2018 Red Sox cheating scandal

[jung]

JBJ had a hot streak. He's had numerous hot streaks during his career.

 

A hot streak? That looked like a JBJ hot streak? I have seen every one of JBJ's hot streaks. He works up to them. Some of his chronic swing maladies correct themselves, a few more correct themselves and eventually he is on fire. Then all of those swing maladies creep back one at a time and by the end of a 162 game season, his numbers reflect what he in fact is, a hitter of modest means AT BEST.

 

That is not what happened either leading up to or in the 2018 ALCS. He just went off and he was ahead of FB's he had no business being ahead of. He was ahead on FB's that normally beat him like a drum because he can't get around on them. JBJ isn't good enough to get around on FB's like that, not even in the middle of a classic JBJ hot streak he can't.

[notin]

What do we know? That the Astros Offensive numbers went through the roof in 2017 and they won a championship. We know that the Sox offensive numbers went through the roof in 2018 and they won a championship. The connective thread to these two phenomenon, Alex Cora. They managed to replace without missing a beat the greatest middle of the order bat likely of all time, David Ortiz.

 

I know we want to believe that JD came onto the team and all its hitters genuflected to JD and that was that. Really....Did JD look like a God of hitting in 2019? How do you explain JBJ going off in the 2018 ALCS. I have watched probably more ML AB's by that stiff than anybody on this forum. His swing sucks...it has always sucked and it will always suck. Pearce....Pearce goes off in the WS. Based on what? We got to see the real Pearce when he turned into a pumpkin at midnight and the fat f*** showed up for 2019.

 

We also know, not guess but know that if you give professional hitters a system using in game, real time video and electronics that allows them to understand with high confidence that either a FB or an offspeed/breaking pitch is coming, you have basically given the hitters an advantage that literally corrupts the game at its core. Though its my opinion, you literally should just stop playing the games if you are going to do that. Just stop playing or call it something else because it is no longer baseball.

 

I cannot imagine a greater advantage for one group of players over another in any professional team sport, ANY PROFESSIONAL TEAM SPORT. Football and Spygate can't touch it with a ten foot pole. A corrupted NBA official can't even touch it.

 

 

But again, you don’t KNOW any of this. You might be right, but you also might be wrong about everything Right now, we KNOW about the Astros and Cora’s involvement. But on the Sox, all we know is an anonymous person says they cheated to. Do we really even know it was a player?

 

Some people have already created this whole scenario where Henry and Kennedy brought in Cora specifically to cheat and Manfred is working his tail off to keep their names out of it. Could that all be true? Sure. But it also actually might not be. Heck when word came out the other day that the investigation into the Red Sox cheating scandal wasn’t revealing much, how many on here reacted that this was proof of Manfred’s cover up? And how many considered that maybe they didn’t cheat at all?

 

But please don’t go using Bradley’s and Pearce’s postseason as proof. Didn’t the original charges state this was regular season only? And only with runners on second? Is that even enough of a sample to cause the team’s offense to explode?

 

Not to mention, when you start using small samples as “proof” that something happened, you enter some really scary territory. So Bradley’s 3 for 15 n the ALCS is “proof” he had to be cheating? HE HIT .200!!! And even then, is improved performance always prof of cheating? One has to wonder at what point in 1961 should people have questioned if Roger Maris was on steroids, despite many of them not existing yet.

 

I’m not saying this team is clean. And this scandal has done wonders for this dead message board this off-season. But that doesn’t mean maybe some of the assumptions don’t need to be reeled in every now and then...

[notin]

Want proof that MLB just keeps on keepin' with its blinders on and expects all of us sheep to just follow along?

 

The Yankees bring in broken down old man Beltran in 2019 and Alex calls it the most significant mid-season acquisition of the year. Based on what Alex? What were you trying to tell us? What was the point? Were you trying to rationalize this nonsense so you and Beltran and those like you could integrate this BS as an integral part of baseball. Are you that f***ed in the head Alex?

 

The Mets utterly oblivious, hire Beltran to manage the Mets for the 2020 season.

