Where does Ian Kinsler rank in Red Sox infamy?

[S5Dewey]

Here's an easy question for everyone:

 

Q. What do Buckner, Gedman, Pesky, and Willams have in common that Kinsler doesn't?

 

A. The first four all played on teams that lost. Kinsler's team won.

 

Time heals all wounds when you win. It also keeps wounds open when you lose.

 

This whole thread is much ado about nothing. In five years Kinsler's error will be nothing but a footnote, an E in the box score.

[Dojji]

Everything you said about Kinsler, while true, could also be said about Buckner. Yet here we are with a thread about Buckner 32 years later...

 

Buckner's error happened in game 6 and led directly to a defeat.

 

Kinsler's error happened in game 3 and didn't even result in the loss of the game. At most they cost the team an opportunity to win game 3 in regulation.

 

An error that resulted in a walkoff vs an error that resulted in a tie game.

 

An error that resulted in the team having only one last chance to win the Series vs an error that, even if you credit it with the game 3 defeat, which is dubious, the team had 4 games with which to recover.

 

An error that tied the Series and wiped out every postseason advantage the Red Sox had and turned the whole thing from a coronation into a coin flip vs an error that, at most, prevented a sweep.

 

One of these things is not like the other.

[notin]

Buckner's error happened in game 6 and led directly to a defeat.

 

Kinsler's error happened in game 3 and didn't even result in the loss of the game. At most they cost the team an opportunity to win game 3 in regulation.

 

An error that resulted in a walkoff vs an error that resulted in a tie game.

 

An error that resulted in the team having only one last chance to win the Series vs an error that, even if you credit it with the game 3 defeat, which is dubious, the team had 4 games with which to recover.

 

An error that tied the Series and wiped out every postseason advantage the Red Sox had and turned the whole thing from a coronation into a coin flip vs an error that, at most, prevented a sweep.

 

One of these things is not like the other.

 

You are incorrect.

 

If Kinsler made his play, the Sox win the game. If Buckner made his play, the game was still tied and there was no guarantee of a win, much less a coronation. The game was tied moments earlier on Gedman’s passed ball that allowed Kevin Mitchell to score and put Ray Knight into scoring position...

[Dojji]

If Buckner made the play, the Sox had a fighting chance to win Game 6 with game 7 in hand. His error removed that possibility.

[notin]

If Buckner made the play, the Sox had a fighting chance to win Game 6 with game 7 in hand. His error removed that possibility.

 

Sure. They had a chance, but that’s it. And like you said about Kinsler’s error, there could have easily been plenty of other mistakes and lost opportunities that cost the Sox the series.

 

In fact, history tells us there already were...

[Dojji]

Yes, but unlike Kinsler's error, Buckner destroyed a chance to win all by himself.

 

No matter how you twist the facts, an error that leads directly to defeat in a potential clinching game is a lot worse than an error that ties a game and, at most, prevents a sweep.

[notin]

Yes, but unlike Kinsler's error, Buckner destroyed a chance to win all by himself.

 

No matter how you twist the facts, an error that leads directly to defeat in a potential clinching game is a lot worse than an error that ties a game and, at most, prevents a sweep.

 

I haven’t twisted any facts. You came closer when you said his error prevented a coronation.

 

You yourself said if the Sox lost that series, it would be because of other far more significant events and mistakes. Well, that is EXACTLY what happened with Buckner. I’ve already highlighted Gedman’s passed ball as one more significant mistake. The Sox also blew a 3-0 lead in game 7. Heck, the Sox pitching staff had a 2-0 game lead coming into three games at Fenway and didn’t get it done. Yet despite all this, all anyone remembers is an error in game 6 that only served the purpose of preventing more innings in a game that was already tied...

[Spudboy]

So true and so sad - Buckner's line over 20 + years of professional baseball looks pretty darn good and unfortunately the only thing some remember him for is that one play.

 

Which is unfair in my eyes as I think Calvin Shiraldi had a lot to do with losing in '86.

[moonslav59]

Which is unfair in my eyes as I think Calvin Shiraldi had a lot to do with losing in '86.

 

Yes.

 

How many "mistakes" did Calvin make?

 

Certainly many more than Buckner.

[Bellhorn04]

Schiraldi deserves some sympathy too IMO. He threw 55 pitches in that game. He was gassed. And he was throwing strikes, the Mets just managed to turn them into 3 singles in a row.

[Spudboy]

11 Mil? Is Kinsler due that?

 

As Kimi said it was a smart pickup and helped noticeably.

