Sale, Price, Porcello---pART tWO

[Bellhorn04]

I suggested shutting him and Sale down two days ago.

 

I'm not in favor of shutting Sale down at this point. I'd rather see him work on his game. Assuming he's fully healthy.

[cp176]

I'm not in favor of shutting Sale down at this point. I'd rather see him work on his game. Assuming he's fully healthy.

 

Not sure really why anyone could think that shutting chris sale down would be a good idea. He has not pitched as he has in the past for sure but if he is healthy he still gets it done. He'll figure things out but if he doesn't he still is an asset for any team.

[Bellhorn04]

I'd love to see Sale finish strong, and maybe quiet some people down about how stupid the extension was, that's for sure.

[TylerD]

I'd love to see Sale finish strong, and maybe quiet some people down about how stupid the extension was, that's for sure.

 

tonight was definitely a statement game. Man oh man was Sale incredible.

[moonslav59]

Looked like...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale

 

agan!

[notin]

Looked like...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale

 

agan!

 

So we all good? Postseason back on again?

[moonslav59]

So we all good? Postseason back on again?

 

Nope. Not a chance.

 

I will admit I was wrong about suggesting we shut Sale down for the year.

[cp176]

Nope. Not a chance.

 

I will admit I was wrong about suggesting we shut Sale down for the year.

 

I think that it is safe to say that we all have been and probably still are concerned about Sale's performance this year. He did look great last night though. Just one game but reason to really be hopeful. Obviously I am a huge Sale guy. There is nothing that I dislike about the guy. He works hard, he does not quit, and he owns it. I heard one criticism on here that disgusts me - the idea that his paycheck was somehow more important to him than the team's overall performance. (NOT BY YOU). IMO that is absolutely ridiculous. We are fortunate to have the future hall of fame on our side. Acquiring him was the price of doing business. No one should be at all concerned about the cost it took. it was the right thing to do at the right time to do it. No one repeat no one should be bitching about the affect it had on the farm system.

[S5Dewey]

I think that it is safe to say that we all have been and probably still are concerned about Sale's performance this year. He did look great last night though. Just one game but reason to really be hopeful. Obviously I am a huge Sale guy. There is nothing that I dislike about the guy. He works hard, he does not quit, and he owns it. I heard one criticism on here that disgusts me - the idea that his paycheck was somehow more important to him than the team's overall performance. (NOT BY YOU). IMO that is absolutely ridiculous. We are fortunate to have the future hall of fame on our side. Acquiring him was the price of doing business. No one should be at all concerned about the cost it took. it was the right thing to do at the right time to do it. No one repeat no one should be bitching about the affect it had on the farm system.

 

Let's see...we could have the best AAA team and the best farm teams in baseball in 2019 & 2019...or we could have a flag flying and a 3rd place finish.

I'll take Door #2, Monty.

[cp176]

Let's see...we could have the best AAA team and the best farm teams in baseball in 2019 & 2019...or we could have a flag flying and a 3rd place finish.

I'll take Door #2, Monty.

 

Ain't that a fact! And the better news is that Sale finally got paid for what he has been and likely will continue to do for some time. We'll get to see now whether or not his performance last night has any carry over effect on the rest of the team. I do think just like you do that if these guys think that they have a legit stopper leading the way, they all might play better. Confidence makes a difference.

[notin]

I think that it is safe to say that we all have been and probably still are concerned about Sale's performance this year. He did look great last night though. Just one game but reason to really be hopeful. Obviously I am a huge Sale guy. There is nothing that I dislike about the guy. He works hard, he does not quit, and he owns it. I heard one criticism on here that disgusts me - the idea that his paycheck was somehow more important to him than the team's overall performance. (NOT BY YOU). IMO that is absolutely ridiculous. We are fortunate to have the future hall of fame on our side. Acquiring him was the price of doing business. No one should be at all concerned about the cost it took. it was the right thing to do at the right time to do it. No one repeat no one should be bitching about the affect it had on the farm system.

 

While it’s not uncommon for a player’s performance to drop after signing a big deal, Sale’s issues did start before his big contract. I don’t think he’s in the “I don’t care!! I’m getting paid” camp. But his continued struggles just make Dombrowski look worse in my eyes...

[cp176]

While it’s not uncommon for a player’s performance to drop after signing a big deal, Sale’s issues did start before his big contract. I don’t think he’s in the “I don’t care!! I’m getting paid” camp. But his continued struggles just make Dombrowski look worse in my eyes...

 

...and that's ok. Your choice of wording - "make Dombrowski look worse in my eyes" - implies to me that you didn't nor do you like him much. That is ok as well. I don't think that any normal person would be too excited about anyone signing a big contract and then not performing to the expected standards that they have set. I'm a Dombrowski supporter and a huge Sale fan obviously and I'm ok with that.

