but he was the best player on the best team in the AL East for three straight years (based on WAR)... and all five full seasons of his career in Boston. It doesn't take Bloom to tell us -- like he did after the trade -- that the Red Sox wouldn't have been as good without him.

 

But the point made is excellent except that those tough assed dirt dogs who just get it done are the real superstars of which Mookie Betts still qualified as being.

[cp176]

Oh they were terrible at surrounding Ernie Banks, Billy Williams and Ryne Sandberg with talent . (Ok, Sandberg did play on some good teams.). But that’s the entire point.

 

And that was back when retaining your star didn’t cost $360 million...

 

 

semantics, linguistics, blah blah blah ...

[notin]

semantics, linguistics, blah blah blah ...

 

You’re not even making sense any more, cpl....

[a700hitter]

Why would JH hire Bloom to be GM and expect Bloom to do something different than what he's done in the past? If JH wanted someone to do things differently than Bloom did in TB wouldn't he have hired someone else?

After all, JH hired DD to do what he'd done in the past and that's exactly what DD did.

When Friedman left Tampa for the LA Dodgers, he didn't operate like he was still in Tampa.

[notin]

When Friedman left Tampa for the LA Dodgers, he didn't operate like he was still in Tampa.

 

He did much better with actual resources at his disposal. No GM from Tampa can give Mookie that contract...

[harmony]

Then maybe they weren't all that great or perhaps there weren't enough of them or possibly their individual greatness wasn't surrounded by enough all around talent. I could go on forever. It was most assuredly a softball lob. As a matter of fact, you provided me with my second lifetime homer. thanks - it is all about the words we choose after all isn't it. My great players in some people's imaginations become suprestars. Who knew.

The 1998 Seattle Mariners went 76-85 with a club that included Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez and Randy Johnson. Even lefties James Moyer and Jeff Fassero posted bWAR of 5.6 and 4.1, respectively:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1998.shtml

[cp176]

The 1998 Seattle Mariners went 76-85 with a club that included Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez and Randy Johnson. Even lefties James Moyer and Jeff Fassero posted bWAR of 5.6 and 4.1, respectively:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1998.shtml

 

Weird things happen from time to time I guess. I don't disagree that from time to time teams with what look to be incredible amounts of talent don't get it done. what I object to actually are the posts like this that get dug up to prove what we all know happens from time to time. There are too many mitigating factors to be considered when trying to figure out why sometimes great teams just can't get it done. Give me those guys and a good pitching staff and I would take my chances against your team anyday.