The 2018 Bullpen Season Thread

[notin]

Assuming Thornburg comes up sometime soon, who leaves? Is it Hembree or Johnson or another candidate? We really do need to strengthen the BP as evidenced by the kind of meltdown we are having against the Yankees. Getting beat is one thing but doing it like Hembree did it is hard to forgive.

 

Velasquez is the only pitcher with options remaining, making him a candidate.

 

Hembree is making a case for himself, however...

[illinoisredsox]

If Kimbrel can't pitch in the 8th or with men on base it kind of diminishes his greatness a wee bit, doesn't it? Rivera never seemed to have much trouble with those situations.

 

Rivera had issues with it too. He had some success, but he failed several times as well. It's the nature of the game.

 

A few examples in some big moments:

 

2001 World Series, Game 7, entered in the 8th, 3 outs allowing one single. In the 9th (facing 7-8-9 in the Diamondbacks order) allowed 2 runs and Arizona won the Series on a walk-off single.

 

2004 ALCS, Game 4, entered in the 8th, 3 outs allowing one single. We all know what happened in the 9th

 

2004 ALCS, Game 5, entered in the 8th with a guy on 3rd: Varitek hit a Sac Fly to tie it

[moonslav59]

Same, but he's been a bit shaky of late.

 

That doesn't worry me. All players look shaky for a few days here and there. He's been about as consistent as can be over the years.

 

I worry about the rest of our pen, especially in big situations. I worry about our 3B defense. I worry about of CF offense. I worry a little about our catcher offense. I worry about Price's tingles and Smith's long return from injury.

 

Those are my biggest worries right now, and I don't really think about them too often

[moonslav59]

Rivera had issues with it too. He had some success, but he failed several times as well. It's the nature of the game.

 

A few examples in some big moments:

 

2001 World Series, Game 7, entered in the 8th, 3 outs allowing one single. In the 9th (facing 7-8-9 in the Diamondbacks order) allowed 2 runs and Arizona won the Series on a walk-off single.

 

2004 ALCS, Game 4, entered in the 8th, 3 outs allowing one single. We all know what happened in the 9th

 

2004 ALCS, Game 5, entered in the 8th with a guy on 3rd: Varitek hit a Sac Fly to tie it

 

Of all the times he pitched in bid games, that's not bad. (I know there are more than these listed.)

[notin]

Rivera had issues with it too. He had some success, but he failed several times as well. It's the nature of the game.

 

A few examples in some big moments:

 

2001 World Series, Game 7, entered in the 8th, 3 outs allowing one single. In the 9th (facing 7-8-9 in the Diamondbacks order) allowed 2 runs and Arizona won the Series on a walk-off single.

 

 

I believe this was his only appearance in a seventh game of a World Series.

[Bellhorn04]

2004 ALCS, Game 5, entered in the 8th with a guy on 3rd: Varitek hit a Sac Fly to tie it

 

I don't really consider giving up a sac fly with no outs as a failure. He got tagged with a blown save for it, which points out how silly the stat is.

[jung]

Did anybody verify or hear what I thought I heard last night that being that Cora is committed now to saves only for Kimbrel and a max of 4 out saves at the end. So that would be last out of the 8th and then the 9th inning.

[illinoisredsox]

I don't really consider giving up a sac fly with no outs as a failure. He got tagged with a blown save for it, which points out how silly the stat is.

 

Oh, I don't disagree. It was a virtually impossible situation and it's not like Varitek tore the cover off the ball. But, by the standards some seem to set here, he blew it.

 

I don't think Kimbrel thinks he can get a 5-6 out save. I don't think Rivera ever thought that he couldn't do it. It didn't always happen, but mentally, he really always thought he could.

[mvp 78]

DFA Hembree. Call up Beeks. http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=656222#/gamelogs/R/pitching/2018/MINORS

[illinoisredsox]

DFA Hembree. Call up Beeks. http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=656222#/gamelogs/R/pitching/2018/MINORS

 

Why would you bring up a starter to replace a reliever? If they envision him as a starter (as they should right now), then that's where he stays.

