Rafael Devers struggles/triumphs and the future

[devildavid]

We paid Renteria $40M for 1 year.

 

It was worse than Horrid.

 

Because management didn't stick with him, as they should have. The deal was fine; they gave up on Renteria too soon. Even Panda and Hanley got more of a chance.

[Natick to NC]

We paid Renteria $40M for 1 year.

 

It was worse than Horrid.

 

Moon don't bite my head off with this but ....why not send Devers down the rest of the year and go get Moose ? Or if Pedey can't handle the load anymore go get Scooter Gennette ? Either one is a plug And play .Devers will figure it out ..but maybe not with the big club right now ? It feels rushed now .or at the very least platoon Moose and Devers ?

Edited June 9, 2018 by Natick to NC

[moonslav59]

Can somebody please give me ANY SPECIFIC Minor League stat that portends the slightest possibility of Swi becoming "special?" Or.... Even remotely good as a MLB player?

 

Exactly. While I do think Swihart has a chance to shine, the drying over him never getting a chance is bukk cah cah. We've given him more chances than his play has deserved.

 

(He was .810 back in 2014, and some are gah-gah based on that?

Edited June 9, 2018 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Moon don't bite my head off with this but ....why not send Devers down the rest of the year and go get Moose ? Or if Pedey can't handle the load anymore go get Scooter Gennette ? Either one is a plug And play .Devers will figure it out ..but maybe not with the big club right now ? It feels rushed now .or at the very least platoon Moose and Devers ?

 

I'm weeks and weeks away from even thinking about demoting Devers.

[moonslav59]

Because management didn't stick with him, as they should have. The deal was fine; they gave up on Renteria too soon. Even Panda and Hanley got more of a chance.

 

He wasn't built for the spotlight of Boston.

Plus, we got Coco Crisp via 2 trades.

[moonslav59]

Because management didn't stick with him, as they should have. The deal was fine; they gave up on Renteria too soon. Even Panda and Hanley got more of a chance.

 

There was talk of injury, but the guy made 30 errors (more than his 2 previous years combined) along with being close to a dud on offense.

 

He also sucked the last year of his 4 year deal while in Detroit.

 

(BTW, I never said he was a worse signing than HRam & Pablito, but $40M back in 2005 was like $60M now.)

 

My point was meant to show that we've made bad signings for years. Anyone who signs as many guts as we do, have plenty of busts.

[moonslav59]

While it is a truism it doesn't excuse stupidity. Yes, some decisions get derailed by injuries or the like and one can excuse that type of bad signing. I am bothered by the ones where the baseball executives haven't thought through the process fully. They haven't identfied the goals for making moves and identify any pitfalls associated with them. You can see that from the messes they have gotten into. Many decisions look like they were generated by a committee and not by a clear thinking baseball man. Many Lucchino was on the committee.

 

I think DD has done well so far with the exception of the Price contract, which I find absurd.

 

Price and Thornburg look like his only two bad moves, but if we don't win a ring in the next 2-3 years, the Pom, Kimbrel and maybe other trades may be judged more harshly, especially of someone goes on to become Jeff Bagwell.

[notin]

He wasn't built for the spotlight of Boston.

Plus, we got Coco Crisp via 2 trades.

 

Based on what?

 

He handled the spotlight of St. Louis (which is VERY bright for MLB) and the spotlight of the World Series...

[Bellhorn04]

Price and Thornburg look like his only two bad moves, but if we don't win a ring in the next 2-3 years, the Pom, Kimbrel and maybe other trades may be judged more harshly, especially of someone goes on to become Jeff Bagwell.

 

Eh, the real killer on the Bagwell trade was that he was traded for a 2-month rental of a relief pitcher. A good one, but a setup guy, not even a closer. We got a grand total of 25 innings out of him.

[notin]

Moon don't bite my head off with this but ....why not send Devers down the rest of the year and go get Moose ? Or if Pedey can't handle the load anymore go get Scooter Gennette ? Either one is a plug And play .Devers will figure it out ..but maybe not with the big club right now ? It feels rushed now .or at the very least platoon Moose and Devers ?

 

Platoon Moose and Devers? Two lefties?

 

Platoons are small market baseball. When teams can't afford one good player, they go out and find two dirt cheap bad players to take the single role. It's like when Jerry and George starting dating the one girl on Seinfeld. "The two of us, working together at full capacity, can do the job of one normal man!"

[moonslav59]

Based on what?

 

He handled the spotlight of St. Louis (which is VERY bright for MLB) and the spotlight of the World Series...

 

I usually hate the "spotlight" argument, like when it was used with Melancon and others, but didn't LaRussa or someone say he knew all along he'd wilt under the spotlight?

 

No matter the reason, Renteria was a big let down and ended up costing us close to $40M for one year of play back in 2005, which is worth at least $50M in today's MLB dollars.

