2019 Starting Pitching thread

[OH FOY]

If money is good, I'd sign Buchholz, hope he does good and flip him for Prospects. These are the kind of signings, that if done right, could help out to build up some Minor League talent.

Sox need to sign Miller. And I'm OK. He's better then a closer, can get more then 3 Outs.

[oldtimer]

If money is good, I'd sign Buchholz, hope he does good and flip him for Prospects. These are the kind of signings, that if done right, could help out to build up some Minor League talent.

Sox need to sign Miller. And I'm OK. He's better then a closer, can get more then 3 Outs.

 

Miller is a risk from an injury point of view. I think we should look for a different candidate.

[Spudboy]

Say what you want, he's better than any pitcher that will be signed to a minor league deal this year.

 

I am done with him but given this context signing the dolt is a decent idea.

 

Assuming he would make the deal. And if he did sign, he would no doubt have a opt-out for June or something like that.

[moonslav59]

Exactly what type of pitchers do you think we can get on minor league deals?

 

Basically, anyone not named Clay.

[notin]

Basically, anyone not named Clay.

 

So... worse pitchers?

[moonslav59]

So... worse pitchers?

 

Maybe a little worse but more dependable.

[Kimmi]

The same risk there always is with Clay. Clay Buchholz is proof positive that living, breathing humans can actually be illusions.

 

What's the risk though? We're not talking about counting on Clay as our 5th starter. If he's not healthy, nothing lost. If he is healthy and can give us what he gave the DBacks last year, what a steal.

[Kimmi]

I am done with him but given this context signing the dolt is a decent idea.

 

Assuming he would make the deal. And if he did sign, he would no doubt have a opt-out for June or something like that.

 

I am guessing the discussion about adding Clay as minor league depth is moot, as some team will offer him a big league contract. The fact that he is good enough that he probably will get a major league contract makes it kind of odd that people don't think he's good enough to sign as a depth piece.

 

And you're right about having a June opt out, though he could choose not to exercise it.

[Fisk]

I am guessing the discussion about adding Clay as minor league depth is moot, as some team will offer him a big league contract. The fact that he is good enough that he probably will get a major league contract makes it kind of odd that people don't think he's good enough to sign as a depth piece.

 

And you're right about having a June opt out, though he could choose not to exercise it.

 

Heard Oakland is interested in him which would be a nice fit. I can’t see how he doesn’t get a major league contract.

[dgalehouse]

There are not too many pitchers who are willing to go pitch in the minors for an unspecified period just in case you might need them at some point. I don't think Clay Buchholz is one of them . Most of the ones who are willing to do it are rather desperate mediocrities who don't provide much depth besides another rag arm to run out there.

[fxkatt]

I think, in part, the problem with signing Clay is his history with this team. Do we want to return to this same ole waiting game with him.. will he be available, will he not: will he be good--will he break through. It's an old song. And then there's that saying "You can't go home again," which carries even more weight when you might not be wanted there.

[jacksonianmarch]

Clay has always been a punching bag in Boston because the production never matched the potential. His attitude didn’t help. On the whole, he’s had a successful career and made a lot of money throwing a baseball. But when he came up, you saw Lester like talent and he just never lived up to it

[Fisk]

Clay has always been a punching bag in Boston because the production never matched the potential. His attitude didn’t help. On the whole, he’s had a successful career and made a lot of money throwing a baseball. But when he came up, you saw Lester like talent and he just never lived up to it

 

Injuries and that oh s*** scared look on the mound were his downfall.

[Kimmi]

There are not too many pitchers who are willing to go pitch in the minors for an unspecified period just in case you might need them at some point. I don't think Clay Buchholz is one of them . Most of the ones who are willing to do it are rather desperate mediocrities who don't provide much depth besides another rag arm to run out there.

 

You are right that most dumpster dives usually won't amount to much. The point is that they are risk free. They are worth taking the chance on.

