The Alex Cora Managerial Decision Thread

[Spudboy]

I just about never bitch about in game calls, but that was horrible.

 

Yeah the Noob done f***ed up.

[oldtimer]

I'm through defending Cora. Tonight was the dumbest job of managing I can remember. Wright showed how bad he was in the first inning. Cora has an extra pitcher right now, so there should be no hesitation on getting someone warm in the 2d inning, and Cora let it ride until the 4th. Stupid, stupid, stupid. This is especially galling because the Sox actually took the lead back in the 1st, so this game was winnable. Going into the 4th it was still winnable and Cora refused to warm anyone up until it was too late.

 

Cora was willing to lose the game for whatever reason, but the players thought differently about it. Good for them, bad for Cora.

[mvp 78]

Can’t believe Cora made Wright hang those two knuckleballs like that!

[Maxbialystock]

Can’t believe Cora made Wright hang those two knuckleballs like that!

 

A perfectly fair comment. However, those weren't the only hanging knuckleballs Wright threw Friday night, and that's my issue with leaving him in.

 

Apropos of nothing, I've been watching the Phillies--NYY game, and in the bottom of the 6th inning the Yankees starter, who had been fantastic, gave up a single and a walk and a soft grounder to 2b that advanced both runners--to 2b and 3b with 1 out and the score 2-0 with the Yankees on top.

 

NYY Yankees manager immediately brings in Robertson, who gets a K and a grounder to 2b to end the threat. Robertson is 33 and has a fantastic knuckle curve that breaks sharply down and a 95 mph fast ball. I would use him in the 8th in a heart beat, but the NYY got Betances, et all for the the 8th and later.

 

I like our bullpen. I think they are good, but I don't think they are as good or as deep as the Yankees bullpen. And bullpens can make the manager's job oh so much easier.

[Maxbialystock]

Gray gets 2 outs in the 7th--the 2d on three straight cut fastballs (93mph) for a K--but also give up a run, and Boone calls for a new arm with a man on 1b. Wow.

 

Remember how Giradi had a rep for overusing his bullpen? Well Boone appears to think the same way.

 

Oh, and Betances struck out the first batter on 4 pitches, easy-peasy.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[mvp 78]

A perfectly fair comment. However, those weren't the only hanging knuckleballs Wright threw Friday night, and that's my issue with leaving him in.

 

I agree that it wasn't a great decision by Cora. I just find it interesting that there is much more hand wringing about Cora than about how poorly Wright pitched. Sometimes, Wright just turns into a pumpkin and I'm not convinced that's a guy I want in my rotation.

[mvp 78]

Gray gets 2 outs in the 7th--the 2d on three straight cut fastballs (93mph) for a K--but also give up a run, and Boone calls for a new arm with a man on 1b. Wow.

 

Remember how Giradi had a rep for overusing his bullpen? Well Boone appears to think the same way.

 

Oh, and Betances struck out the first batter on 4 pitches, easy-peasy.

 

Then Betances struck out on 3 pitches with a helmet that didn't really fit him.

[notin]

Cora was willing to lose the game for whatever reason, but the players thought differently about it. Good for them, bad for Cora.

 

It may have been a situation where Cora basically decided not to burn out he bullpen chasing a win. In this case, it worked out. Usually it doesn't.

 

But if a manager decides to sacrifice one game to make the next 2 or 3 a little easier, that isn't always a bad idea...

[Slasher9]

I agree that it wasn't a great decision by Cora. I just find it interesting that there is much more hand wringing about Cora than about how poorly Wright pitched.

 

it didnt make my list of managerial miscues.

[notin]

I agree that it wasn't a great decision by Cora. I just find it interesting that there is much more hand wringing about Cora than about how poorly Wright pitched. Sometimes, Wright just turns into a pumpkin and I'm not convinced that's a guy I want in my rotation.

 

When they acquired him, I figured he would be useless. He has actually been a pleasant surprise the past few seasons. Plenty of other more traditional pitchers also turn into pumpkins at times, but with non-knuckleballers, that does seem to be more acceptable...

[Maxbialystock]

I agree that it wasn't a great decision by Cora. I just find it interesting that there is much more hand wringing about Cora than about how poorly Wright pitched. Sometimes, Wright just turns into a pumpkin and I'm not convinced that's a guy I want in my rotation.

 

Wright was fantastic this season and in 3 starts--1 run in 20.2 innings--before this one. No other Sox starter has come close to that in three consecutive starts. So moonslav was right to insist this guy can help. He still can if that knuckler comes back because it is better than any pitch Sale or Price or ERod or Porcello has. It makes Wright our ace when it is working because it allows Wright to have an incredibly low ERA and to pitch a lot of innings in every start.

