Chris Sale needs Tommy John Surgery

[Kimmi]

No..

 

But did this one surgery make any real difference? Also no.

 

But it does convey the message that people with money will get the medicines they want while the rest of us scrounge for ventilators and rubbing alcohol...

 

Will this one surgery make a real difference on the whole? No.

 

Might it make the difference between life and death for a health care worker who doesn't get that mask? Yes.

 

Is the life of that health care worker more valuable than an extra year of a baseball player's career? Yes.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, all I'm saying here is this: Pretend you're a MLB pitcher for a second. You're told that your UCL is busted and you need Tommy John. You could either wait 6 months (which I think is exaggerating btw), miss all of 2020 and 2021, or do it now, and have a chance to pitch for a bulk of the 2021 season. You could either lose 2 years of service time, and have your next contract be based off people not knowing what you are able to do post-op, and sign for far less money, or you could do it now, come back in June 2021 and pitch your way into a respectable contract.

 

I'm not saying it's right to be selfish. I'm saying baseball is a business, and everybody involved is in it for the money. You think people are saying things because they have a vested interest in it? That's absolutely true. They have money at stake. How would you like it if this were 1990 right now, not 2020, and you as a high school teacher would really be SOL right now and not able to work at all?

 

If I am Chris Sale or Noah Syndegaard, I'm not doing the surgery now. I have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of my life.

 

If I, as a teacher, for some reason needed TJS to perform my job, then I would probably get it done now. For anyone who is middle class, not being able to work for a period of time is the definition of 'affecting one's livelihood'.

 

The surgery is elective for anyone who can afford not to have it done. It is essential for anyone who cannot afford to not have it done.

[Bellhorn04]

If I am Chris Sale or Noah Syndegaard, I'm not doing the surgery now. I have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of my life.

 

But is it all about money? Pitching is what these guys for a career. And it's a short career to begin with. Putting off the surgery will make it even shorter.

[illinoisredsox]

If I am Chris Sale or Noah Syndegaard, I'm not doing the surgery now. I have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of my life.

 

If I, as a teacher, for some reason needed TJS to perform my job, then I would probably get it done now. For anyone who is middle class, not being able to work for a period of time is the definition of 'affecting one's livelihood'.

 

The surgery is elective for anyone who can afford not to have it done. It is essential for anyone who cannot afford to not have it done.

 

So who decides the definition of “afford”? How much is that? Or, using a non-economic view, what is that?

 

I agree it’s a bad look, but that’s a very slippery slope.

Edited March 29, 2020 by illinoisredsox

[Kimmi]

And somehow it was performed. I have no problem with it, and an orthopedic surgeon could make the case that it was an emergency because if it healed wrong it could result in irreversible damage.

 

What qualifies as an emergency? If I have a bullet lodged in my leg that will not kill me, is it elective surgery to have it removed? Am I supposed to let it heal over and walk around with the bullet in my leg? With these TJ's, the worst case scenario is that it is a grey area. It really shouldn't cause anyone any angst, but people always need to be pissed off about something.

 

The standard of whether a surgery is essential or not is being left open to the interpretation of the doctor performing the surgery. That being the case, a doctor can pretty much interpret that standard to fit his and his patient's agenda.

 

Here is the standard outlined in Florida's ban on non-essential surgeries:

 

“medically unnecessary, non-urgent or non-emergency procedure or surgery which, if delayed, does not place a patient’s immediate health, safety, or well-being at risk, or will, if delayed, not contribute to the worsening of a serious or life-threatening medical condition,” that standard is being left to the interpretation of doctors."

 

I don't see how TJS for pitchers fits that standard. Even if the condition might worsen, which I really doubt would happen if the pitchers followed the resting guidelines of their doctors, it is not worsening to a point of being a "serious or life-threatening medical condition".

 

Orthopedic doctors that were questioned who are not directly vested in these cases say that TJS is absolutely elective.

[Kimmi]

If Syndergaard's surgery should not have been performed, the hospital and the surgeons are as much at fault as he is, if not more. They could have said no.

 

I think that the doctor who performed the surgery is more at fault than Syndegaard is.

[Thunder]

If I am Chris Sale or Noah Syndegaard, I'm not doing the surgery now. I have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of my life.

 

If I, as a teacher, for some reason needed TJS to perform my job, then I would probably get it done now. For anyone who is middle class, not being able to work for a period of time is the definition of 'affecting one's livelihood'.

 

The surgery is elective for anyone who can afford not to have it done. It is essential for anyone who cannot afford to not have it done.

 

But is it all about money? Pitching is what these guys for a career. And it's a short career to begin with. Putting off the surgery will make it even shorter.

 

I don't care if you make minimum wage or $15M per year. You have the right to pursue income, and delaying this surgery affects the future income of both of these guys.

