The 2018 Bullpen Season Thread

[Kimmi]

Bogey is good dont get me wrong, but he ain't getting 25 Million a year from no one. And I can't see kimbrel getting any more than 14-15. If they also go long years they can get betts and sale for lower aav

 

I would prefer to go higher AAV and shorter years.

[Kimmi]

I think the question is what does cliff mean - and I think that's where my head is at. If we are thinking CLIFF as in turning into the 2018 Kansas City Royals - that ain't happening, and the franchise won't let that happen. (it might, but they will go into the season trying to avoid that) If we think of it as the Yankees CLIFF, where things bottomed out at 84 wins, and you at least had 3-4 months of a credible playoff chase - THAT is what I'd expect as a worst case.

 

To me, a cliff means not having a realistic shot at the postseason as you enter the season.

[Kimmi]

He definitely did what Ilitch wanted, but he is coming into Boston fresh off that experience doing the exact same thing he did there. He was brought in to win now and he did that. But he's left a farm in shambles and a cliff looming. The question becomes, does he get enough cash to keep the band together, or will he be forced to pick and choose? If he is forced to pick and choose, he might burn it down to rebuild it rather than stay in mediocrity while the Yankees rise meteorically

 

LOL Good one Jacko.

[Kimmi]

Best way to avoid it will be to retain the Killer Bs and not retain Sale and Kimbrel...

 

As much as I'd like to keep Sale, I have to agree with you.

 

OTOH, I'm not giving any of the Killer Bs an insane contract either.

[Kimmi]

Besides, Kimbrel is going to stop being dominant at some point. And it will happen sometime during his next contract...

 

Yup.

[sk7326]

To me, a cliff means not having a realistic shot at the postseason as you enter the season.

 

that ain't happening.

[sk7326]

And they also valued Jackie Bradley’s 255 plate appearances from 2015 more than all the ones that came before it, right?

 

possibly. young players get better all the time. these are hard decisions - but someone has to make them.

[sk7326]

We throw around the “blocked prospect” thing too quickly. Really, who was blocking Margot on Boston? Benintendi, from a level behind? Bradley? Certainly, and while I love Bradley, he’s not irreplaceable. Margot hasn’t hit like Bradley has yet, but then JBJ certainly required patience for that to happen.

 

And I’ve seen people call Javier Guerra and Logan Allen “blocked prospects.” How can an A-ball player be blocked?

 

But really, the bottom line is we gave up a lot of prospects and too often I see fans justifying it with “but how many are starters?” Or “how many turned out to be any good?” Like we weeded out the failures here.

 

The truth is, we probably gave up several good players. Not sure why anyone wants to admit that. Why are people so afraid to say we gave up good prospects? Or we might have given up good prospects?

 

i look at it realistically - teams self scout all the time. large market teams are prone to hold on to their stars and look at everybody else a bit more flexibly. the red sox have traded a lot of kids, but have aimed high when doing so. i justify the deal on two fronts - they traded guys they did not identify as their star tier, and they traded them for uncontroversially high quality pieces. The Pomeranz deal was a notable exception, though that goes with the high variability that comes with low minor pitching.

[jacksonianmarch]

i look at it realistically - teams self scout all the time. large market teams are prone to hold on to their stars and look at everybody else a bit more flexibly. the red sox have traded a lot of kids, but have aimed high when doing so. i justify the deal on two fronts - they traded guys they did not identify as their star tier, and they traded them for uncontroversially high quality pieces. The Pomeranz deal was a notable exception, though that goes with the high variability that comes with low minor pitching.

 

what about the Thornburg deal?

[sk7326]

what about the Thornburg deal?

 

That one I did not like - I think I've forgotten that happened. Shaw certainly blossomed in a way which I did not anticipate - and anytime a traded guy goes under the knife immediately, you worry about due diligence. By contrast the Carson Smith deal struck me as a good deal which didn't work.

[moonslav59]

That one I did not like - I think I've forgotten that happened. Shaw certainly blossomed in a way which I did not anticipate - and anytime a traded guy goes under the knife immediately, you worry about due diligence. By contrast the Carson Smith deal struck me as a good deal which didn't work.

 

Were Thornburg and/or Smith "uncontroversially high quality pieces?"

 

[Nick]

We decided Shaw was not the long term solution at 3B when we traded him.

[moonslav59]

We decided Shaw was not the long term solution at 3B when we traded him.

 

We also gave up Dubon.

[Station 13]

We decided Shaw was not the long term solution at 3B when we traded him.

 

What about Shaw at 1B?

 

Did they not see a glaring hole there?

[Bellhorn04]

As much as I'd like to keep Sale, I have to agree with you.

