Mookie Betts: Trade or Extend

[Kimmi]

Keeping JD will basically mean we have just about no budget space at all- even without JBJ.

 

I'm not convinced that Henry is going to reset this year.

[Kimmi]

I know everyone loves to dump on Lucchino but one must give the devil his due. Lucchino work in getting Camden Yards built arguably saved baseball in Baltimore and caused a revitalization of the game at the major and minor league levels. He did much the same in San Diego. Lucchino is also largely credited with saving Fenway Park from the wrecking ball. Finally a reminder to all those who vilify Lucchino for his treatment of Theo remember it was Lucchino who brought Epstein to Boston in the first place.

 

Lucchino may have been a tough not very likeable SOB but that what it takes to deal with all those Maryland Californian and Massachusetts poiliticos to get projects done. Epstein and Cherrington for all their baseball talents simply aren't in Lucchinos league when it comes to that side of baseball.

 

Lucchino is a talented businessman, I have no doubt.

 

The problem is that his priorities in building a baseball team tend to lean toward the business side of things, not the baseball side of things. Therefore, his his influence in baseball ops decisions gets dumped on, and rightly so, IMO.

[Kimmi]

If we keep everyone else (dumping Porcello, Pearce, Moreland, Nunez, Holt), do we have enough to make the playoffs AND contend for World Championship in 2020?

 

If the answer is HELL NO, then we should clean house and reload in 2021. Trade away Betts, JBJ and JD? Re-sign Betts in 2021?

 

The answer to your question is a resounding YES. I don't see any house cleaning taking place this offseason.

[Kimmi]

Really! Do you honestly think that Red Sox fans in Boston would tolerate house cleaning? I don't!!

 

No they won't, and Henry won't go in that direction.

[Elktonnick]

Lucchino is a talented businessman, I have no doubt.

 

The problem is that his priorities in building a baseball team tend to lean toward the business side of things, not the baseball side of things. Therefore, his his influence in baseball ops decisions gets dumped on, and rightly so, IMO.

 

Lucchino got dumped because Henry always dumps those who are no longer of use to him. Likeable or not Lucchino deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. His contributions to the game by transforming baseball ball parks nationwide, probably saving baseball in Baltimore and saving Fenway Park in the process, dwarf anything his detractors have accomplished.

[Bellhorn04]

Lucchino is a talented businessman, I have no doubt.

 

The problem is that his priorities in building a baseball team tend to lean toward the business side of things, not the baseball side of things. Therefore, his his influence in baseball ops decisions gets dumped on, and rightly so, IMO.

 

Lucchino was not all bad as far as some of the baseball moves.

 

He did hire Theo, after all.

 

And he was instrumental in the 2012 trade with the Dodgers, per this article.

 

https://www.espn.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8323305/boston-red-sox-los-angeles-dodgers-blockbuster-trade-anatomy

[moonslav59]

The answer to your question is a resounding YES. I don't see any house cleaning taking place this offseason.

 

I don't either, but did Sox fans "tolerate" trading Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Doubront and Andrew Miller, and we won a ring shortly after those trades.

 

Granted, these guys were not traded for prospects, except for the Miller-ERod and Peavy-Hembree/Escobar deals, and those were for near ML ready prospects.

 

Sox fans tolerated trading AGon, Beckett & Crawford. (I not only tolerated it, I called it one of the greatest trades in Sox history.)

 

I don't see us dealing JD, Betts & JBJ for top single A prospects or the like, but I can see a chance of a major overhaul on the scale of the two instances I mentioned.

[moonslav59]

Lucchino was not all bad as far as some of the baseball moves.

 

He did hire Theo, after all.

 

And he was instrumental in the 2012 trade with the Dodgers, per this article.

 

https://www.espn.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8323305/boston-red-sox-los-angeles-dodgers-blockbuster-trade-anatomy

 

Wasn't he a major factor in the Schilling deal as well? The Beckett & Lowell trade?

[notin]

You seem pretty sure on Dalbec being traded, and I can see the point about his value at 3B is worth more than to us at 1B.

 

I've never been high on Travis, and he didn't help himself out this year.

 

Your scenario makes sense, especially if we want to give the perception we will try to win a ring sans JD & JBJ.

 

I was certain Dalbec would be traded when Dombrowski was GM. Now I’m not so sure. But I don’t think he will be part of a 1b platoon with Travis or Chavis, especially since all of them bat right- handed.

 

Now would the Sox try the defensively talented Dalbec at 2b this year?

[moonslav59]

I was certain Dalbec would be traded when Dombrowski was GM. Now I’m not so sure. But I don’t think he will be part of a 1b platoon with Travis or Chavis, especially since all of them bat right- handed.

 

Now would the Sox try the defensively talented Dalbec at 2b this year?

 

I didn't think of that. I actually thought Chavis looked okay at 2B, but it could have been a mirage.

 

I'm not thinking Dalbec-Travis or Dalbec-Chavis platoon at 1B.I'm thinking Ockimey or a cheap FA. Chavis might share time at the 1B platoon vs LHPs, and maybe play some 2B vs RHPs.

