Do we need an offensive catcher?

[Dojji]

question in the title. CV and Leon both have very good track records for their defense, but Vazquez is below the Mendoza line, and Leon is just barely above it. We are getting negative oWAR from the catching position right now, and while it's not the end of the world, it's something to think about.

 

Do you think the Red Sox make a move at some point to pick up a catcher with a bit more stick? Or is the obvious defensive skills of Vazquez and Leon and success of the rotation under their guidance enough to make up for the hole in the lineup?

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Personally I'm satisfied with the catching tandem we have, at least in theory. But watching either one of those men walk up to the plate with 2 outs and a RISP is not fun sometimes, and it's easy to lose perspective when an inning doesn't go your way because one of those guys came to the plate, wet paper bag in hand. I can kind of see both sides here, but I lean towards being happy with the catcher situation.

[mvp 78]

"Offensive"? No. Just some catchers that can be adequate. If Vaz and Leon can hit like they have in the past, they're fine.

[illinoisredsox]

"Offensive"? No. Just some catchers that can be adequate. If Vaz and Leon can hit like they have in the past, they're fine.

 

Vazquez hit .290 last season in 100 games. While that may be the highwater mark for him careerwise, he is certainly capable of putting up numbers in the .240 to .250 range consistently.

 

Leon would probably be about 10 points lower than that.

[mvp 78]

My biggest concern with Vaz is that his overall defensive game seems to either be trending downward or just not improving to what we expected.

 

Leon is fine defensively. I rarely watch a Sandy game and wonder what the heck he's doing back there. Somedays, Vaz just seems out to lunch.

[kenmeister]

Unlike my belief that JBJ is cooked, I think Vaz and Leon will be fine. That said, if the right trade presents itself, getting a catcher who can hit closer to .275 and still is good defensively would really help.

[Station 13]

The Sox gotten by a no hitting catcher for 10+ years now.

[moonslav59]

The Sox gotten by a no hitting catcher for 10+ years now.

 

True, and not that we are near the lead in runs scored, suddenly, it's a problem.

[Spudboy]

Vaz and Leon will hit better than the way they started the season. That should be fine.

 

I say stick with them.

[Kimmi]

I am not willing to sacrifice defense behind the plate to gain more offense. I'm happy with the tandem that we have. Besides, as many have noted, neither one of them is as bad as they are currently hitting.

[notin]

Why would we need to be offended by the catcher?

[Natick to NC]

......for the love of God !!!! yeSssssssssssssssssss !!!!!

[kenmeister]

Vaz and Leon will hit better than the way they started the season. That should be fine.

 

I say stick with them.

 

That said, I'd still like to see if Swihart can actually catch and can actually hit.

[illinoisredsox]

That said, I'd still like to see if Swihart can actually catch and can actually hit.

 

You have a club winning roughly 2/3 of its games (108 win pace) and neck in neck with the Evil Empire. It is not the time to experiment/find out. That is done by second division clubs in September, not potential playoff teams in May.

 

The coaching staff sees him every day. They see him in the bullpen and in the cage. They have the input from the minor league coaches. Not one person here has any of that information. He has not taken advantage of the few chances he's had. He has to do well enough to force the issue; he hasn't.

 

If he's not playing, it's for a reason. If he were better than the other 2, he's be playing.

[notin]

You have a club winning roughly 2/3 of its games (108 win pace) and neck in neck with the Evil Empire. It is not the time to experiment/find out. That is done by second division clubs in September, not potential playoff teams in May.

 

The coaching staff sees him every day. They see him in the bullpen and in the cage. They have the input from the minor league coaches. Not one person here has any of that information. He has not taken advantage of the few chances he's had. He has to if he wants to play.

 

If he's not playing, it's for a reason. If he were better than the other 2, he's be playing.

 

It's actually possible that Cora starts Bradley and Vazquez/Leon as often as the does because he values their defensive contributions. The rest of the team is hitting, but the rest of the team isn't fielding...