 

No f***ing way I would pay that guy more than 2-3 mil a year at this point.

 

He has declined from a good hitting glovey second baseman with swat to a .230-.240 hitter with a good glove. IIRC he has lost 40 or so points off his career average the past two seasons.

 

I'd rather pay Holt that money (3 mil) and pick-up another vet or bring up Lin mid season.

[Dojji]

You have two choices in life. You either pay for what you get, or you get what you pay for.

[Jasonbay44]

11 Mil? Is Kinsler due that?

 

As Kimi said it was a smart pickup and helped noticeably.

 

No f***ing way I would pay that guy more than 2-3 mil a year at this point.

 

He has declined from a good hitting glovey second baseman with swat to a .230-.240 hitter with a good glove. IIRC he has lost 40 or so points off his career average the past two seasons.

 

I'd rather pay Holt that money (3 mil) and pick-up another vet or bring up Lin mid season.

 

Kinsler is a free agent, I don't think he'll be back, especially not for 10+ million.

[Kimmi]

Here's an easy question for everyone:

 

Q. What do Buckner, Gedman, Pesky, and Willams have in common that Kinsler doesn't?

 

A. The first four all played on teams that lost. Kinsler's team won.

 

Time heals all wounds when you win. It also keeps wounds open when you lose.

 

This whole thread is much ado about nothing. In five years Kinsler's error will be nothing but a footnote, an E in the box score.

 

Whether a team wins or loses a series, it is really kind of unfair for anyone (I'm not saying you) to blame a single player or error for losing a game, much less a series. There are far too many plays in a game to say that the outcome of the game hinged on one play. Sure, had Kinsler not made that error the Sox might have won that game. But the Sox might have also won that game if any of 1000 other things happened differently during the game.

[Dojji]

The Sox had at least 2 full trips through the lineup to try to retake that lead after the Kinsler error.

[cp176]

11 Mil? Is Kinsler due that?

 

As Kimi said it was a smart pickup and helped noticeably.

 

No f***ing way I would pay that guy more than 2-3 mil a year at this point.

 

He has declined from a good hitting glovey second baseman with swat to a .230-.240 hitter with a good glove. IIRC he has lost 40 or so points off his career average the past two seasons.

 

I'd rather pay Holt that money (3 mil) and pick-up another vet or bring up Lin mid season.

 

 

there is no way the Sox are going to pay 11 million for Kinsler. I love what he is able to bring and if he brought it for 2-3, he might have a job in Boston. We have too many alternatives at second base to worry too much about him at this point. He helped us win a title and we should be happy about that and for him.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox had at least 2 full trips through the lineup to try to retake that lead after the Kinsler error.

 

Sports fans are not fair or logical about these things.

 

It's scapegoating - it's primitive, tribal, but it's a reality.

 

You don't seem in any hurry to let Buckner off the hook.

[cp176]

Bill Buckner - 1986

153 games

629 at bats

18 home runs

102 rbi's

25 strikeouts!

.267

 

Man we would have been so much better off in 1986 without this guy! I have literally no respect for anyone who considers him at all responsible for that particular loss.

[mvp 78]

Sports fans are not fair or logical about these things.

 

It's scapegoating - it's primitive, tribal, but it's a reality.

 

You don't seem in any hurry to let Buckner off the hook.

 

I blame Steamer and Schiraldi, not Buckner.

[Slasher9]

Dwight Evans Error in 5th inning cost us a run. game never goes to extra innings.

Roger Clemens being a pussy with his "blister" pulls himself from the game after 7 innings - Sox give up a run in the 8th. game never goes to extra innings.

speaking of the 8th inning run - if we can field a f***ing bunt and get the out at first base there is no Sac Fly for Gary Carter. game never goes to extra innings.

 

every out matters. get those outs and we win this World Series without even going extra innings in Game 6 let alone need to bother playing Game 7.

[Kimmi]

The Sox had at least 2 full trips through the lineup to try to retake that lead after the Kinsler error.

 

Plus, what about all the trips through the lineup before that error where they could have taken the lead?

[notin]

Plus, what about all the trips through the lineup before that error where they could have taken the lead?

 

By the time Kinsler made the error, what was left of the lineup was pretty abysmal. Before the series, people were worried about having Vazquez or Leon on the lineup, as it created a weak spot. That game the Sox had both of them in their for what was about a full game worth of innings...

[Tedballgame]

I blame Steamer and Schiraldi, not Buckner.

Exactly correct. I feel the same way. Buckner should have written the Brothers Osborne song, " It Ain't My Fault".