 

I'm not super high on Chavis, and he did better than I expected. In my mind, trading Chavis makes more sense than trading guys coming off down years (Beni or Barnes), and since Dalbec is a better defender, I'd keep him over Chavis or Travis.

[jacksonianmarch]

Chavis' long term viability as a hitter is in question since he has such an enormous hole in his swing. I guess you could try and sell high on him with a team desperate for power. But I think if the sox keep him, they might be better served reworking his swing in AAA and bringing him back up able to handle the high fastball

[moonslav59]

Chavis' long term viability as a hitter is in question since he has such an enormous hole in his swing. I guess you could try and sell high on him with a team desperate for power. But I think if the sox keep him, they might be better served reworking his swing in AAA and bringing him back up able to handle the high fastball

 

His bat will likely be good enough for 2B, but I doubt his glove can keep him a plus there. I doubt his bat will ever be good enough for 1B.

 

I might try and sell high on Walden, too. Maybe Walden & Chavis for a better pen arm.

[jacksonianmarch]

His bat will likely be good enough for 2B, but I doubt his glove can keep him a plus there. I doubt his bat will ever be good enough for 1B.

 

I might try and sell high on Walden, too. Maybe Walden & Chavis for a better pen arm.

 

Maybe. I think I would hang onto Chavis, though, if I were the sox GM. He can hit a breaking ball better than most players in the game. That is a skill that is hard as hell to teach and pretty difficult to track as a hitter. He has the hardest part figured out. He just needs to be able to continue to do that while not selling bat speed for the higher pitches. It's an approach issue. I think he can do it, it is just gonna take a lot of work. Might even take the entirety of 2020 to figure it out. Once he does, though, he will have a bright future. And for the sox, young guys with bright futures are worth their weight in gold

[moonslav59]

Maybe. I think I would hang onto Chavis, though, if I were the sox GM. He can hit a breaking ball better than most players in the game. That is a skill that is hard as hell to teach and pretty difficult to track as a hitter. He has the hardest part figured out. He just needs to be able to continue to do that while not selling bat speed for the higher pitches. It's an approach issue. I think he can do it, it is just gonna take a lot of work. Might even take the entirety of 2020 to figure it out. Once he does, though, he will have a bright future. And for the sox, young guys with bright futures are worth their weight in gold

 

I'm not for handing him away. I think other GMs see that value and will give something for it.

 

I like Dalbec better- both on O and D.

 

I suppose, if a GM would give more for Dalbec, I'd look at that instead.

[jad]

And if the RS fans won't 'tolerate' something, exactly what is it they do? Compose brilliantly vitriolic posts on sports boards? Or show up to the games with hateful signs?

[Bellhorn04]

And if the RS fans won't 'tolerate' something, exactly what is it they do? Compose brilliantly vitriolic posts on sports boards?

 

You got it. They raise bloody hell here on Talksox!

[Slasher9]

I'm not convinced that Henry is going to reset this year.

 

i would be SHOCKED if he doesnt reset. shocked.

[Bellhorn04]

Wasn't he a major factor in the Schilling deal as well? The Beckett & Lowell trade?

 

I thought he had a lot to do with the Beckett & Lowell trade. It only makes sense that he would swoop in when Theo was on hiatus.

[vegasbob]

I don't either, but did Sox fans "tolerate" trading Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Doubront and Andrew Miller, and we won a ring shortly after those trades.

 

Granted, these guys were not traded for prospects, except for the Miller-ERod and Peavy-Hembree/Escobar deals, and those were for near ML ready prospects.

 

Sox fans tolerated trading AGon, Beckett & Crawford. (I not only tolerated it, I called it one of the greatest trades in Sox history.)

 

I don't see us dealing JD, Betts & JBJ for top single A prospects or the like, but I can see a chance of a major overhaul on the scale of the two instances I mentioned.

 

Everyone likes to forget that it was Nicky Punto who solidified the Dodger trade. Nicky rode the same plane as the other 3 westbound throw-ins

[Bellhorn04]

Everyone likes to forget that it was Nicky Punto who solidified the Dodger trade. Nicky rode the same plane as the other 3 westbound throw-ins

 

Yeah, I thought it was an excellent joke when it was referred to as the 'Punto trade'.

[moonslav59]

i would be SHOCKED if he doesnt reset. shocked.

 

Me, too, but if we are in the race in July, I could see us acquiring someone who puts us over, and we reset in 2021 (Bye-bye Betts).

[notin]

I didn't think of that. I actually thought Chavis looked okay at 2B, but it could have been a mirage.

 

I'm not thinking Dalbec-Travis or Dalbec-Chavis platoon at 1B.I'm thinking Ockimey or a cheap FA. Chavis might share time at the 1B platoon vs LHPs, and maybe play some 2B vs RHPs.

 

I'm not super high on Chavis, and he did better than I expected. In my mind, trading Chavis makes more sense than trading guys coming off down years (Beni or Barnes), and since Dalbec is a better defender, I'd keep him over Chavis or Travis.