 

I’m all for trashing the Yankees. But again, isn’t there the possibility that Cora called him that because he likes and respects Beltrán? Or do you think all dirty players like to drop public hidden clues of the guilt?

 

Now I can acknowledge EVERYTHING you have said on this subject might be right. Some of it probably is. But can you acknowledge the opposite possibility - that you are 100% incorrect?

[moonslav59]

All this crap is really bringing out some absurdities.

[mvp 78]

They always seem to have a parting press conference, which I never understand. When you let the manager or GM go, why then let the media dig into a fresh wound? You shouldn’t have press conferences about negative news unless clarification is needed. They didn’t clarify their message at all, so why do it? They’ll need a press conference after the Boston report and punishment comes out, but the manager firing was more common sense than anything else

 

Sox brass loves wallowing in negative news.

[jung]

I’m all for trashing the Yankees. But again, isn’t there the possibility that Cora called him that because he likes and respects Beltrán? Or do you think all dirty players like to drop public hidden clues of the guilt?

 

Now I can acknowledge EVERYTHING you have said on this subject might be right. Some of it probably is. But can you acknowledge the opposite possibility - that you are 100% incorrect?

 

Well there is part of your premise that makes no sense at all. Alex knew that Beltran was his Astros cohort in that cheating scam. That is what Alex knew about Beltran. So how does it makes sense that Alex decides to use the platform of the media to call Beltran the most significant mid-season acquisition of the year based on anything other than Alex knowing Beltran was his cheating cohort in Houston and could bring to the Yankees what he was in Houston? Beltran was not even getting AB's by then.

 

This just can't go on and unless MLB smartens up, it will go on. Get the video crap out of the dugout and get replay completely out of the hands of the teams and absolutely positively get rid of visual signs between the battery mates. I don't believe mics and earpieces will work. Go to some coded, non-audible, non-visual system. Put a cattle prod up the pitchers ass for all I care. But get audible and visual signaling between battery mates entirely out of the game and do it yesterday. They can talk to each other even yell at each other but not communicate the pitch signs in any way that is either audible or visual.

 

The things that are irresistible and that are mutations are the attacks on the dynamics of an enterprise that lie right at the core of that enterprise. You can build great teams in baseball all you want to, build great farm systems all you want to, attempt to buy championships in season all you want to, have the most rabid fans you can conceive of and it all simply becomes background noise if you can find a way to change the dynamics of the pitcher/hitter matchup in baseball. Even stat masters are mere appendages comparatively. None of that other stuff that you can spend mountains of cash to accomplish will make a hill of beans of difference if you can completely change the dynamics of the pitcher/hitter matchup in baseball. Its the nuclear advantage in baseball and an utter and complete mutation of the game.

Edited January 17, 2020 by jung

[moonslav59]

Sox brass loves wallowing in negative news.

 

Some believe any news is better than no news. One is our president.

[jacksonianmarch]

What we “know” to this point is that an unnamed insider dropped info to the MLB that the Sox were using the replay booth to steal pitches in real time. Their system was far less obvious than the Astros trash can crap. They found a way to convey this to the runner on second who conveyed it to the hitter. Not sure if they conveyed the sequence to the runner (hey, the second sign is the one they’re going to) or if they deciphered it and used hand signals to the runner on second to then convey to the batter.

 

As a runner on second, you have to focus on the pitcher not picking you off and getting secondary leads, so deciphering pitch sequence isn’t easy to do on your own.

 

Runners on second have been conveying location and pitch type since the game started. That is why catchers use a sequence and change it up inning by inning. A single runner on second isn’t going to decipher that as they don’t have enough time at second to figure it out. But having someone in the replay room dedicated to deciphering sequence can do it in 2 pitches. That’s the issue. And unless the pitcher and catcher burn a mound visit, they aren’t going to change the sequence, so you’ve got it for the inning.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sox brass loves wallowing in negative news.

 

I get that the Sox want to control the narrative, but it’s easily controlled by making a press release as they did then doing a press conference after the punishment is meted out. That leaves you less open to cracking and saying something stupid. It controls the narrative very well.