[cp176]

When starters now who can go 6 solid innings are pretty special, does that change perspectives about how bullpens should be put together. Used to be a lot of pretty good aging starters became potential bullpen arms. Guys who just could not get it done as starters were converted to relief pitchers. It seems now that with 5 man rotations and pitchers being limited to right around 100 pitches somewhat changes the landscape. I love Kimbrel but if he is only going to be used in the ninth, is the whole concept of having a closer a little overrated? Is there too much specialization? How about a couple of really good arms out there who could give you 2 or maybe even 3 solid innings every 4th day lets say. (maybe even every 3rd day). For the record though, it still is really hard for me to buy into the theory that Kimbrel has a problem coming in to the 8th and getting 4 or 5 outs. He is one of the best relief pitchers who has ever played. Most guys like him don't have any problems approaching any situation from a mental perspective. Are we just dealing with too much specialization these days?

[notin]

Oh, I don't disagree. It was a virtually impossible situation and it's not like Varitek tore the cover off the ball. But, by the standards some seem to set here, he blew it.

I don't think Kimbrel thinks he can get a 5-6 out save. I don't think Rivera ever thought that he couldn't do it. It didn't always happen, but mentally, he really always thought he could.

 

I bet Kimbrel thinks he is capable of getting a 12 out save. Talent is certainly a big part of it, but you don't get as far as Kimbrel if you have easily shakable confidence.

 

I know he has 0 6 out saves in his career. But how many pitchers have any number of 5 out saves? That Kimbrel has zero 5-out saves is probably more a statement about bullpen specialization and opportunities than it is about Kimbrel...

[mvp 78]

Why would you bring up a starter to replace a reliever? If they envision him as a starter (as they should right now), then that's where he stays.

 

I envision him as a starter. I've heard that the Sox FO does not tho.

 

Even so, it wouldn't be the first starter to go to long relief and become a starter later on.

[cp176]

Why would you bring up a starter to replace a reliever? If they envision him as a starter (as they should right now), then that's where he stays.

 

 

Is another starting pitcher who might give you 5 possibly 6 innings even as important as a relief pitcher who can give you 2 or 3 a little more often? I wonder how long it will be before a lot of pretty good starters start throwing in relief? There are starting pitchers out there now who pitch just about as much as a good quality middle reliever. Is the whole concept of starters and closers over rated?

[notin]

Is another starting pitcher who might give you 5 possibly 6 innings even as important as a relief pitcher who can give you 2 or 3 a little more often? I wonder how long it will be before a lot of pretty good starters start throwing in relief? There are starting pitchers out there now who pitch just about as much as a good quality middle reliever. Is the whole concept of starters and closers over rated?

 

It appears to be drifting that way.

 

A lot was made of the declining salaries this past off-season for the available free agents. But the one position that actually made out quite well was relief pitcher.

 

With starters going an average of about 5.1 IP/start, teams are more and more realizing bullpens are not just a roster spot you dump off the guy who couldn't cut it in the rotation. Bullpens are responsible for nearly 4IP every game on average.

 

Probably why you never hear the expression "banished to the bullpen" anymore. Maybe in a couple of years, we will start seeing pitchers who couldn't cut it in the bullpen as being "banished to the rotation."

 

OK, maybe not...

[Bellhorn04]

I bet Kimbrel thinks he is capable of getting a 12 out save. Talent is certainly a big part of it, but you don't get as far as Kimbrel if you have easily shakable confidence.

 

I know he has 0 6 out saves in his career. But how many pitchers have any number of 5 out saves?

 

Not many in the last 20 years or so, I'd guess.

 

Rivera had piles of them when you include the postseason.

 

Andrew Miller has had a lot of 5 out holds, I think, since joining Cleveland.

[mvp 78]

Is another starting pitcher who might give you 5 possibly 6 innings even as important as a relief pitcher who can give you 2 or 3 a little more often? I wonder how long it will be before a lot of pretty good starters start throwing in relief? There are starting pitchers out there now who pitch just about as much as a good quality middle reliever. Is the whole concept of starters and closers over rated?

 

Also, Beeks is a high k/low bb guy who throws a lot of pitches. I'm not sure he'd go 6 innings consistently in MLB. Maybe relief is the best option for him? IDK.

[illinoisredsox]

I envision him as a starter. I've heard that the Sox FO does not tho.

 

Even so, it wouldn't be the first starter to go to long relief and become a starter later on.

