Dave Dombrowski

[mvp 78]

Throw out 2012 completely. It doesn't count.

 

Yes, it stinks finishing in last place. However, neither of those teams should have been that bad. They were both projected to be contenders, and the 2014 team was the overwhelming favorite to win the division.

 

In fact, since Henry bought the team, every team assembled has been projected to be a contender. That's really all you can ask of your GM (and your owner). The GM has done his job. Sometimes, with baseball being the fluky game that it is, things don't go according to plan. I can live with that.

 

What I don't want happening is to know, going into the season, that your team has no chance. #thecliffisreal

 

12 doesn’t count and 14 shoulda been good. That’s not an argument I’d hang my hat on and I’ve been known to use flimsy hat racks.

[cp176]

The pitching staff Ben assembled for the 2015 season was not his finest work.

 

It really is obvious to me anyway that Ben was not ready for the big job. I wasn't ready for someone taking over who had to really learn on the fly regardless of the praise heaped on him for what he did.

[Jack Flap]

The pitching staff Ben assembled for the 2015 season was not his finest work.

 

That's putting it charitably.

[iortiz]

Not sure why you guys are comparing Cherrys with Master Dave. Cherrys was just LL’s puppet while Master Dave is the Decision Maker since he arrived —Apples with Oranges.

 

Said that, DD has made a terrific job since he arrived. All engines are at full capacity this year as planned. This year is going to be the cherry of the cake of his tenure at Red Sox FO. Save my words.

[Spudboy]

Not sure why you guys are comparing Cherrys with Master Dave. Cherrys was just LL’s puppet while Master Dave is the Decision Maker since he arrived —Apples with Oranges.

 

Said that, DD has made a terrific job since he arrived. All engines are at full capacity this year as planned. This year is going to be the cherry of the cake of his tenure at Red Sox FO. Save my words.

 

Amen brah.

[Slasher9]

Fair enough cp. as long as it is also fair to say that Ben was never given a $235MM payroll and still gave us a parade....

[a700hitter]

I'd rather a decimated farm system than 3 last place finishes in 4 years. Those were some s***** summers.

Those were awful summers. We were out of the race, by the time Memorial Day rolled around. We were not in contention for any portion of those summers.

[a700hitter]

At the end of the day, we traded a lot of bodies, but quantity does not equal quality. One issue I have with the "cliff" and "depleted farm" narratives is that they make it sound as if keeping all those guys around would have vastly improved our long-term outlook, which I think is far from evident. If you think we're headed for a rough patch somewhere around 2020-2021, then I doubt still having Manny Margot, Javier Guerra, the Basabe brothers, et. al. would change that much.

 

Those are not building blocks unless you are building a trash heap.

[Bellhorn04]

Fair enough cp. as long as it is also fair to say that Ben was never given a $235MM payroll and still gave us a parade....

 

It's also fair to point out that the 235 million includes 55 million of dead money for Hanley, Pablo and Pedroia inherited by DD.

[mvp 78]

Fair enough cp. as long as it is also fair to say that Ben was never given a $235MM payroll and still gave us a parade....

 

2012: 3rd highest team salary in MLB

2013: 4th highest team salary in MLB

2014: 4th highest team salary in MLB

2015: 3rd highest team salary in MLB

 

Sox weren't really the sisters of the poor when Ben was in charge.

[Slasher9]

2012: 3rd highest team salary in MLB

2013: 4th highest team salary in MLB

2014: 4th highest team salary in MLB

2015: 3rd highest team salary in MLB

 

Sox weren't really the sisters of the poor when Ben was in charge.

The total salary was not even close.

[a700hitter]

The total salary was not even close.

it was incongruous that he could finish last with those payrolls and DDvis still carrying a good deal of those salaries. Take away Panda’s and Hanley’s salaries and where are we?

[mvp 78]

The total salary was not even close.

 

Not sure what total salary has to do with anything? How much dead money was Ben eating at the time? I don't believe much of anything.