[notin]

Well there is part of your premise that makes no sense at all. Alex knew that Beltran was his Astros cohort in that cheating scam. That is what Alex knew about Beltran. So how does it makes sense that Alex decides to use the platform of the media to call Beltran the most significant mid-season acquisition of the year based on anything other than Alex knowing Beltran was his cheating cohort in Houston and could bring to the Yankees what he was in Houston? Beltran was not even getting AB's by then.

 

You’re paraphrasing in a way to make it more suspicious. Cora never said those s bolder words. Now he did say “I was joking when I said Carlos Beltrán was their biggest free agent acquisition” and then went on about details. Sure, he absolutely could have been alluding to cheating. Or he might have meant something else. They did do things besides cheat together, and Beltrán seems to draw praise from everyone everywhere.

 

My mind is open on all this and while I admit I have some strong suspicions, there is a chance I’m wrong. And that doesn’t mean anything is being covered up.

 

Of course, it doesn’t eliminate the possibility either;)

[Slasher9]

when is cashman and boone stepping down? there is just as much evidence the yankees cheated as there is that boston cheated. maybe more. manfred and the NY boys protecting their golden franchise? that is the only reason.

 

jacksonianmarch - were you "ripped apeshit" when giambi's 2 wallscraper HR's in game 7 of the 2003 ALCS helped push a Boston series clinching win into extra innings? if not - shut the f*** up about altuve crushing that dinger in 17...

[Bellhorn04]

I get that the Sox want to control the narrative, but it’s easily controlled by making a press release as they did then doing a press conference after the punishment is meted out. That leaves you less open to cracking and saying something stupid. It controls the narrative very well.

 

You can't control the narrative with the Boston or New York media, I don't think. They'll make stuff up if they have to.

 

Not even Belichick can do it completely. 'Coach's decision' didn't exactly shut people up about why Butler didn't play in the Super Bowl.

[jacksonianmarch]

when is cashman and boone stepping down? there is just as much evidence the yankees cheated as there is that boston cheated. maybe more. manfred and the NY boys protecting their golden franchise? that is the only reason.

 

jacksonianmarch - were you "ripped apeshit" when giambi's 2 wallscraper HR's in game 7 of the 2003 ALCS helped push a Boston series clinching win into extra innings? if not - shut the f*** up about altuve crushing that dinger in 17...

 

Lol, you’re so predictable. Cashman and Boone aren’t stepping down because the Sox and Yankees were both warned and fined in 2017 for using media in the dugout. After that, the Yanks have not violated the rule of cheating and using the replay system IN GAME. The Sox, based on insider reports, have violated that rule and cheated. So the Sox will pay the price and their rebuild will be hindered while the Yanks main competitor, Houston, in the AL just got smacked. Works out swimmingly for me. But keep toting the narrative that everyone is cheating or that the pinstripes are just as wrong if it makes you feel better. Maybe that’ll diminish the sting of not being relevant for the next three seasons

[notin]

when is cashman and boone stepping down? there is just as much evidence the yankees cheated as there is that boston cheated..

 

 

That’s actually true.

 

So far all the evidence we know of rests on the hiring of former Astros.

 

But jacko’s already stripped the Sox draft picks while exonerating the Yankees...

[Bellhorn04]

You’re paraphrasing in a way to make it more suspicious. Cora never said those s bolder words. Now he did say “I was joking when I said Carlos Beltrán was their biggest free agent acquisition” and then went on about details. Sure, he absolutely could have been alluding to cheating. Or he might have meant something else. They did do things besides cheat together, and Beltrán seems to draw praise from everyone everywhere.

 

My mind is open on all this and while I admit I have some strong suspicions, there is a chance I’m wrong. And that doesn’t mean anything is being covered up.

 

Of course, it doesn’t eliminate the possibility either;)

 

Another thing is that there are very sophisticated legal ways of decoding signs and identifying pitch tipping now. I think everyone figured that's what Cora was saying about Beltran.