 

Could be that is how they see him,. H did have 10 relief appearances in the fall league in 2016 but 84 of his 86 minor league games have been as a starter (he had two relief games in the Gulf Coast League right after he signed, but the way thing work in that league are not normal). I'm not sure all of a sudden putting him in a relief role is a great idea, especially with Thornburg probably back in a couple weeks.

 

DFAing Hembree is all well and good, but at that point, just bring back Walden or Poyner. Why mess at all with Beeks' development?

[illinoisredsox]

Not many in the last 20 years or so, I'd guess.

 

Rivera had piles of them when you include the postseason.

 

Andrew Miller has had a lot of 5 out holds, I think, since joining Cleveland.

 

Sox had one this year by Marcus Walden. But it wasn't a pressure packed save when he pitched the last 3 innings of a 7 run Red Sox win.

 

Kimbrel tends to lose effectiveness after 25 or so pitches. That makes it tough for him to get multi-inning saves, especially since he tends to go to multi-ball/multi-strike counts on a lot of hitters.

 

I wrote this the other day, but I'll repeat it here: last season during some telecast, the subject of muti-inning relief appearances came up. The color guy, a pitcher, so probably Hersheiser or Kaat, said that today's relievers are not used to warming up, throwing an inning (or part of one), sitting down for 10 minutes and then going back out there. Starters do it all the time. Nowadays, kids are converted to relievers early on in the minors and are on pitch counts, so they never get used to that cycle. Kelly has been pretty good at multi-inning appearances. Miller as well. It's no coincidence that both of them were starters for most of their professional careers.

[mvp 78]

Could be that is how they see him,. H did have 10 relief appearances in the fall league in 2016 but 84 of his 86 minor league games have been as a starter (he had two relief games in the Gulf Coast League right after he signed, but the way thing work in that league are not normal). I'm not sure all of a sudden putting him in a relief role is a great idea, especially with Thornburg probably back in a couple weeks.

 

DFAing Hembree is all well and good, but at that point, just bring back Walden or Poyner. Why mess at all with Beeks' development?

 

I just think Beeks is a better pitcher than Walden or Poyner. I like Poyner, but Walden. Walden doesn't do anything for me.

[cp176]

Sox had one this year by Marcus Walden. But it wasn't a pressure packed save when he pitched the last 3 innings of a 7 run Red Sox win.

 

Kimbrel tends to lose effectiveness after 25 or so pitches. That makes it tough for him to get multi-inning saves, especially since he tends to go to multi-ball/multi-strike counts on a lot of hitters.

 

I wrote this the other day, but I'll repeat it here: last season during some telecast, the subject of muti-inning relief appearances came up. The color guy, a pitcher, so probably Hersheiser or Kaat, said that today's relievers are not used to warming up, throwing an inning (or part of one), sitting down for 10 minutes and then going back out there. Starters do it all the time. Nowadays, kids are converted to relievers early on in the minors and are on pitch counts, so they never get used to that cycle. Kelly has been pretty good at multi-inning appearances. Miller as well. It's no coincidence that both of them were starters for most of their professional careers.

 

I think that much of what you say here probably is an accurate way to look at things. I'm just wondering what the next change with respect to pitching will be. As "starters" are held to pitch counts and really are pitching fewer innings, doesn't it kind of make common sense that having one guy to pitch the 7th inning, one for the 8th, and a closer isn't where the trend is heading. It brings into play a lot of questions for me. I think that if the current trend continues more and more teams are going to be looking for very good pitchers who can throw multiple innings in relief - not just the old mop up duty.

[cp176]

It appears to be drifting that way.

 

A lot was made of the declining salaries this past off-season for the available free agents. But the one position that actually made out quite well was relief pitcher.

 

With starters going an average of about 5.1 IP/start, teams are more and more realizing bullpens are not just a roster spot you dump off the guy who couldn't cut it in the rotation. Bullpens are responsible for nearly 4IP every game on average.

 

Probably why you never hear the expression "banished to the bullpen" anymore. Maybe in a couple of years, we will start seeing pitchers who couldn't cut it in the bullpen as being "banished to the rotation."

 

OK, maybe not...

 

An average of just 5.1 innings per start just amazes me. If that trend continues, Kind of looks like a team could use a couple of so called starting pitchers per game and have no real need for a 9th inning only closer. Maybe it is the labelling thing that is being oversold but there looks like a trend is really developing.

[MADSTORK]

Hembree in NY priceless!