[Spudboy]

That said, I'd still like to see if Swihart can actually catch and can actually hit.

 

I agree with this too.

 

Although I believe that he can hit from what I have seen.

[notin]

I agree with this too.

 

Although I believe that he can hit from what I have seen.

 

He has had some decent hitting stretches in the past in MLB. But that doesn't mean he can catch.

 

When he was a rising prospect, I was hoping the Sox would move him to 3B.

 

I do think he can be a league average hitter. But does that mean he should be playing the most difficult defensive position in the game, just because the players currently playing it are not hitting?

[oldtimer]

The question is "Do we need an offensive catcher?". If the real question is do we need a different catcher to be competitive enough to win the pennant or at least get a wild card slot, the answer is probably no. If on the other hand the question means would a good defensive catcher that would hit significantly better than either one we have now help the team win more games, the answer is yes. The question really is there anyone we can get that fits that description that won't cause problems with having to give up a beneficial piece of the team or make us exceed the next luxury tax plateau?

 

I am always for improving the team and if there is an incremental way to do that, then fine.

[notin]

The question is "Do we need an offensive catcher?". If the real question is do we need a different catcher to be competitive enough to win the pennant or at least get a wild card slot, the answer is probably no. If on the other hand the question means would a good defensive catcher that would hit significantly better than either one we have now help the team win more games, the answer is yes. The question really is there anyone we can get that fits that description that won't cause problems with having to give up a beneficial piece of the team or make us exceed the next luxury tax plateau?

 

I am always for improving the team and if there is an incremental way to do that, then fine.

 

Upgrading over any player would be a good thing. But the problem is the limited ability of the Sox to do so. There are plenty of defense-oriented catchers out there who could be available for the right price, but can the Sox afford it? Our prospect depth is almost non-existent. Realmuto, for example, is the best one who is likely to be moved. But the Marlins will only do so if they are overwhelmed. (Reportedly, they asked for both Vistor Robles and Juan Soto from Washington, two of the best prospects in the game.)

 

Sam Travis is only worth so much on the trade market.

[mvp 78]

https://www.overthemonster.com/2018/5/25/17393562/red-sox-catcher-depth-chart-christian-vazquez-sandy-leon

 

The Red Sox are 34-16. They have the most wins in baseball and the highest winning percentage in baseball and show no signs of slowing down as summer approaches. They have MVP candidates in Mookie Betts and J.D. Martinez and will get a former MVP back today when Dustin Pedroia makes his season debut. They have Chris Sale and Craig Kimbrel and a 25-man roster that largely makes your eyes pop out of your head in awe. They’re that good. Hell, they’re great.

 

There are exceptions, of course, and no one is more exceptionally mediocre on this team than its ragtag group of catchers. Christian Vazquez and Sandy León are uninspiring no matter what you think of backup ‘catcher’ Blake Swihart (who may be traded or designated for assignment by the end of the day to make room for Pedroia), but there are no truly good options among them. It is a relative weak spot, to be sure, but it’s -- obviously -- far from an Achilles heel. The Sox are successful despite their catchers, but the important part is that they’re successful.

 

This doesn’t seem to be a universal opinion, and it’s not just about the catchers. Be it the Swihart Wars, batting order woes, day-off shenanigans or bullpen choice worries, Red Sox analysis seems hellbent on making the perfect the enemy of the good. I understand that this is a feature of being a baseball fan, not a bug, and despite my constitutional resistance this sort of thinking, even I almost lost it on Wednesday after another Vazquez screwup.

 

To recap, Eduardo Nunez tried to score from second in a 1-1 game on a ball to the wall and found himself barreling toward home plate, behind which the on-deck batter Vazquez stood, arms raised, telling him not to slide. The problem was that the ball was indeed coming into the infield, and Nunez needed to slide, and didn’t, and was tagged out. It could easily have cost the Red Sox the game and Vazquez, the brainy catcher, seemed in a stupor about the whole thing, when in reality it was a play so easy Swihart would have made it. Probably.