 

The problem with the knuckle ball, however, is that it is very hittable when it doesn't jump. Up until last Friday, that only happened infrequently to Wright's knuckler. The bigger risk was that it wouldn't be a strike or that Vazquez couldn't catch it, but those risk proved to be minor.

 

Back to that 1 run in the previous 20.2 innings Wright had pitched. That disastrous 1st inning with 4 runs and 2 dingers was a huge red flag that something was very wrong with the erstwhile reliable knuckler. Two more runs in the 2d inning were only confirmatory. Somehow Wright got thru the 3d clean, but Cora should have been doubly alert going into the 4th: his starter had already given up 6 earned runs; his lineup had scored 5 runs and the game was still very winnable. Thus to me his inaction until Wright had given up 10 runs was a huge mistake for which there is no justification. He had an extra reliever in the bullpen and two long relievers. Oh, and 3 days later, Monday, was going to be an rest day for the entire team.

[mvp 78]

When they acquired him, I figured he would be useless. He has actually been a pleasant surprise the past few seasons. Plenty of other more traditional pitchers also turn into pumpkins at times, but with non-knuckleballers, that does seem to be more acceptable...

 

No, other pitchers don't tend to implode the way Steven Wright does. It's just the nature of the knuckleball. Other guys can at least push through with other pitches. If the knuckball is flat, Wright is a low A pitcher.

[Emp9]

May 27, Sale pitched 4.1 innings & gave up 6 ER.

 

May 3, Price pitched 3.2 and gave up 7 ER.

 

s*** happens. I wouldn’t be too quick to insist that one shitshow performance should define a guy’s season.

 

I think there must be some extreme cherry-picking comfirmation bias when it comes to a knuckleballer it seems.

[mvp 78]

Wright's 2016:

 

April - June 24th: 2.01 ERA, 3.33 FIP, 64 GS, 246 BABIP

 

June 24th - September: 5.55 ERA, 4.50 FIP, 45 GS, 328 BABIP

 

He has stretches of being good and stretches of being s*****. Not sure you can expect anything else from him.

[notin]

Wright's 2016:

 

April - June 24th: 2.01 ERA, 3.33 FIP, 64 GS, 246 BABIP

 

June 24th - September: 5.55 ERA, 4.50 FIP, 45 GS, 328 BABIP

 

He has stretches of being good and stretches of being s*****. Not sure you can expect anything else from him.

 

And from a fifth/sixth starter, isn't that acceptable?

[mvp 78]

And from a fifth/sixth starter, isn't that acceptable?

 

The June - September numbers aren't acceptable to me.

[Kimmi]

It may have been a situation where Cora basically decided not to burn out he bullpen chasing a win. In this case, it worked out. Usually it doesn't.

 

But if a manager decides to sacrifice one game to make the next 2 or 3 a little easier, that isn't always a bad idea...

 

A manager cannot go all out to try to win every game at any cost. Maybe he can do that in September, but not in June. I disagreed with Cora's decision to leave Wright in, but at the same time, I think his decision to do so is defensible, as I think most manager's decisions are.

[illinoisredsox]

A manager cannot go all out to try to win every game at any cost. Maybe he can do that in September, but not in June. I disagreed with Cora's decision to leave Wright in, but at the same time, I think his decision to do so is defensible, as I think most manager's decisions are.

 

Also have to remember ERod was next up in the rotation. While overall he has been pretty good this season, a manager still has to figure he’s going to need at least 3 pen innings in any Rodriguez start. Could have been part of Cora’s thinking.

[Kimmi]

Also have to remember ERod was next up in the rotation. While overall he has been pretty good this season, a manager still has to figure he’s going to need at least 3 pen innings in any Rodriguez start. Could have been part of Cora’s thinking.

 

Good point. Maybe Cora takes Wright out of the game sooner if Sale or Porcello were pitching the next day.

[moonslav59]

May 27, Sale pitched 4.1 innings & gave up 6 ER.

 

May 3, Price pitched 3.2 and gave up 7 ER.

 

s*** happens. I wouldn’t be too quick to insist that one shitshow performance should define a guy’s season.

 

I think there must be some extreme cherry-picking comfirmation bias when it comes to a knuckleballer it seems.

 

I totally agree.

 

No matter what type of pitcher you are, if you ain't got it- you ain't got it, and things look bad.

 

I will say, it does seem like Knucklers are left in longer when they ain't got it.

 

Wake was hung out to dry many times.

 

[Maxbialystock]

A manager cannot go all out to try to win every game at any cost. Maybe he can do that in September, but not in June. I disagreed with Cora's decision to leave Wright in, but at the same time, I think his decision to do so is defensible, as I think most manager's decisions are.

 

Very sensible. But we already know that stuff can happen in any game to cause the starter to leave early, only one of which is ineffectiveness. That's why some managers--like Farrell and Francona--normally use the "7-run rule" to gauge when to pull a starter. It seems a lot, but it saves the bullpen.