[Bellhorn04]

Hembree in NY priceless!

 

Now there's a nice timely post.

 

Your Yankees pen has had its issues too.

[jung]

There is some logic to starters that did not cut it as starters becoming relief pitchers. What usually cuts guys out of rotations is the inability to get through a batting order more than one time. Well if you can't get through the order more than once without getting tagged, doesn't that suggest that you have a career as a relief pitcher?

 

So its not illogical. Honestly I don't know how much thought we put into the 2018 pen though. It just looks like the 2017 pen to me with various ailing bodies and rehab guys being rotated in. I very much hope that Smith can put another 1 inning stint like the one he had last night in Toronto together. That will immediately move some of these other stiffs (yes stiffs, there I said it) into a more appropriate spot in the pen sequencing.

[Bellhorn04]

So its not illogical. Honestly I don't know how much thought we put into the 2018 pen though. It just looks like the 2017 pen to me with various ailing bodies and rehab guys being rotated in. I very much hope that Smith can put another 1 inning stint like the one he had last night in Toronto together. That will immediately move some of these other stiffs (yes stiffs, there I said it) into a more appropriate spot in the pen sequencing.

 

No changes to the pen because of budgetary restrictions and hopes that the already-heavily-invested-in Smith and Thornburg would be major contributors.

[jung]

No changes to the pen because of budgetary restrictions and hopes that the already-heavily-invested-in Smith and Thornburg would be major contributors.

 

Yes I agree with that. But that also suggests more thought should have been put into those two investments. Smith was close to given away to us and we should have considered that. Thornburg has not pitched a day for us yet...well maybe a day but not more.

[Maxbialystock]

Sox had one this year by Marcus Walden. But it wasn't a pressure packed save when he pitched the last 3 innings of a 7 run Red Sox win.

 

Kimbrel tends to lose effectiveness after 25 or so pitches. That makes it tough for him to get multi-inning saves, especially since he tends to go to multi-ball/multi-strike counts on a lot of hitters.

 

I wrote this the other day, but I'll repeat it here: last season during some telecast, the subject of muti-inning relief appearances came up. The color guy, a pitcher, so probably Hersheiser or Kaat, said that today's relievers are not used to warming up, throwing an inning (or part of one), sitting down for 10 minutes and then going back out there. Starters do it all the time. Nowadays, kids are converted to relievers early on in the minors and are on pitch counts, so they never get used to that cycle. Kelly has been pretty good at multi-inning appearances. Miller as well. It's no coincidence that both of them were starters for most of their professional careers.

 

Some pretty good stuff in there. Thanks, illinoisredsox.

[Maxbialystock]

About last night and the 4-2 loss in 12 innings to the Jays. I would not have sent out Sale to pitch the 9th and end up throwing 116 pitches even though he did a good job.

 

And here's my cockamamie theory on why not. The lesser reason is the 116 pitches. The major reason is that I would have sent Johnson in to do what Johnson does best--blow it. Why? Because our guys were off last night. Mookie struck out twice and he has struck out just 17 times in 34 games this year and twice in the eight games before last night. One of our three runs was the result of a swung on wild pitch third strike that allowed the hitter Leon to get all the way to 3b and someone else to score. Our last run scored was in the 4th inning.

 

If on the other hand, Johnson came thru, I would have kept him in the game for at least 60 pitches and maybe more to save the rest of the bullpen.

[SoxHop]

About last night and the 4-2 loss in 12 innings to the Jays. I would not have sent out Sale to pitch the 9th and end up throwing 116 pitches even though he did a good job.

 

And here's my cockamamie theory on why not. The lesser reason is the 116 pitches. The major reason is that I would have sent Johnson in to do what Johnson does best--blow it. Why? Because our guys were off last night. Mookie struck out twice and he has struck out just 17 times in 34 games this year and twice in the eight games before last night. One of our three runs was the result of a swung on wild pitch third strike that allowed the hitter Leon to get all the way to 3b and someone else to score. Our last run scored was in the 4th inning.

 

If on the other hand, Johnson came thru, I would have kept him in the game for at least 60 pitches and maybe more to save the rest of the bullpen.

 

ahhh..... the good old "put us out of our misery" game plan, a plan advised to be used in certain circumstances by Sun Tze and written extensively about in his book "The Art of War".