 

Then the Red Sox won, I went to sleep happy, but in last night’s game León didn’t catch a ball, and Swihart Twitter was back on its ********.

 

Let’s be clear about something right now: Getting rid of Swihart will solve the first-order problem of shoehorning him into cherry-picked observations like this, but it won’t do much for the second-order problem of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Every team can be better, yes. Speaking of which, here’s a gentle reminder that Swihart, the savior that isn’t, has a .379 OPS, and that León actually can catch throws straight at him, which he does, as a catcher. Also there’s this: Red Sox catcher Sandy Leon is (10-for-28 .357 batting average) with a homer, double, three RBIs, six runs, four walks, seven strikeouts in May

Every time I think I’m willing to overlook this half-honest, half-crazy analysis in the name of Sox solidarity and friendship and not being a terrible scold online I start wondering if I’m actually the crazy one for not doing it. Baseball is obviously popular because it gives frustration-adjacent people a chance to be frustrated virtually ad infinitum. I used to be one of those people on a minute-to-minute, and I know depressive Yankees fans, for God’s sake. Success doesn’t kill it; by drawing attention to flaws, it probably exacerbates it. Since we’re all helpless in the face of the action, it’s tempting to shout out the answers to what looks like a puzzle when you’ve found them. I’m a crossword guy, dammit: I get that part.

 

But solving a baseball team is not like solving a crossword puzzle. Or, at least, solving this Red Sox team isn’t like solving one. It’s a jigsaw puzzle. We have the picture on the box to guide us, and in that picture, for this season, León and Vazquez are the catchers, Hanley is the de facto third hitter and players have regular, strangely scheduled, off days, just as they did under John Farrell. Like Farrell last season and Vazquez and León this year, they are what fits for this team and trying to smash other pieces together is a wasted effort. First off, it doesn’t work. Second, and more importantly, the picture doesn’t get much prettier than this. I’m gonna try my best to enjoy it. It probably won’t be good enough, but it really is beautiful.

[Bellhorn04]

https://www.overthemonster.com/2018/5/25/17393562/red-sox-catcher-depth-chart-christian-vazquez-sandy-leon

 

The Red Sox are 34-16. They have the most wins in baseball and the highest winning percentage in baseball and show no signs of slowing down as summer approaches. They have MVP candidates in Mookie Betts and J.D. Martinez and will get a former MVP back today when Dustin Pedroia makes his season debut. They have Chris Sale and Craig Kimbrel and a 25-man roster that largely makes your eyes pop out of your head in awe. They’re that good. Hell, they’re great.

 

There are exceptions, of course, and no one is more exceptionally mediocre on this team than its ragtag group of catchers. Christian Vazquez and Sandy León are uninspiring no matter what you think of backup ‘catcher’ Blake Swihart (who may be traded or designated for assignment by the end of the day to make room for Pedroia), but there are no truly good options among them. It is a relative weak spot, to be sure, but it’s -- obviously -- far from an Achilles heel. The Sox are successful despite their catchers, but the important part is that they’re successful.

 

This doesn’t seem to be a universal opinion, and it’s not just about the catchers. Be it the Swihart Wars, batting order woes, day-off shenanigans or bullpen choice worries, Red Sox analysis seems hellbent on making the perfect the enemy of the good. I understand that this is a feature of being a baseball fan, not a bug, and despite my constitutional resistance this sort of thinking, even I almost lost it on Wednesday after another Vazquez screwup.

 

To recap, Eduardo Nunez tried to score from second in a 1-1 game on a ball to the wall and found himself barreling toward home plate, behind which the on-deck batter Vazquez stood, arms raised, telling him not to slide. The problem was that the ball was indeed coming into the infield, and Nunez needed to slide, and didn’t, and was tagged out. It could easily have cost the Red Sox the game and Vazquez, the brainy catcher, seemed in a stupor about the whole thing, when in reality it was a play so easy Swihart would have made it. Probably.