 

In retrospect it is pretty wild that Cora would say so much about that stuff, knowing what he knew about what they did together with the Astros.

[jacksonianmarch]

You can't control the narrative with the Boston or New York media, I don't think. They'll make stuff up if they have to.

 

Not even Belichick can do it completely. 'Coach's decision' didn't exactly shut people up about why Butler didn't play in the Super Bowl.

 

If the Pats won that super bowl, then nobody would have cared. Winning shuts up critics. That’s why BB can do what he wants. If he didn’t win as much as he has, his s*** wouldn’t fly

[Bellhorn04]

That’s actually true.

 

So far all the evidence we know of rests on the hiring of former Astros.

 

But jacko’s already stripped the Sox draft picks while exonerating the Yankees...

 

Well, the facts at present are that we're being investigated and the Yanks aren't.

[Elktonnick]

Sox brass loves wallowing in negative news.

 

I do not think they love wallowing in negative news as much as they are really terrible at crisis management public relations . In their defense however their news conference was a major improvement from the way they handled Francona's firing.

[Slasher9]

A hot streak? That looked like a JBJ hot streak? I have seen every one of JBJ's hot streaks. He works up to them. Some of his chronic swing maladies correct themselves, a few more correct themselves and eventually he is on fire. Then all of those swing maladies creep back one at a time and by the end of a 162 game season, his numbers reflect what he in fact is, a hitter of modest means AT BEST.

 

That is not what happened either leading up to or in the 2018 ALCS. He just went off and he was ahead of FB's he had no business being ahead of. He was ahead on FB's that normally beat him like a drum because he can't get around on them. JBJ isn't good enough to get around on FB's like that, not even in the middle of a classic JBJ hot streak he can't.

 

so jung. i get the passion but you are a bit off the rails here. JBj's 2018 ALCS was not even a JBj hot streak. he had a couple of "big hits". but this is not a "hot streak":

3 for 12

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, the facts at present are that we're being investigated and the Yanks aren't.

 

There’s all the evidence I need. If that changes, my thought on this will change

[Slasher9]

Lol, you’re so predictable. Cashman and Boone aren’t stepping down because the Sox and Yankees were both warned and fined in 2017 for using media in the dugout. After that, the Yanks have not violated the rule of cheating and using the replay system IN GAME. The Sox, based on insider reports, have violated that rule and cheated. So the Sox will pay the price and their rebuild will be hindered while the Yanks main competitor, Houston, in the AL just got smacked. Works out swimmingly for me. But keep toting the narrative that everyone is cheating or that the pinstripes are just as wrong if it makes you feel better. Maybe that’ll diminish the sting of not being relevant for the next three seasons

 

London Calling

[Bellhorn04]

I do not think they love wallowing in negative news as much as they are really terrible at crisis management public relations . In their defense however their news conference was a major improvement from the way they handled Francona's firing.

 

But what can they say at these things that will satisfy people?

 

For example, maybe the real reason they fired DD was that he had become an insufferable *******. Is that what they should have told the press - the truth?

[jacksonianmarch]

The Sox were 7-3 vs the Yanks at Fenway in 2018, but the last 3 games were after the Sox clinched. They were 6-1 in the first two series scoring 55 runs in those 7 games. Their home field advantage was unprecedented in 2018, and now we know why. But the report was that the method the Sox used couldn’t be used in the playoffs due to a monitor in the replay room. They won the WS after their 108 win regular season on their own merit, reportedly. Which, for the Sox, has to be the biggest painful experience.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox were 7-3 vs the Yanks at Fenway in 2018, but the last 3 games were after the Sox clinched. They were 6-1 in the first two series scoring 55 runs in those 7 games. Their home field advantage was unprecedented in 2018, and now we know why. But the report was that the method the Sox used couldn’t be used in the playoffs due to a monitor in the replay room. They won the WS after their 108 win regular season on their own merit, reportedly. Which, for the Sox, has to be the biggest painful experience.

 

There's two ways to look at that. I think it would be even worse if it was shown they used video in the playoffs.