[Kimmi]

I think, in part, the problem with signing Clay is his history with this team. Do we want to return to this same ole waiting game with him.. will he be available, will he not: will he be good--will he break through. It's an old song. And then there's that saying "You can't go home again," which carries even more weight when you might not be wanted there.

 

I don't think that's part of the problem that most people have, I think that's the entire problem. If Clay had not played with the Red Sox in the past, I think people would be more open to signing him to a minor league deal.

[Bellhorn04]

Clay has always been a punching bag in Boston because the production never matched the potential. His attitude didn’t help. On the whole, he’s had a successful career and made a lot of money throwing a baseball. But when he came up, you saw Lester like talent and he just never lived up to it

 

Clay has never really had an attitude problem as such. But when he got injured in 2013 after a terrific start, and attributed it to sleeping the wrong way or some such thing, that was when he really started catching a lot of flak.

[cp176]

I think, in part, the problem with signing Clay is his history with this team. Do we want to return to this same ole waiting game with him.. will he be available, will he not: will he be good--will he break through. It's an old song. And then there's that saying "You can't go home again," which carries even more weight when you might not be wanted there.

 

I think that would be a logical response from any team that had a Clay Buchholz playing for them. The name of the city means nothing it is just the way people in general see things. If he costs a dollar to sign to a minor league contract, what to heck not much risk there.

[cp176]

Clay has never really had an attitude problem as such. But when he got injured in 2013 after a terrific start, and attributed it to sleeping the wrong way or some such thing, that was when he really started catching a lot of flak.

 

 

The fact that when the cameras focused on him he did quite often have an unusual look in his eyes doesn't mean that he had an attitude problem. He just looked like his light bulb was of the low voltage variety. After learning a little more about him, i grew to like him. I would not be opposed to giving him another shot at all. I agree with you - I never felt the he was guilty of having a bad attitude.

[mvp 78]

They are going with the same staff that helped lead them to 108 wins and a WS. Seems ok to me.

[mvp 78]

Clay has never really had an attitude problem as such. But when he got injured in 2013 after a terrific start, and attributed it to sleeping the wrong way or some such thing, that was when he really started catching a lot of flak.

 

Didn't help that in his prior 5 seasons to that he only had one season with WAR above 1. He came in with a lot of potential, but seemed to waste it and just have shaky season after shaky season.

[Bellhorn04]

Didn't help that in his prior 5 seasons to that he only had one season with WAR above 1. He came in with a lot of potential, but seemed to waste it and just have shaky season after shaky season.

 

That's all true. Last year he showed that he still has the high quality stuff. He also showed that he's still incredibly injury-prone.

[mvp 78]

That's all true. Last year he showed that he still has the high quality stuff. He also showed that he's still incredibly injury-prone.

 

Hard for the defending champs to fill a roster spot with a guy like that. He'll get a ML deal elsewhere and that's probably for the best.

 

I think we all rooted for Clay to succeed but it always seemed "one step forward, two steps back" with him. Fans see him as a guy with top of the rotation talent (which he's shown flashes of) but either his body, preparation or something else is preventing him for consistently being successful.

[notin]

Hard for the defending champs to fill a roster spot with a guy like that. He'll get a ML deal elsewhere and that's probably for the best.

 

I think we all rooted for Clay to succeed but it always seemed "one step forward, two steps back" with him. Fans see him as a guy with top of the rotation talent (which he's shown flashes of) but either his body, preparation or something else is preventing him for consistently being successful.

 

It wouldn’t be incredibly surprising if Clay’s lengthy injury history prevented anyone from offering him a Major League deal.. But if someone does, so be it.

 

I’d love to see the Sox bring him back on a minor league deal, but he will probably have his choice of those...

[S5Dewey]

Maybe a little worse but more dependable.

 

I fail to see why you consider Clay to be undependable. I see him as being very dependable. We can depend on him to go down with an injury sometime during the season. It's also not unreasonable to think he's going to put up 5-10 wins, have an EA of ~4.00 and be ~.500 when he's pitching. Where else do you find someone like that for Minor League money???