 

Then the Red Sox won, I went to sleep happy, but in last night’s game León didn’t catch a ball, and Swihart Twitter was back on its ********.

 

Let’s be clear about something right now: Getting rid of Swihart will solve the first-order problem of shoehorning him into cherry-picked observations like this, but it won’t do much for the second-order problem of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Every team can be better, yes. Speaking of which, here’s a gentle reminder that Swihart, the savior that isn’t, has a .379 OPS, and that León actually can catch throws straight at him, which he does, as a catcher. Also there’s this: Red Sox catcher Sandy Leon is (10-for-28 .357 batting average) with a homer, double, three RBIs, six runs, four walks, seven strikeouts in May

Every time I think I’m willing to overlook this half-honest, half-crazy analysis in the name of Sox solidarity and friendship and not being a terrible scold online I start wondering if I’m actually the crazy one for not doing it. Baseball is obviously popular because it gives frustration-adjacent people a chance to be frustrated virtually ad infinitum. I used to be one of those people on a minute-to-minute, and I know depressive Yankees fans, for God’s sake. Success doesn’t kill it; by drawing attention to flaws, it probably exacerbates it. Since we’re all helpless in the face of the action, it’s tempting to shout out the answers to what looks like a puzzle when you’ve found them. I’m a crossword guy, dammit: I get that part.

 

But solving a baseball team is not like solving a crossword puzzle. Or, at least, solving this Red Sox team isn’t like solving one. It’s a jigsaw puzzle. We have the picture on the box to guide us, and in that picture, for this season, León and Vazquez are the catchers, Hanley is the de facto third hitter and players have regular, strangely scheduled, off days, just as they did under John Farrell. Like Farrell last season and Vazquez and León this year, they are what fits for this team and trying to smash other pieces together is a wasted effort. First off, it doesn’t work. Second, and more importantly, the picture doesn’t get much prettier than this. I’m gonna try my best to enjoy it. It probably won’t be good enough, but it really is beautiful.

 

This is freaking brilliantly well said.

[Jack Flap]

https://www.overthemonster.com/2018/5/25/17393562/red-sox-catcher-depth-chart-christian-vazquez-sandy-leon

 

The Red Sox are 34-16. They have the most wins in baseball and the highest winning percentage in baseball and show no signs of slowing down as summer approaches. They have MVP candidates in Mookie Betts and J.D. Martinez and will get a former MVP back today when Dustin Pedroia makes his season debut. They have Chris Sale and Craig Kimbrel and a 25-man roster that largely makes your eyes pop out of your head in awe. They’re that good. Hell, they’re great.

 

There are exceptions, of course, and no one is more exceptionally mediocre on this team than its ragtag group of catchers. Christian Vazquez and Sandy León are uninspiring no matter what you think of backup ‘catcher’ Blake Swihart (who may be traded or designated for assignment by the end of the day to make room for Pedroia), but there are no truly good options among them. It is a relative weak spot, to be sure, but it’s -- obviously -- far from an Achilles heel. The Sox are successful despite their catchers, but the important part is that they’re successful.

 

This doesn’t seem to be a universal opinion, and it’s not just about the catchers. Be it the Swihart Wars, batting order woes, day-off shenanigans or bullpen choice worries, Red Sox analysis seems hellbent on making the perfect the enemy of the good. I understand that this is a feature of being a baseball fan, not a bug, and despite my constitutional resistance this sort of thinking, even I almost lost it on Wednesday after another Vazquez screwup.

 

To recap, Eduardo Nunez tried to score from second in a 1-1 game on a ball to the wall and found himself barreling toward home plate, behind which the on-deck batter Vazquez stood, arms raised, telling him not to slide. The problem was that the ball was indeed coming into the infield, and Nunez needed to slide, and didn’t, and was tagged out. It could easily have cost the Red Sox the game and Vazquez, the brainy catcher, seemed in a stupor about the whole thing, when in reality it was a play so easy Swihart would have made it. Probably.