 

OTOH, I'm not giving any of the Killer Bs an insane contract either.

 

Kimmi, you are a coupon clippin' penny pincher.

[cp176]

All teams will face similar problems as we move into the future. Worrying and over thinking about it, would tend to take some of the shine off of what we have done and what it looks as though we are going to do. I'm sure that it is fun for all of you to debate. What I tend to focus in on is what the franchise has done since John Henry and Company took control. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think for one minute that at a certain time based on what you assume is going to happen financially with the franchise and ML baseball in general, that by the year 2020 this team out of nowhere becomes a bottom feeder. That in my opinion is not very likely to happen regardless of all of all of the gloomy predictions made here.

[Bellhorn04]

What about Shaw at 1B?

 

Did they not see a glaring hole there?

 

2016 stats

 

Hanley Ramirez 866 OPS 30 HR 111 RBI

Travis Shaw 726 OPS 16 HR 71 RBI

 

Are you saying that at the end of 2016 it was obvious we had a glaring hole at 1B and that Shaw was the guy to fill it?

[OH FOY]

At 22.750 million I expect these numbers. Don't you? It was the next year at 22.750 that was not good. Shaw had some good numbers at a much cheaper price in 2017.

Best move this team did this year was get rid of that dead weight. Soon as he was gone, this team took off. Good Job, Mr. Cora.

Edited September 18, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

At 22.750 million I expect these numbers. Don't you?

 

Yes, but the point was about trading Shaw when we had a 'glaring hole' at 1B.

[OH FOY]

When Hanley was here he was a hole hahahaha Different kind what I'm thinking.....it starts with a "A". Great move getting rid of that loser.

[Slasher9]

I would prefer to go higher AAV and shorter years.

 

his agent is Satan.

no way he does that.

[Slasher9]

When Hanley was here he was a hole hahahaha Different kind what I'm thinking.....it starts with a "A". Great move getting rid of that loser.

 

give me one reason Hanley Ramirez is considered an ******* and/or loser?

[OH FOY]

He's one 1 WS at what 21 years old, been on good teams since, and never went back. Did he carry the Red Sox like Ortiz? For the big money you paid him.

[OH FOY]

How come he is so good, or a great Teammate He isn't resigned at Vet Minimum, it's a steal. You tell me. Isn't JD getting paid less then him or close, how did that work out. Edited September 18, 2018 by OH FOY!

[moonslav59]

What about Shaw at 1B?

 

Did they not see a glaring hole there?

 

It was obvious we did not feel Shaw was going to do anywhere near as well as he did after the trade. If you look at his history, he had had about 4 bad half seasons to 4 good ones in his previous 4 seasons in minor league ball. He was a pretty good defender at 1B and seemed to hold his own at 3B pretty well.

 

I actually chose Shaw as my sleeper prospect long, long ago, but I had since given up on him as anything more than a role player.

 

I actually liked the Thornburg trade, because I was super high on Thornburg. The guy had great numbers vs lefties and looked to have closer stuff.

 

At the time, I hated giving up Dubon more than Shaw.

[moonslav59]

How come he is so good, or a great Teammate He isn't resigned at Vet Minimum, it's a steal. You tell me. Isn't JD getting paid less then him or close, how did that work out.

 

That's different from calling him an A-Hole.

[OH FOY]

That's my feeling about him. Sorry you don't like it. All I know he was released on May 30, since that time, this team has played team baseball and looks different.

They had a great poll on BSJ (Boston Sports Journal) on Hanley. Wish I could post it.

Edited September 18, 2018 by OH FOY!

[moonslav59]

That's my feeling about him. Sorry you don't like it. All I know he was released on May 30, since that time, this team has played team baseball and looks different.

They had a great poll on BSJ (Boston Sports Journal) on Hanley. Wish I could post it.

 

So, any player that only wins one ring and doesn't get signed is an A-Hole?

 

The question was, name one thing that makes him an A-Hole, and you went off on how much he sucks as a player, which I don't disagree with.

[OH FOY]

He went to the Dodgers on a big Trade was to suppose to be the savior there too, did nothing. Dodgers glad to get rid of him.

[notin]

He went to the Dodgers on a big Trade was to suppose to be the savior there too, did nothing. Dodgers glad to get rid of him.

 

He did have a top ten MVP finish for the Dodgers in a year he barely played half a season. Overall for that team, he had an OPS+ of 144, which is higher than Mookie Betts has for his career in Boston.

 

I never heard the Dodgers were happy to see him go, but a big reason he left was he was simply getting too expensive for them and he was no longer the durable bastion of health to earn that pay. An AL team, like Boston, at least had the option of playing him at DH...