 

I'm not wild about Chjavis, but if he can handle 2B, all the better.

 

The problem with Ockimey in a platoon is he is the LHH, aka the strong side of the platoon. If you have a question mark in a platoon, better off having it be the RHH, who plays less often and is easier to find a replacement for.

 

If the Sox do go dirt cheap with a platoon at 1b, I could see bringing in half human/half mountain Matt Adams (career .816 OPS vs RHP) and then platooning him with Sam Travisty. If Travis doesn't work out, there are fallback options like Dalbec, who, if he isn't traded, can stay on the farm for a bit. I don't think he even has to be added to the 40-man roster this year, does he? They also have Tommy Joseph as a RHH 1B in Pawtucket who might be brought back, who has MLB experience, although also has a strong propensity for getting concussed.

 

Or maybe just a Adams/Chavis platoon if they think Chavis simply is not an everyday player. The Sox have a few internal options for 2b, including Marco Hernandez, Tzu-Wei Lin, Chad De La Guerra (a very quiet .901 OPS in Pawtucket this past year in 253 PA), and CJ Chatham. Or they could try a one year pillow contract to a vet trying to re-establish some value, a phrase this year that obviously refers to Scooter Gennett. (Can they still use the player option to lower the AAV?)

 

Adams does have a $4mill mututal option with Washington, so he might not be as available as i thought, but he is hardly imporssible to trade for or find an equivalent MLB player...

 

Outfield is the bigger concern. I think they are not so likely to have Bradley and it sounds like they are planning to move Betts. That leaves two gaping holes. And JD Martinez ha convinced a few people he is moving on as well, although sometimes these writers look a little too deep into every comment to stimulate some interest in their readers / followers. And nothing stimulates interest like potential bad news.

 

If the Sox have $56mill to spend and don't bring back Betts, the remaining arbitration players will probably cost about $20mill total, leaving plenty of cash to sign a couple role players like Adams and Gennett and a bullpen arm or two....

[moonslav59]

Yeah, I thought it was an excellent joke when it was referred to as the 'Punto trade'.

 

Didn't Punto do better than the other three after the trade?

 

Sarcasm alert

[Swiharts Ghost]

Let Mookie and his agent and MLB twist until we get an Anthony Rizzo and a top 10 pitching prospect...I don’t give a crap if the cubs involve the blue jays the Yankees ...Get Rizzo back to Boston and an Ace a year at most away .

[harmony]

The Boston Globe's Alex Speier weighs in on the possibility of a Mookie Betts trade:

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2019/10/07/someone-gotta-assessing-trade-value-mookie-betts/JoTYwAy6YSjjOU6mBWUNFN/story.html?et_rid=1739401789&s_campaign=108stitches:newsletter

[moonslav59]

Let Mookie and his agent and MLB twist until we get an Anthony Rizzo and a top 10 pitching prospect...I don’t give a crap if the cubs involve the blue jays the Yankees ...Get Rizzo back to Boston and an Ace a year at most away .

 

I just don't see that trade as helping either team.

 

Plus, there is no such thing as "an ace at most a year away."

[Kimmi]

Lucchino got dumped because Henry always dumps those who are no longer of use to him. Likeable or not Lucchino deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. His contributions to the game by transforming baseball ball parks nationwide, probably saving baseball in Baltimore and saving Fenway Park in the process, dwarf anything his detractors have accomplished.

 

Lucchino can be in the Hall of Fame for the business aspect of baseball. I'll give him the credit he deserves in that aspect of the game.

[Kimmi]

Lucchino was not all bad as far as some of the baseball moves.

 

He did hire Theo, after all.

 

And he was instrumental in the 2012 trade with the Dodgers, per this article.

 

https://www.espn.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8323305/boston-red-sox-los-angeles-dodgers-blockbuster-trade-anatomy

 

I won't say that he was all bad. His priority was putting fans in the seats. That is a different priority than the GM's priority of putting wins on the field. Sometimes a move can do both.

 

When there is a difference of opinion, however, the GM should win out.

[Kimmi]

I don't either, but did Sox fans "tolerate" trading Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Doubront and Andrew Miller, and we won a ring shortly after those trades.

 

Granted, these guys were not traded for prospects, except for the Miller-ERod and Peavy-Hembree/Escobar deals, and those were for near ML ready prospects.

 

Sox fans tolerated trading AGon, Beckett & Crawford. (I not only tolerated it, I called it one of the greatest trades in Sox history.)

 

I don't see us dealing JD, Betts & JBJ for top single A prospects or the like, but I can see a chance of a major overhaul on the scale of the two instances I mentioned.

 

Fair post.

 

It depends on what other moves go along with any "house cleaning" type moves. With the moves you mentioned above, the team remained competitive, at least on paper. I don't think we'll tolerate going into the season knowing that we won't have chance of making the playoffs.

[Kimmi]

And if the RS fans won't 'tolerate' something, exactly what is it they do? Compose brilliantly vitriolic posts on sports boards? Or show up to the games with hateful signs?

 

And pay higher ticket prices to show up to the games.