[moonslav59]

Eh, the real killer on the Bagwell trade was that he was traded for a 2-month rental of a relief pitcher. A good one, but a setup guy, not even a closer. We got a grand total of 25 innings out of him.

 

Very true, but had Anderson played a key roll in us winning a ring that year, we'd be looking at that trade a little differently.

 

Remember the Curt Schilling & Brady Anderson for Mike Boddicker deal? At least Mike was signed for more than 2 months.

[notin]

I usually hate the "spotlight" argument, like when it was used with Melancon and others, but didn't LaRussa or someone say he knew all along he'd wilt under the spotlight?

 

No matter the reason, Renteria was a big let down and ended up costing us close to $40M for one year of play back in 2005, which is worth at least $50M in today's MLB dollars.

 

LaRissa did say that, but it was a one year opportunity. Did Renters also "wilt" under the intense spotlight of Detroit?

 

Hr looked injured to me. I remember noticing that he never once diving for a groundball....

[moonslav59]

LaRissa did say that, but it was a one year opportunity. Did Renters also "wilt" under the intense spotlight of Detroit?

 

Hr looked injured to me. I remember noticing that he never once diving for a groundball....

 

Yes, I heard the injury (back?) argument a few times, and I'm fine with blaming it on that, but the fact is he was not worth any where near the $40M we paid him for 2005.

 

Somehow, I feel like if Ben had made this deal, he'd be blamed for it, and the injury argument wouldn't count as much.

 

Afterall, HRam was hurt a lot, Pablo had some injuries and is at .787 with SF right now, and Price has been hurt (DD's guy).

 

[cp176]

Very true, but had Anderson played a key roll in us winning a ring that year, we'd be looking at that trade a little differently.

 

Remember the Curt Schilling & Brady Anderson for Mike Boddicker deal? At least Mike was signed for more than 2 months.

 

Only the psychic reader here in town could have predicted Jeff Bagwell to have the career that he had. In hindsight, like so many others, it looks like a bad trade. At the time, it looked like a good strong move.

[notin]

I'm weeks and weeks away from even thinking about demoting Devers.

 

 

When is it time to think about denoting Devers?

 

The Bradley trade thread was started a month ago. Devers had been as bad or worse since that time. At some point, should the Sox think about maybe trading for an infielder like Jed Lowrie or Logan Forsythe or David Freeze and demoting Devers?

[Slasher9]

Rentieria was a steroids guy. His body broke down very quickly

[S5Dewey]

Only the psychic reader here in town could have predicted Jeff Bagwell to have the career that he had. In hindsight, like so many others, it looks like a bad trade. At the time, it looked like a good strong move.

 

I'm feeling better about this all the time! I thought I was the only Red Sox fan on the planet who isn't crying about the Bagwell trade. The way I remember it the Sox were in a playoff run and needed bullpen help, and Jeff Bagwell was highly regarded but nobody knew he was going to turn out to be JEFF BAGWELL.

The Sox gave to get. As Moon said, if that trade had resulted in a WSC it would have been called a win/win trade. Unfortunately they didn't so it's now somehow became the benchmark for bad trades the Sox have made. Good ol' 20/20 hindsight.

 

But now I know that there are (at least) three of us who aren't crying about that trade.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm feeling better about this all the time! I thought I was the only Red Sox fan on the planet who isn't crying about the Bagwell trade. The way I remember it the Sox were in a playoff run and needed bullpen help, and Jeff Bagwell was highly regarded but nobody knew he was going to turn out to be JEFF BAGWELL.

The Sox gave to get. As Moon said, if that trade had resulted in a WSC it would have been called a win/win trade. Unfortunately they didn't so it's now somehow became the benchmark for bad trades the Sox have made. Good ol' 20/20 hindsight.

 

But now I know that there are (at least) three of us who aren't crying about that trade.

 

But you despised the Iglesias for Peavy trade.

[Thunder]

Eh, the real killer on the Bagwell trade was that he was traded for a 2-month rental of a relief pitcher. A good one, but a setup guy, not even a closer. We got a grand total of 25 innings out of him.

 

Wow, I did not know this information. This changes everything.

[cp176]

I'm feeling better about this all the time! I thought I was the only Red Sox fan on the planet who isn't crying about the Bagwell trade. The way I remember it the Sox were in a playoff run and needed bullpen help, and Jeff Bagwell was highly regarded but nobody knew he was going to turn out to be JEFF BAGWELL.

The Sox gave to get. As Moon said, if that trade had resulted in a WSC it would have been called a win/win trade. Unfortunately they didn't so it's now somehow became the benchmark for bad trades the Sox have made. Good ol' 20/20 hindsight.

 

But now I know that there are (at least) three of us who aren't crying about that trade.

 

We lived through it SS. Anybody who says that that was a bad trade is one of the following two - 1. full of ******** (quite likely) or 2. Trying to impress people by pretending they know something that others didn't know (which happens all the time)

[Spudboy]

We lived through it SS. Anybody who says that that was a bad trade is one of the following two - 1. full of ******** (quite likely) or 2. Trying to impress people by pretending they know something that others didn't know (which happens all the time)

 

Or 3. Both.