 

And Kimmi, I wasn't suggesting you needed TJS for your profession. I was trying to make a comparison.

[Kimmi]

But is it all about money? Pitching is what these guys for a career. And it's a short career to begin with. Putting off the surgery will make it even shorter.

 

I understand that. I understand where the pitchers are coming from. I really do. If I were in their shoes, I would really want to have the surgery sooner than later. It's a big sacrifice on their part to postpone the surgery. I get that. This is where people need to be a little more selfless.

 

Somebody brought up the idea of allowing these players to have the surgery, but then having them make a significant donation to a hospital or to a food bank to help with the crisis. I'm not sure if that would make the surgery okay, but it would make me feel a lot better about it.

[Thunder]

I understand that. I understand where the pitchers are coming from. I really do. If I were in their shoes, I would really want to have the surgery sooner than later. It's a big sacrifice on their part to postpone the surgery. I get that. This is where people need to be a little more selfless.

 

Somebody brought up the idea of allowing these players to have the surgery, but then having them make a significant donation to a hospital or to a food bank to help with the crisis. I'm not sure if that would make the surgery okay, but it would make me feel a lot better about it.

 

I'm fine with that, and I'm sure they would donate more than they had to

[illinoisredsox]

The standard of whether a surgery is essential or not is being left open to the interpretation of the doctor performing the surgery. That being the case, a doctor can pretty much interpret that standard to fit his and his patient's agenda.

 

Here is the standard outlined in Florida's ban on non-essential surgeries:

 

“medically unnecessary, non-urgent or non-emergency procedure or surgery which, if delayed, does not place a patient’s immediate health, safety, or well-being at risk, or will, if delayed, not contribute to the worsening of a serious or life-threatening medical condition,” that standard is being left to the interpretation of doctors."

 

I don't see how TJS for pitchers fits that standard. Even if the condition might worsen, which I really doubt would happen if the pitchers followed the resting guidelines of their doctors, it is not worsening to a point of being a "serious or life-threatening medical condition".

 

Orthopedic doctors that were questioned who are not directly vested in these cases say that TJS is absolutely elective.

 

A layman’s reading of that definition would also exclude teachers who, for some reason, needed TJS to perform their job.

[Kimmi]

So who decides the definition of “afford”? How much is that? Or, using a non-economic view, what is that?

 

I agree it’s a bad look, but that’s a very slippery slope.

 

I agree, it's a slippery slope. That would be very much open to interpretation as well. There are no easy answers.

[Kimmi]

I'm fine with that, and I'm sure they would donate more than they had to

 

But have they? Will they if it's not a requirement of having the surgery (and I don't think that is legally possible)?

[Thunder]

But have they? Will they if it's not a requirement of having the surgery (and I don't think that is legally possible)?

 

I'm tired of arguing this with you. Can't we just agree to disagree?

[Kimmi]

A layman’s reading of that definition would also exclude teachers who, for some reason, needed TJS to perform their job.

 

Fair point.

 

So, I would not get the surgery.

[Thunder]

Well, Sale had the surgery today in LA. Guess that solves that debate

[notin]

Well, Sale had the surgery today in LA. Guess that solves that debate

 

And not sure there will be a season for him to miss anyway...

[Thunder]

And not sure there will be a season for him to miss anyway...

 

No, but the question all along was how much of 2021 was he going to miss?

[a700hitter]

I understand that. I understand where the pitchers are coming from. I really do. If I were in their shoes, I would really want to have the surgery sooner than later. It's a big sacrifice on their part to postpone the surgery. I get that. This is where people need to be a little more selfless.

 

Somebody brought up the idea of allowing these players to have the surgery, but then having them make a significant donation to a hospital or to a food bank to help with the crisis. I'm not sure if that would make the surgery okay, but it would make me feel a lot better about it.

What if it wasn't Chris Sale or Syndegaard? Let's say it is a kid in AA who is 23 years old looking at 2 years of recovery at best. He's supposed to sacrifice his livelihood? He has no education or training outside of baseball. He only knows how to throw a baseball. I am sorry, but that isn't elective surgery. Edited March 31, 2020 by a700hitter

[Thunder]

What is it wasn't Chris Sale or Syndegaard? Let's say it is a kid in AA who is 23 years old looking at 2 years of recovery at best. He's supposed to sacrifice his livelihood? He has no education or training outside of baseball. He only knows how to throw a baseball. I am sorry, but that isn't elective surgery.

 

Damn. That's worthy of a mic drop

[notin]

What is it wasn't Chris Sale or Syndegaard? Let's say it is a kid in AA who is 23 years old looking at 2 years of recovery at best. He's supposed to sacrifice his livelihood? He has no education or training outside of baseball. He only knows how to throw a baseball. I am sorry, but that isn't elective surgery.