[cp176]

I fail to see why you consider Clay to be undependable. I see him as being very dependable. We can depend on him to go down with an injury sometime during the season. It's also not unreasonable to think he's going to put up 5-10 wins, have an EA of ~4.00 and be ~.500 when he's pitching. Where else do you find someone like that for Minor League money???

 

Excellent! Minor league next to nothing $ - I'd sign him in a heartbeat.

It really does remain to be seen whether anyone offers him a major league contract but I bet he would get a ton of interest if the thought was that he would take a minor league contract. The but in all of this is I don't think that we can assume that he would even want to come back to Boston.

[moonslav59]

I fail to see why you consider Clay to be undependable. I see him as being very dependable. We can depend on him to go down with an injury sometime during the season. It's also not unreasonable to think he's going to put up 5-10 wins, have an EA of ~4.00 and be ~.500 when he's pitching. Where else do you find someone like that for Minor League money???

 

1) He will geta ML deal, so all this is moot.

2) I want a pitcher who will likely be ready at anytime we need to call him up.

3) Would I be upset, if we signed Clay to a minor league deal? No, but I'd rather go for dependability, since we are not likely to get many takers, since our staff is solid 5 deep and there's pretty good competition for the 6 slot already.

[notin]

1) He will geta ML deal, so all this is moot.

.

 

It’s a little counterintuitive to argue that he’s not dependable on one hand but that he will also get guaranteed money on the other. Buchholz provides no guarantees with regards to availability so I doubt any team provides a guarantee for money.

 

He’s pitched 105 IP combined in the last two seasons, both of which ended in injury. No GM is giving him guaranteed money...

[S5Dewey]

1) He will geta ML deal, so all this is moot.

2) I want a pitcher who will likely be ready at anytime we need to call him up.

3) Would I be upset, if we signed Clay to a minor league deal? No, but I'd rather go for dependability, since we are not likely to get many takers, since our staff is solid 5 deep and there's pretty good competition for the 6 slot already.

 

So who's more valuable to a team, an injury-prone pitcher who goes 7-7 in 18 starts over a partial year or a dependable pitcher who goes 5-15 over an entire season? Because that 5-15 is what you're likely going to get when you're signing someone to a minor league contract and then calling him up to pitch in the majors.

We're not talking about some kid off the street here. We're talking about a pitcher with elite stuff. Money being what it is today I'd even take a chance and sign him to a $4m - $5M major league contract, but that's just me.

[moonslav59]

It’s a little counterintuitive to argue that he’s not dependable on one hand but that he will also get guaranteed money on the other. Buchholz provides no guarantees with regards to availability so I doubt any team provides a guarantee for money.

 

He’s pitched 105 IP combined in the last two seasons, both of which ended in injury. No GM is giving him guaranteed money...

 

We'll see. Look at Brett Anderson.

 

Even if he doesn't, he will choose a team he knows that, if he's healthy, he can easily win a starting slot in their rotation.

 

We are 5 solid deep and Wright should be healthy.

[moonslav59]

So who's more valuable to a team, an injury-prone pitcher who goes 7-7 in 18 starts over a partial year or a dependable pitcher who goes 5-15 over an entire season? Because that 5-15 is what you're likely going to get when you're signing someone to a minor league contract and then calling him up to pitch in the majors.

We're not talking about some kid off the street here. We're talking about a pitcher with elite stuff. Money being what it is today I'd even take a chance and sign him to a $4m - $5M major league contract, but that's just me.

 

When you are talking about a 6th or 7th starter, you don't know when you might need him. It would be great if Buch was healthy and pitching well the instant we needed him, but the odds are low.

 

If we end up needing a pitcher to give us 15-20 starts, we will look for next year's Eovaldi or Happ.

 

To answer your question, I'd rather count on Wright, Johnson and Velazquez as starter depth and make a trade, if needed rather than adding Buch to the mix. If he agrees to a minor league deal, I won't complain, but I think we can do better.