[kenmeister]

Looked like...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale

 

agan!

 

It sure did!

 

Wow. I was hoping he'd get the shutout, but then again, seeing a dominant Workman close out the game was also a sight for sore eyes. Makes me think that if we somehow get to the Wild Card game, if we can throw Sale & Workman at the opposing team, we have a strong chance.

 

Now I'd like to see Betts start hitting...

[notin]

...and that's ok. Your choice of wording - "make Dombrowski look worse in my eyes" - implies to me that you didn't nor do you like him much. That is ok as well.

 

You must be new here;)

 

I’ve been ripping Dombrowski’s lack of activity this year since December. I’m not even sure he still works for the Red Sox...

[notin]

It sure did!

 

Wow. I was hoping he'd get the shutout, but then again, seeing a dominant Workman close out the game was also a sight for sore eyes. Makes me think that if we somehow get to the Wild Card game, if we can throw Sale & Workman at the opposing team, we have a strong chance.

 

Now I'd like to see Betts start hitting...

 

Betts has an .869 OPS. His career OPSi is .885. If you take out his first two seasons when he was young, developing, and learning the league, his OPS since his age 23 season is .903.

 

He’s basically hitting like he always has with the exception of his outstanding 2018...

[Kimmi]

Ahem. Consider your source. The simple reality is that Sale, Price, ERod, Eovaldi, and even sometimes Porcello have thrown a lot of fastballs throughout their careers. I think that fixation on the fastball is exacerbated by the seams being smoother--which makes breaking balls less effective--and by the fact that three of them are lefties who apparently never mastered the curve ball which breaks toward righty batters. Also, there can be no question that Sale's fastball has lost something. I think he has a great slider, but it breaks in on righties.

 

I do agree the pitching staff has not adjusted to the semi-seamless baseball this year. Both the rotation and the bullpen.

 

It could be that the pitching staff has not adjusted to the new baseballs.

 

But it is also not a good idea to become too predictable. If opposing teams know what your strategy is, they will likely have more success against you.

[jung]

Sale had a great start last night against a team that he regularly dominates (6-0 going in to last night now 7-0). He did sort of pitch backwards last night starting with the Slider. and instead of spotting that Slider of his to RH hitters on their back foot, he was sneaking it back over the outside corner. Exhibited plenty of command of that pitch before even throwing Four seam FB's. Once he started throwing four seam FB's he started at 91-93 and gradually moved up in velo to hitters and in counts where he thought he needed it.

 

That was an excellent performance.

 

Now, he has been in decline late in seasons for the past couple of years. That created a whole bunch of horse s*** machinations going into this season. We can't wait for game 110 or whatever the f*** last night's game was for Sale to show up. His other highlight start this season was the complete game against the anemic Royals. From June 15th till last night he has gone 6, 5, 6, 5.2, 4.2, 6, 6, 5.1, 3.2 and his ERA for the year to date including last night is 4.41.

 

If Sale is to stay in the 1 hole, he is constantly going to face opponent pitchers that are also the opponents 1-2 hole pitcher. Erod gets lots of run support and lots of wins because he generally faces an opponent 5 hole pitcher. The i hole demands more of a starting pitcher.

 

What I liked about Sale's start last night is that he showed an incredible amount of patience and pitched intelligently albeit against a team he is supremely confident pitching against. THAT is how Chris Sale will have to pitch for the remainder of his career as a starter IMO. Either he does it or he doesn't. Regardless of what all else happens, injury, wear, what have you, if he does not do that, pitch with patience and intelligence every time out, something contrary to his generally nuclear approach to pitching, that 2024 deal becomes an albatross around our necks.

[kenmeister]

Betts has an .869 OPS. His career OPSi is .885. If you take out his first two seasons when he was young, developing, and learning the league, his OPS since his age 23 season is .903.

 

He’s basically hitting like he always has with the exception of his outstanding 2018...

 

Looking at his numbers now. Actually the season to take out is 2018. OPS .812, .820, .897, .803, and currently .870. I suppose this is who he is. I was hoping last year would become a new normal

[Kimmi]

But lots of foul balls are part of the same problem. This pitching staff challenges nobody. Its either nibble nibble nibble (ERod and Price) or get to chase (Sale and Cashewnuts). No telling what Porcello is trying to do at this point....survive would be my bet. Anyway, nibble and chase creates lots of foul balls and lots of just plain balls off the plate that don't even prompt a swing.

 

Manfred both in MLB promoting power pitching and in the Manfred Missile is totally responsible for this mess. Manfred has come at this from both directions and has simply exacerbated the worst aspects of MLB's game. The pitching now sucks with no end in immediate sight. Pitchers are breaking down constantly with teams forced to backfill with garbage. Hitters treat every count like its 2-1 regardless of the actual count and flail away. Nice job Rob...really well done. Lets see how many pink hats you can keep oblivious to your nonsense.