 

But in this instance, it wasn't 7, but 10 runs.

 

In this instance Cora had 8 relievers, not the usual 7, and 2 of them are experienced long relievers who in fact started earlier in the season.

 

In this instance the game was winnable because, before those 4 runs in the 4th inning, the score was 6-5 Seattle.

 

In this instance leaving Wright in did not save anything. The bullpen still had to pitch 5.2 innings.

 

In this instance, they also had to pitch 5 innings the next night when ERod was pulled.

 

But in this instance there was an off day yesterday which helped the bullpen recover and which Cora knew about.

 

I'm very pro-Cora and have been all season long and defended him incessantly. But for me there are too many reasons why Wright should have been pulled sooner.

[Kimmi]

Very sensible. But we already know that stuff can happen in any game to cause the starter to leave early, only one of which is ineffectiveness. That's why some managers--like Farrell and Francona--normally use the "7-run rule" to gauge when to pull a starter. It seems a lot, but it saves the bullpen.

 

But in this instance, it wasn't 7, but 10 runs.

 

In this instance Cora had 8 relievers, not the usual 7, and 2 of them are experienced long relievers who in fact started earlier in the season.

 

In this instance the game was winnable because, before those 4 runs in the 4th inning, the score was 6-5 Seattle.

 

In this instance leaving Wright in did not save anything. The bullpen still had to pitch 5.2 innings.

 

In this instance, they also had to pitch 5 innings the next night when ERod was pulled.

 

But in this instance there was an off day yesterday which helped the bullpen recover and which Cora knew about.

 

I'm very pro-Cora and have been all season long and defended him incessantly. But for me there are too many reasons why Wright should have been pulled sooner.

 

As I've already said, I agree with the majority that Cora made the wrong decision in keeping Wright in as long as he did.

 

That said, even though the pen still had to pitch 5.2 innings in that game, that's a hindsight fact. I can understand Cora's thinking in hoping to get another couple innings out of Wright. And the fact that the pen also had to pitch 5 inning the next night gives some credence to that line of thinking, doesn't it?

[a700hitter]

As I've already said, I agree with the majority that Cora made the wrong decision in keeping Wright in as long as he did.

 

That said, even though the pen still had to pitch 5.2 innings in that game, that's a hindsight fact. I can understand Cora's thinking in hoping to get another couple innings out of Wright. And the fact that the pen also had to pitch 5 inning the next night gives some credence to that line of thinking, doesn't it?

At 6 runs with men on base and your CF needing medical attention from running down rockets yielded by Wright and with Cruz drooling to bat again to see if he can hit one further than his last missile, it was not hindsight. It was foresight that disaster was looming. Anyone could see that. It was as clear as the sense of doom felt by the bad guys when Dirty Harry shows up with his .44 Magnum.

[Kimmi]

At 6 runs with men on base and your CF needing medical attention from running down rockets yielded by Wright and with Cruz drooling to bat again to see if he can hit one further than his last missile, it was not hindsight. It was foresight that disaster was looming. Anyone could see that. It was as clear as the sense of doom felt by the bad guys when Dirty Harry shows up with his .44 Magnum.

 

Nope.

[a700hitter]

Nope.

You are a hopeless apologist for Cora. Even his most ardent defenders copped to that mistake. And BTW, I like Cora, and I think he is best of the crop of first time managers, but he messed up that situation and most of us knew it in real time. Was anyone not cringing when Cruz came to bat that inning? That’s foresight.

[Kimmi]

as i've already said, i agree with the majority that cora made the wrong decision in keeping wright in as long as he did.

 

^^^read^^^

[a700hitter]

^^^read^^^

i read it, but it was not hindsight for most of us. And calling it “hindsight” is an excuse for him. You read. LOL!

[Maxbialystock]

As I've already said, I agree with the majority that Cora made the wrong decision in keeping Wright in as long as he did.

 

That said, even though the pen still had to pitch 5.2 innings in that game, that's a hindsight fact. I can understand Cora's thinking in hoping to get another couple innings out of Wright. And the fact that the pen also had to pitch 5 inning the next night gives some credence to that line of thinking, doesn't it?

 

I would argue the other side. Two straight nights of heavy bullpen did no damage to them--and we won the first game because of the bullpen and lost the second because of the starter. Tonight they are coming off a rest day and should be ready. I'm pretty sure none of our guys are overworked.

[StephenCurry30]

we have two long relievers in the pen for a reason, he shouldn't be hesitant to use Velazquez and/or Johnson in those games, otherwise why have them in the pen?

[mvp 78]

Knuckleballers just make us crazy. We’re still grumping over a game from a few days ago THAT THE SOX WON!

 

I’m glad Wright is on the DL so we can all move on.