[Dojji]

Ben Cherington made some awful signings. He had all the resources he needed to build a contender and he squandered a lot of them.

[Slasher9]

it was incongruous that he could finish last with those payrolls and DDvis still carrying a good deal of those salaries. Take away Panda’s and Hanley’s salaries and where are we?

 

Did you think they were last place teams? I didn’t. Especially 2014. 2015 can definitely be debated as our SP was not even good on paper. There are ways to get rid of dead money if you are a good enough GM. Remember Crawford?

[mvp 78]

Did you think they were last place teams? I didn’t. Especially 2014. 2015 can definitely be debated as our SP was not even good on paper. There are ways to get rid of dead money if you are a good enough GM. Remember Crawford?

 

But they ended up last place teams. What we thought of them in March is irrelevant.

[Slasher9]

Not sure what total salary has to do with anything? How much dead money was Ben eating at the time? I don't believe much of anything.

 

That’s because we had a GM that knew how to get rid of dead money without decimating the farm in the process....

[Slasher9]

But they ended up last place teams. What we thought of them in March is irrelevant.

 

If you give me a parade every 4th year, I will take the last place finishes the other 3. Especially if I am going into every one of those seasons believing we can win.

[notin]

If you give me a parade every 4th year, I will take the last place finishes the other 3. Especially if I am going into every one of those seasons believing we can win.

 

Pre-Henry era, a lot of fans said that. But the past 15 years have spoiled a lot of Sox fans...

[Dojji]

Did you think they were last place teams? I didn’t. Especially 2014. 2015 can definitely be debated as our SP was not even good on paper. There are ways to get rid of dead money if you are a good enough GM. Remember Crawford?

 

I think that at the end of the day, results matter. They may have looked like contenders on paper, but we don't play baseball on paper. When the proverbial rubber met the road, severe weaknesses in the team's defense, intangibles and especially starting pitching sunk the team like a rock.

 

These things are the domain of the GM. They are his job to resolve, and it's ESPECIALLY his job to adjust the roster and change the plan to prevent problems like this from snowballing like they did in especially 14 and 15. Having these probpelms bounce back 2 years in a row is unacceptable with the resources this team can field. A GM is supposed to identify the problems in a troubled roster and make adjustments to the team to right the ship, and help the team recover from poor seasons. Cherington did not do this in 2015 especially, and that's why he's no longer here.

 

2 years into a major slump, everyone could see what the issues were. We needed another starting pitcher, we needed to beef up the bullpen, and we needed to improve our infield defense in particular. Cherington failed to adjust the team and waited for the youth movement. That would have worked in KC or Cleveland, but you CAN'T baseball like that in a major market like Boston. You can't take all that money from the fans and run the team like it's in the poor house.

 

And this is compounded by the fact that not only did he NOT address the major issue of the franchise in free agency (STARTING FREAKING PITCHING!), even in the face of the fact that our minor leagues were not producing results in that area either making signing starting pitchers mandatory and he STILL dragged his feet, but he also spent his money -- on expensive position players in areas of no need.

 

Even if you believe that Cherington was LL's puppet, his job was to put some baseball knowhow behind LL's decisions. This job was clearly not done. Even if you favored the strategy of a youth movement, the way Cherington did this is just not how you do it in Boston. You have to cover your roster with veteran professionals who do their job while the youth movement generates from the minors. You have the resources to do both, making the decision to do one or the other a false dichotomy, and this is where Cherington failed..

[Slasher9]

Pre-Henry era, a lot of fans said that. But the past 15 years have spoiled a lot of Sox fans...

 

So true. In October 2004 i 100% said that the Sox could go ahead and lose every game for the rest of my life if they could beat the Yankees in ALCS and have a parade.....

[Bellhorn04]

If you give me a parade every 4th year, I will take the last place finishes the other 3. Especially if I am going into every one of those seasons believing we can win.

 

Pre-Henry era, a lot of fans said that. But the past 15 years have spoiled a lot of Sox fans...