 

Nobody but the totally oblivious believes in these HR totals even now within the actual 2019 season....NOBODY!

 

I get the whole Manfred Missile thing. Wouldn't that likely be a problem that affects pitchers throughout baseball, and not just the Sox pitchers? There is something going on with our staff beyond any adjustments to the baseball.

 

The great JoeyB posted this on another site:

 

But it also feels like there is other stuff going on. Price & Porcello hit almost an identical slump at the same time.

 

Sale 4/23-6/15 2.24 6/21-8/3 7.23

Porcello 4/20-6/17 3.30 6/23-7/31 9.35

Price 4/14-7/14 2.71 7/19-8/4 10.59

 

It's basically two months of pitching like aces, followed by two weeks of pitching like me. One pitcher going off the rails is not unusual. But three guys, all C.Y. award winners, all on overlapping time periods? Something else is wrong. And that's on the coaches, and to a slightly lesser degree, on Cora.

 

The drop off in performance after about 2 months seems to support the idea that other teams have adjusted to our game plan, which means that game plan now needs to be readjusted.

[Kimmi]

If you can't do it, fake it.... That's how I got my job lol.

 

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****.

 

Works well for me.

[Kimmi]

Others are still hoping that somehow the club will catch fire and go on a run big enough to get us into the WC discussion again. Those with a statisical background have to ignore our predicament and hope we do something we have been unable to do til now.

 

What I wonder is why don't we use some of our top pitching prospects scattered in to start games and take the heat off of starters. We have Byran Mata and DHern was some are calling him. I personally don't see a lot to lose by getting a look at these guys in a starting role.

 

While I'm at it, I would like to get a look at Chatham, Suran and Dalbec as well. Will we have to wait til sept for that to happen.

 

IMO, it's too early to do that. While the Sox have an uphill battle, they are not out of it yet.

[Kimmi]

Attendance this year is higher than last year. I don't know about NESN viewership of course.

 

I read recently that NESN viewership is down a fair amount. I don't recall the exact numbers.

[notin]

Looking at his numbers now. Actually the season to take out is 2018. OPS .812, .820, .897, .803, and currently .870. I suppose this is who he is. I was hoping last year would become a new normal

 

Or, if you’re OB and Remy, it means OPS is flawed.

 

(OPS does have a major flaw rooted in basic math, but that doesn’t impact its values. Just in its quantifiability.)

[Kimmi]

I'd love to see Sale finish strong, and maybe quiet some people down about how stupid the extension was, that's for sure.

 

Also, I think Sale needs this for himself. He's a fierce competitor. I don't think it would do him much good to stew on how his season ended if they shut him down right now (last night's game notwithstanding).

[Kimmi]

So we all good? Postseason back on again?

 

We good!

[notin]

It could be that the pitching staff has not adjusted to the new baseballs.

 

Easily understandable...

[jung]

I get the whole Manfred Missile thing. Wouldn't that likely be a problem that affects pitchers throughout baseball, and not just the Sox pitchers? There is something going on with our staff beyond any adjustments to the baseball.

 

The great JoeyB posted this on another site:

 

 

 

The drop off in performance after about 2 months seems to support the idea that other teams have adjusted to our game plan, which means that game plan now needs to be readjusted.

 

I don't know if they can. They don't challenge hitters other than Nate and Nate is actually not ready as yet to challenge hitters successfully.

 

You think this is only effecting our pitchers? MLB pitching generally sucks in this era. It is not a problem isolated to the Boston Red Sox. The NL has more starters that challenge hitters than the AL does. But so what. NL pitchers don't have the DH to worry about. One reason so few MLB pitchers challenge hitters is because the pitchers are just not good enough. We have legions of pitchers now wearing MLB unis that should not be....probably should never have gotten past AA ball. Another reason is that there are no safe havens in a batting order any longer. Any 160 lb soaking wet 2nd baseman can drive the ball over the Fenway bullpens now thanks to the Manfred Missile. So almost nobody challenges hitters either because they can't or won't, more likely both!

 

As for our pitchers specifically, Porcello can no longer throw the high FB which he never had before adopting it and winning a Cy with it. Can't throw it any longer. Last start, abandoned the four seam FB completely to get through it.

 

Sale, will have to throw with patience and intelligence for the remainder of his career in order to succeed IMO. That is something of a departure from his generally nuclear approach to being a starting pitcher.

 

I do think the computer geeks in Sox baseball ops are calling the shots and it is them that have left us with a staff that challenges nobody. It is too pervasive throughout the staff and its not ex-catcher, ex bullpen coach Lavangie doing it though he is likely to take the hit for this mess. Its entirely possible that they named Lavangie pitching coach because the computer geeks in the FO did not want to deal with any contrary views from a pitching coach with actual pitching experience.