[jung]

so jung. i get the passion but you are a bit off the rails here. JBj's 2018 ALCS was not even a JBj hot streak. he had a couple of "big hits". but this is not a "hot streak":

3 for 12

 

I agree with you. It was not a JBJ hot streak. I had said as much earlier. That is my point. JBJ had no business getting around on those FB's.

 

When JBJ's multiple swing maladies one by one "cure" leaving him with the classic JBJ hot streak, he hits everything for some period of time. Breaking balls go to the opposite field, FB's are pulled to RF. He hits everything. Also, IMO, JBJ has nothing to do with his hot streaks and nothing to do with his cold streaks. He is simply in a constant state of flux from all of his swing maladies on full display to some of his swing maladies on display to none of them on display and he seems to have little control over maintaining any of that for any significant period. That by the way is the classic description of a hitter of his calibre unlike Ted Williams, the greatest hitter of all time and David Ortiz, possibly the greatest middle of the order bat of all time.

 

JBJ got around on FB's in the WS he had no business getting around on. Normally, IMO, throw JBJ 100 ML FB's of that quality in those locations without benefit of knowing he is getting a FB and if lucky he fouls off 30 of them, misses another 50 outright and maybe hits 20 of them somewhere. If you told me he closed his eyes I would believe that as much as anything else.

 

The only way for a JBJ to hit those WS pitches like that is to sell out on pitch type completely, something no hitter does, not completely unless he is supremely confident of what is coming.

Edited January 17, 2020 by jung

[jacksonianmarch]

There's two ways to look at that. I think it would be even worse if it was shown they used video in the playoffs.

 

IMO, what it shows is the Sox didn’t need to do it, so their penalties and * on their season was unnecessary. Maybe having the advantage in the regular season created a confidence they wouldn’t have had coming into the postseason? Who knows. But what it says to me is the Sox didn’t need to cheat. They were good enough to take the two games played in YS and the 3 games played in Houston before taking 2 games in LA. It’s not like they could have cheated in those games. 8 of their 11 wins were on the road. They went 8-1 on the road in the postseason that year

[Bellhorn04]

JBJ got around on FB's in the WS he had no business getting around on. Normally, IMO, throw JBJ 100 ML FB's of that quality in those locations without benefit of knowing he is getting a FB and if lucky he fouls off 30 of them, misses another 50 outright and maybe hits 20 of them somewhere. If you told me he closed his eyes I would believe that as much as anything else.

 

The only way for a JBJ to hit those WS pitches like that is to sell out on pitch type completely, something no hitter does, not completely unless he is supremely confident of what is coming.

 

Those pitches you're talking about were in the ALCS in Houston.

[jung]

Actually talking about selling out on pitches made me think about the Astros hitters. That does in fact look like a bunch of hitters that are supremely confident in the knowledge of the pitch that is coming. Springer, often he can hardly stay in the stadium he sells out so hard on FB. Correa very similar in that regard. Altuve.....PLLLLLLLEASE!!!!!!

 

Look at the way that lineup swings or at least has swung up and down the lineup. Nobody sells out more on pitches than the Astros have.

[jung]

Those pitches you're talking about were in the ALCS in Houston.

 

 

Correct, I should not have discussed Pearce and JBJ in the same thread. It is obviously the ALCS and JBJ and I said as much earlier. Keyed WS when I meant to key ALCS in the post you quote boxed. My bad. Thanks for catching that.

Edited January 17, 2020 by jung

[jacksonianmarch]

Actually talking about selling out on pitches made me think about the Astros hitters. That does in fact look like a bunch of hitters that are supremely confident in the knowledge of the pitch that is coming. Springer, often he can hardly stay in the stadium he sells out so hard on FB. Correa very similar in that regard. Altuve.....PLLLLLLLEASE!!!!!!

 

Look at the way that lineup swings or at least has swung up and down the lineup. Nobody sells out more on pitches than the Astros have.

 

Springer hammering Ottavino’s slider and Altuve walking off a Chapman slider looks really fishy right now