 

I normally agree with that sentiment about being spoiled.

 

But you have to admit the results of the Cherington years were flat-out weird, especially 2012-2014.

 

69-93 (worst record since 1965)

Championship

71-91 (2nd worst record since 1965)

[Slasher9]

Great post doji

[notin]

So true. In October 2004 i 100% said that the Sox could go ahead and lose every game for the rest of my life if they could beat the Yankees in ALCS and have a parade.....

 

Bill Simmons summed it up best in the book title - “Now I Can Die In Peace”...

[Dojji]

I normally agree with that sentiment about being spoiled.

 

But you have to admit the results of the Cherington years were flat-out weird, especially 2012-2014.

 

69-93 (worst record since 1965)

Championship

71-91 (2nd worst record since 1965)

 

A year in which the team had as much talent as it had in 2012, 2014 and 2015, and loses more games than it wins, is never acceptable. If the roster was depleted that's one thing, but the Red Sox roster overall was very talented, it just had holes in key areas, particularly the starting pitching. I refuse to believe we didn't have the resources to fix this more quickly. The resources we had were simply not used well. That's directly on the GM

[Dojji]

Bill Simmons summed it up best in the book title - “Now I Can Die In Peace”...

... "but since I'm still kicking it, and love this team, it will tear my heart out to see them lose -- every time."

[notin]

I normally agree with that sentiment about being spoiled.

 

But you have to admit the results of the Cherington years were flat-out weird, especially 2012-2014.

 

69-93 (worst record since 1965)

Championship

71-91 (2nd worst record since 1965)

 

True.

 

One of those seasons he was saddled with payroll limitations (and forced to trade Marco Scutaro), and saddled with the incompetent Bobby Valentine.

 

His signings of Hanley (which I liked) and Sandoval (which I hated) certainly were bad moves for the franchise. Castillo will likely be another failure, although Rusney has shown enough of a glimmer that the jury should still be out a bit longer...

[notin]

A year in which the team had as much talent as it had in 2012, 2014 and 2015, and loses more games than it wins, is never acceptable. If the roster was depleted that's one thing, but the Red Sox roster overall was very talented, it just had holes in key areas, particularly the starting pitching. I refuse to believe we didn't have the resources to fix this more quickly. The resources we had were simply not used well. That's directly on the GM

 

The Sox did have Lester and Lackey for the majority of those years. Lackey was the rare free agent bust who finished so strong, many don’t consider him one.

 

In 2015, the Sox didn’t have starting pitching. The 2012 rotation added only Ryan Dempster and won a title one year later...

[Bellhorn04]

The 2012 rotation added only Ryan Dempster and won a title one year later...

 

Which is just one of the reasons the 2013 team was somewhat miraculous.

[Dojji]

I give a pass for 2012, if only because the writing was on the wall for that one at the outset, with the collapse of the remnants of the old 2007 core at the heart of the issues with that team. The selection of manager did not help, but whoever we put in there would have had a tough act to follow after Tito.

 

(was that deliberate? To take a lost year to reset our managerial expectations before putting the guy you wanted in place? We'll probably never know)

 

The real problem to me is the 2014 and especially the 2015 season. The cracks in the foundation were ever more and more obvious, and Cherington showed an unacceptable rigidness of holding to The Plan instead of making needed adjustments in season or even between seasons. If LL hadn't forced his hand I doubt we would have spent money at all, even on Porcello. That also resulted in bad signings like the Pablob, but at least it was doing SOMETHING. Left to his own devices I wonder if Cherington would have done that much

 

Cherington had a midmarket philosophy for how to deal with these problems, build up the farm and regenerate from the endless supply of youth his drafts would generate. he clearly wanted to clear the roster and build over again from the ground up, while waiting patiently for his garden to produce fruit. You just CAN'T do that in a major market. You have to make a show of trying to contend in the down years. Without Luccino forcing his hand I wonder if Cherington would have done even that much.