 

Also entirely possible that Kimbrel is not here because for better or worse, Kimbrel challenges hitters. We appear not to have much interest in pitchers in key roles that do that. We took on jack of all trades Nate. But Nate's role on this staff is not well defined and is certainly not critical.

 

I will be interested to see what happens to D-Hern. He clearly wants to be a strike thrower and challenge hitters. Will they trade him? Could be an interesting indication one way or the other.

[cp176]

You must be new here;)

 

I’ve been ripping Dombrowski’s lack of activity this year since December. I’m not even sure he still works for the Red Sox...

 

new, naive, whatever - kind of the same thing - that's me I guess. How about this stunner for you - I absolutely think that having a dominant pitcher even if for one day per week will make the rest of this team way better. Confidence and the way you look at things in general makes a huge difference in my little world. I kind of felt the same way about the loss of Kimbrel even though it looked as though he had started to decline. Any good starting pitcher has to feel better if they have that guy on the backend who can pick you and the rest of the team up. having Sale underperform and not having that rare guy in the bullpen that everybody expects to get the job done has hurt this team more than the statistics indicate that it has. Unmeasurable things still make a difference. (in my little world - lol)

[Kimmi]

I don't know if they can. They don't challenge hitters other than Nate and Nate is actually not ready as yet to challenge hitters successfully.

 

You think this is only effecting our pitchers? MLB pitching generally sucks in this era. It is not a problem isolated to the Boston Red Sox. The NL has more starters that challenge hitters than the AL does. But so what. NL pitchers don't have the DH to worry about. One reason so few MLB pitchers challenge hitters is because the pitchers are just not good enough. We have legions of pitchers now wearing MLB unis that should not be....probably should never have gotten past AA ball. Another reason is that there are no safe havens in a batting order any longer. Any 160 lb soaking wet 2nd baseman can drive the ball over the Fenway bullpens now thanks to the Manfred Missile. So almost nobody challenges hitters either because they can't or won't, more likely both!

 

As for our pitchers specifically, Porcello can no longer throw the high FB which he never had before adopting it and winning a Cy with it. Can't throw it any longer. Last start, abandoned the four seam FB completely to get through it.

 

Sale, will have to throw with patience and intelligence for the remainder of his career in order to succeed IMO. That is something of a departure from his generally nuclear approach to being a starting pitcher.

 

I do think the computer geeks in Sox baseball ops are calling the shots and it is them that have left us with a staff that challenges nobody. It is too pervasive throughout the staff and its not ex-catcher, ex bullpen coach Lavangie doing it though he is likely to take the hit for this mess. Its entirely possible that they named Lavangie pitching coach because the computer geeks in the FO did not want to deal with any contrary views from a pitching coach with actual pitching experience.

 

Also entirely possible that Kimbrel is not here because for better or worse, Kimbrel challenges hitters. We appear not to have much interest in pitchers in key roles that do that. We took on jack of all trades Nate. But Nate's role on this staff is not well defined and is certainly not critical.

 

I will be interested to see what happens to D-Hern. He clearly wants to be a strike thrower and challenge hitters. Will they trade him? Could be an interesting indication one way or the other.

 

The missile ball might be affecting other pitchers as well, but has any other team had almost a complete collapse of their pitching staff like the Sox have? The Astros, Rays, and Guardians all seem to be pitching rather well.

 

As far as the team having a philosophy of not challenging hitters, I'm not buying that at all. I don't believe for a minute that that is the reason the Sox let the Kimbrel walk. I don't believe that they would encourage their pitchers to nibble. They've been trying for years to get ERod to be more efficient with his pitches.

[oldtimer]

The missile ball might be affecting other pitchers as well, but has any other team had almost a complete collapse of their pitching staff like the Sox have? The Astros, Rays, and Guardians all seem to be pitching rather well.

 

As far as the team having a philosophy of not challenging hitters, I'm not buying that at all. I don't believe for a minute that that is the reason the Sox let the Kimbrel walk. I don't believe that they would encourage their pitchers to nibble. They've been trying for years to get ERod to be more efficient with his pitches.

 

It has been a mystery as to why the entire pitching staff would look so bad and all at the same time. YES, E-Rod has good stuff but has always nibbled on the corners and often would take a fovorable count and take it to 3 and 2. His pitch count has always gone high and no one seems to be able to cure him of that approach. He has been the exception on this staff.

 

The idea that we are tipping pitches doesn't make a lot of sense, since it is so widespread on our staff. Do we have a pattern of pitching that opposing teams decoded? It seemed to get worse when Tampa Bay came in and the Yankees just murdered our staff. Were teams reading our signs? Was it 4 seam FBs over the plate or lack of movement on them caused by the Manfred MIssle (low seamed ball). Whatever it was or continues to be, the Sox need to find the cause and change the pattern. I haven't really found any convincing arguments for any of the ideas put forward.