 

Did Jacko give a definition? Assuming he has a few minutes.

 

Surgery is a big deal, and apparently it falls into two categories: life-saving and elective. What I gather, part of it is also the urgency. If Sale or Syndergaard or the 23yo kid in AA needs surgery, they don’t need it today and can wait a bit. I mean, focusing on pro athletes is one thing. Should precious and increasingly scarce medical supplies also be used for every construction worker who needs a double hernia operation?

[a700hitter]

Did Jacko give a definition? Assuming he has a few minutes.

 

Surgery is a big deal, and apparently it falls into two categories: life-saving and elective. What I gather, part of it is also the urgency. If Sale or Syndergaard or the 23yo kid in AA needs surgery, they don’t need it today and can wait a bit. I mean, focusing on pro athletes is one thing. Should precious and increasingly scarce medical supplies also be used for every construction worker who needs a double hernia operation?

There is no indication that precious and scarce resources are being used. Goodness, so dramatic. As for the double hernia operation, yeah depending on the severity and the possibility of whether it could strangulate, those surgeries should probably be performed.

[notin]

There is no indication that precious and scarce resources are being used. Goodness, so dramatic. As for the double hernia operation, yeah depending on the severity and the possibility of whether it could strangulate, those surgeries should probably be performed.

 

The thing is, those types of surgeries are being delayed.

 

My wife was to have surgery on March 20. Nothing major, but an OR was required. The hospital canceled the surgery on her...

[Thunder]

The thing is, those types of surgeries are being delayed.

 

My wife was to have surgery on March 20. Nothing major, but an OR was required. The hospital canceled the surgery on her...

 

Ok, but these hospitals didn't

[notin]

Ok, but these hospitals didn't

 

I know. Because money talked.

 

Hey I want Sale back on the mound, too. But a pandemic might not be the time for preferential medical treatment...

[a700hitter]

The thing is, those types of surgeries are being delayed.

 

My wife was to have surgery on March 20. Nothing major, but an OR was required. The hospital canceled the surgery on her...

Each case should get determined on its own. Maybe your wife's surgery was going to use resources that the hospital was going to redeploy for Coronavirus care. Dr. Andrews probably has his own team of nurses and anesthesiologists that would not be working with Coronavirus patients. In that case, delaying those surgeries would be pointless virtue signaling for PR purposes --- but isn't this what the Left excels at?

[notin]

Each case should get determined on its own. Maybe your wife's surgery was going to use resources that the hospital was going to redeploy for Coronavirus care. Dr. Andrews probably has his own team of nurses and anesthesiologists that would not be working with Coronavirus patients. In that case, delaying those surgeries would be pointless virtue signaling for PR purposes --- but isn't this what the Left excels at?

 

Oh I’ve been saying all along Andrews and ElAttrache (who I think was the surgeon here) won’t be taking time from their corona caseload. But it is a negative PR. And, like it or not, these are elective surgeries, which is why both pitchers had to relocate to get them done. NY and MA wouldn’t allow it.

[Thunder]

Oh I’ve been saying all along Andrews and ElAttrache (who I think was the surgeon here) won’t be taking time from their corona caseload. But it is a negative PR. And, like it or not, these are elective surgeries, which is why both pitchers had to relocate to get them done. NY and MA wouldn’t allow it.

 

Look man, you can say that all you want, and you have been doing just that all day, but you're just flat out wrong. By allowing them to be performed, they must be considered essential. There's no other way around it. Seems pretty clear to the rest of us

[mvp 78]

Look man, you can say that all you want, and you have been doing just that all day, but you're just flat out wrong. By allowing them to be performed, they must be considered essential. There's no other way around it. Seems pretty clear to the rest of us

 

Notin is 100% right on this IMO. TJS is definitely elective surgery. He could retire and live a perfectly normal life without the surgery.

[Thunder]

Notin is 100% right on this IMO. TJS is definitely elective surgery. He could retire and live a perfectly normal life without the surgery.

 

Ok, but at the end of the day, our opinions don't matter. All that matters is what the doctors and the regulators that oversee them think

[a700hitter]

Oh I’ve been saying all along Andrews and ElAttrache (who I think was the surgeon here) won’t be taking time from their corona caseload. But it is a negative PR. And, like it or not, these are elective surgeries, which is why both pitchers had to relocate to get them done. NY and MA wouldn’t allow it.

But they did the surgeries and the hospital didn't object. Their employers didn't object, so I wouldn't put any of this burden on the athlete as their healthcare is contractually under the direction of their employers. If Trump-hating John Henry and Fred Wilpon don't care about the possible negative PR, I don't think it is a bad look for the athletes. If it bothers you that much, boo Sale when he returns. Maybe the Red Sox can develop a nice virtue-signaling ribbon for the coronavirus that they can sell on the MLB store.