 

Then the Red Sox won, I went to sleep happy, but in last night’s game León didn’t catch a ball, and Swihart Twitter was back on its ********.

 

Let’s be clear about something right now: Getting rid of Swihart will solve the first-order problem of shoehorning him into cherry-picked observations like this, but it won’t do much for the second-order problem of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Every team can be better, yes. Speaking of which, here’s a gentle reminder that Swihart, the savior that isn’t, has a .379 OPS, and that León actually can catch throws straight at him, which he does, as a catcher. Also there’s this: Red Sox catcher Sandy Leon is (10-for-28 .357 batting average) with a homer, double, three RBIs, six runs, four walks, seven strikeouts in May

Every time I think I’m willing to overlook this half-honest, half-crazy analysis in the name of Sox solidarity and friendship and not being a terrible scold online I start wondering if I’m actually the crazy one for not doing it. Baseball is obviously popular because it gives frustration-adjacent people a chance to be frustrated virtually ad infinitum. I used to be one of those people on a minute-to-minute, and I know depressive Yankees fans, for God’s sake. Success doesn’t kill it; by drawing attention to flaws, it probably exacerbates it. Since we’re all helpless in the face of the action, it’s tempting to shout out the answers to what looks like a puzzle when you’ve found them. I’m a crossword guy, dammit: I get that part.

 

But solving a baseball team is not like solving a crossword puzzle. Or, at least, solving this Red Sox team isn’t like solving one. It’s a jigsaw puzzle. We have the picture on the box to guide us, and in that picture, for this season, León and Vazquez are the catchers, Hanley is the de facto third hitter and players have regular, strangely scheduled, off days, just as they did under John Farrell. Like Farrell last season and Vazquez and León this year, they are what fits for this team and trying to smash other pieces together is a wasted effort. First off, it doesn’t work. Second, and more importantly, the picture doesn’t get much prettier than this. I’m gonna try my best to enjoy it. It probably won’t be good enough, but it really is beautiful.

 

https://tinyurl.com/y8gmfexo

[Jack Flap]

Why would we need to be offended by the catcher?

 

I recall many people found A.J. Pierzynski offensive...but I don't think he's available.

[moonslav59]

Leon is one of our hottest hitters and has a history of having hot spells every few years. maybe this is one.

 

Vaz needs to get his act together on defense to keep playing. I'm not worried about his offense. (I doubt he stays under .625 the rest of the way.)

[notin]

Is the question "do we need an offensive catcher" or "do we want an offensive catcher"?

 

The Sox have the best record in the majors while getting nothing from the catcher, so it's a little hard to say they need one...

[Bellhorn04]

Is the question "do we need an offensive catcher" or "do we want an offensive catcher"?

 

The Sox have the best record in the majors while getting nothing from the catcher, so it's a little hard to say they need one...

 

Sure we have a good record but...

 

We need one because Betts and JD are going to cool off and can't carry us the whole season!

We need one to be the best we can be!

We need one to beat the Yankees for the division!

We need one to win the World Series!

 

(Some might say those things. Not me.)

[Kimmi]

Is the question "do we need an offensive catcher" or "do we want an offensive catcher"?

 

The Sox have the best record in the majors while getting nothing from the catcher, so it's a little hard to say they need one...

 

The answer to either question for me is "no".

[Natick to NC]

Leon is one of our hottest hitters and has a history of having hot spells every few years. maybe this is one.

 

Vaz needs to get his act together on defense to keep playing. I'm not worried about his offense. (I doubt he stays under .625 the rest of the way.)

.....sigh .....they both suck .

[Natick to NC]

Realmutto is the guy we need to get .

[Slasher9]

Is there a team whose entire starting 9 consists of +oWar players?

 

We are fine with sandy and vaz as our catchers.

Even with vaz’s defenive lapses under the Cora regime.

[Bellhorn04]

.....sigh .....they both suck .

 

Can't have All-Stars at every position, man. It gets a tad expensive, for one thing.