[moonslav59]

One thing I remember about the Bagwell trade was that many said, "We already have a 3Bman in Boggs," but nobody thought about having Bagwell play 1B. I think we had Quintana there at the time, who was okay, but nothing great. I believe Mo Vaughn came along later, and I suppose he could have DH'd.

 

It was a horrible trade in hindsight, and that's how most people judge trades. (GMs have always been judged that way.)

 

It sure seems that way with Ben's deals and choices.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I know he never failed a test, but there were whispers surrounding Bagwell. Who knows. Certainly, the possibility of a player using steroids changes our perception of things. Most notably, Dan Duquette was probably right when he said Clemens was in the twilight of his career. Duquette was highly criticized for making that statement until we learned, later on, about Clemens' PED usage. Likewise, if Bagwell used the juice, maybe the Red Sox didn't trade away such a great player after all. We don't have the evidence that Bagwell used PEDs but he played in the steroids era, fit the profile, and may have used them. Edited June 10, 2018 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

I know he never failed a test, but there were whispers surrounding Bagwell. Who knows. Certainly, the possibility of a player using steroids changes our perception of things. Most notably, Dan Duquette was probably right when he said Clemens was in the twilight of his career. Duquette was highly criticized for making that statement until we learned, later on, about Clemens' PED usage. Likewise, if Bagwell used the juice, maybe the Red Sox didn't trade away such a great player after all. We don't have evidence that Bagwell used PEDs but he played in the steroids era, fit the profile, and may have used them.

 

Who knows.

 

I think he was over .890 for 11 straight years.

 

I guess we'll never know.

 

It sure seems unfair to him, if he never touched the stuff.

[Sox75]

Exactly. While I do think Swihart has a chance to shine, the drying over him never getting a chance is bukk cah cah. We've given him more chances than his play has deserved.

 

(He was .810 back in 2014, and some are gah-gah based on that?

 

And that was in Portland. Small pond. Small sample. We were desperate for a catcher at the time. I've rarely seen a kid so over-sold.

 

Most don't buy it any longer....

[Sox75]

As somebody much more plugged in than I put it, "he's always the 3rd best answer . . . . at any given position.

[Bellhorn04]

One thing I remember about the Bagwell trade was that many said, "We already have a 3Bman in Boggs," but nobody thought about having Bagwell play 1B. I think we had Quintana there at the time, who was okay, but nothing great. I believe Mo Vaughn came along later, and I suppose he could have DH'd.

 

It was a horrible trade in hindsight, and that's how most people judge trades. (GMs have always been judged that way.)

 

It sure seems that way with Ben's deals and choices.

 

Every GM is judged that way, as you say.

[cp176]

One thing I remember about the Bagwell trade was that many said, "We already have a 3Bman in Boggs," but nobody thought about having Bagwell play 1B. I think we had Quintana there at the time, who was okay, but nothing great. I believe Mo Vaughn came along later, and I suppose he could have DH'd.

 

It was a horrible trade in hindsight, and that's how most people judge trades. (GMs have always been judged that way.)

 

It sure seems that way with Ben's deals and choices.

 

I wonder why people judge trades that way? There are some obvious trades and "getaways" that have happened but I have always just kind of looked at trades and acquisitions as part of the gig moving forward. Have to say that I hate getting caught up in the GM speculations that are so debated here. It is easy to do but trying to read things in to what a GM is thinking and trying to assess what they think of how to build a team is just an opportunity for people to try to convince others of things that they really can only guess at. Oh by the way, Ben does get beaten up on here but he is in very good company with the rest of the guys. I guess the big question that I always had about him was was he ready for a job of this magnitude. He had his chance and he is now gone. But what do I know about it? really not much I guess - I was a fan of Duquettes and feel that in the world of "hindsight" he has always been under appreciated.

[Bellhorn04]

I wonder why people judge trades that way? There are some obvious trades and "getaways" that have happened but I have always just kind of looked at trades and acquisitions as part of the gig moving forward. Have to say that I hate getting caught up in the GM speculations that are so debated here. It is easy to do but trying to read things in to what a GM is thinking and trying to assess what they think of how to build a team is just an opportunity for people to try to convince others of things that they really can only guess at. Oh by the way, Ben does get beaten up on here but he is in very good company with the rest of the guys. I guess the big question that I always had about him was was he ready for a job of this magnitude. He had his chance and he is now gone. But what do I know about it? really not much I guess - I was a fan of Duquettes and feel that in the world of "hindsight" he has always been under appreciated.

 

It took a while but I think Duquette finally started to get a lot of hindsight appreciation for the 2004 team. He signed Manny and he made the incredible trades for Pedro and D-Lowe/VTek, after all. And if it's true that Pedro had a lot to do with the Sox signing Ortiz, you could even make a case for a link between Duquette and Papi.