A Realistic View at 2018: Part II

[moonslav59]

I called it the appearance of a "lack of fire & desire" last year.

 

I feel much better with this Cora led team.

[Bellhorn04]

When they traded Lynn, my heart sunk to a very low point. The Fisk fiasco and Burleson trade was nearly enough to turn away the staunchest of Sox fans, but I stuck with 'em.

 

The dismantling of that team was sickening, but if you were a real fan you didn't have much choice but to stick with them. It's more like they're stuck IN you.

[notin]

When they traded Lynn, my heart sunk to a very low point. The Fisk fiasco and Burleson trade was nearly enough to turn away the staunchest of Sox fans, but I stuck with 'em.

 

The Lynn deal was so stupid. Who was that awful GM? "Hey' let's trade our 28 year old former MVP for a washed up cranky outfielder, a crappy minor league pitcher whose responsible for more hits than the Beatles, and what's left of Frank Tanana!! Too stupid? OK, we should throw in Steve Renko, who is actually the second best player in this deal. Now it makes sense!"

 

What was the reason behind this deal? Did Lynn sleep with someone's wife or something? Did the Angels' GM take hostages and this was his ransom demand? Were GMs really this stupid back in the late 70s and early 80s? Or was it just ours?

 

This one is almost as dumb as trading Bill Lee straight up for Stan Papi. When you look back at the series of incredibly lop-sided trades that broke up those 1970's teams, it is easy to understand why it took so long to win anything. The Sox weren't "cursed." They were just run by morons...

[BillyWilliams]

When they traded Lynn, my heart sunk to a very low point. The Fisk fiasco and Burleson trade was nearly enough to turn away the staunchest of Sox fans, but I stuck with 'em.

 

The fisk ordeal was pretty bad, the FO really screwed the pooch on that one.

 

And I never understood the lynn trade.

[Bellhorn04]

Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater was another beauty, too, of course.

[notin]

Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater was another beauty, too, of course.

 

True, although Cater apparently did not work out, but at least he was a full time player and a respectable hitter. The deals that broke up those 1970's teams were simply atrocious.

 

I know Don Zimmer wanted a few players gone like Lee and Jim Willoughby and a couple others, but honestly, was the best deal the Sox could get for Lee a utility infielder? We've all seen teams deal malcontent players before and get much better returns. The Cubs had one of the biggest headcases on the planet making premium money at the time in Milton Bradley, and even they got more than a utility infielder in return.

 

Those late 1970's Red Sox teams unloaded Fisk, Lynn, Burleson, Willoughby, Reggie Cleveland, Butch Hobson, George Scott, and Bernie Carbo and in return the only starter they got back was Carney Lansford (although Mark Clear and Rick Miller were useful players, but were also acquired in the same deal as Lansford).

 

And really given the number of players he had trouble controlling, why didn't anyone decide maybe Zimmer was the problem?

[OH FOY]

Ben Oglivie for Dick McAuliffe. Oglivie went on to hit 225 HRS after trade. (Tigers +Brewers) McAuliffe 5. Edited October 3, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

Cecil Cooper did OK after we traded him too.

[OH FOY]

Cecil Cooper did OK after we traded him too.

 

That was questionable too. Young Cooper, or the older Scott.

[Bellhorn04]

That was questionable too. Young Cooper, or the older Scott.

 

Boomer had a good season in 1977. After that he was pretty much toast. Not a very good deal, on balance.

[Bellhorn04]

The bottom line is, the 1970's management were pooch screwers extraordinaire.

[mvp 78]

The bottom line is, the 1970's management were pooch screwers extraordinaire.

 

Without Haywood Sullivan, they never break the curse in 2004!!!!

[OH FOY]

The bottom line is, the 1970's management were pooch screwers extraordinaire.

 

Oh yeah, there was a lot of talent, especially from the Farm, even a kid like Beniquez, nothing really special, but that was one of the best Farms that were putting out kids. Miller, Moret, Stanley, just to name a few.

[moonslav59]

Oh yeah, there was a lot of talent, especially from the Farm, even a kid like Beniquez, nothing really special, but that was one of the best Farms that were putting out kids. Miller, Moret, Stanley, just to name a few.

 

If they just kept all their talent and got a good manager, we'd have probably won a ring.

 

C- Fisk (Montgomery)

1B- Cooper

2B- Doyle/McAuliffe> Remy

SS- Burleson (Guerrero)

3B- Hobson

LF- Rice

CF- Lynn (Reggie Smith, Rick Miller)

RF- Evans (Beniquez)

DH- Oglivie

(Too bad about Tony C.)

 

It was the lack of 2-3 great SP'ers at the same time that hurt the most...

 

SP- Tiant, Lee, Wise, Cleveland, Moret> Eck, Torres, Tudor

RP- Campbell, Stanley, Drago, Burton, Willoughby

 

 

[OH FOY]

If they just kept all their talent and got a good manager, we'd have probably won a ring.

 

C- Fisk (Montgomery)

1B- Cooper

2B- Doyle/McAuliffe> Remy

SS- Burleson (Guerrero)

3B- Hobson

LF- Rice

CF- Lynn (Reggie Smith, Rick Miller)

RF- Evans (Beniquez)

DH- Oglivie

(Too bad about Tony C.)

 

It was the lack of 2-3 great SP'ers at the same time that hurt the most...

 

SP- Tiant, Lee, Wise, Cleveland, Moret> Eck, Torres, Tudor

RP- Campbell, Stanley, Drago, Burton, Willoughby

 

 

 

Absolutely Agree. Look at this talent. Unreal.

[Kimmi]

Tony Armas - a name made up of 4 body parts.

 

LOL Bell.

[notin]

Oh yeah, there was a lot of talent, especially from the Farm, even a kid like Beniquez, nothing really special, but that was one of the best Farms that were putting out kids. Miller, Moret, Stanley, just to name a few.

 

The Sox did re-acquire Miller as part of the Burleson trade - the only trade that management made that wasn’t completely horrific.

 

I’m surprised they didn’t trade Jim Rice for a backup catcher, now that I think about it...

[Kimmi]

I think the comment by Betts sums up the best way to look at effort during the POs. His comment;

 

"Just think better urgency, and that will be our mindset from pitch one and treat each pitch like it's your last," Betts said. "I think it's very important to set the tone. It's something we haven't done the last couple of years and something we hope to do this year."

 

I think there's a fine line between playing with a sense of urgency and playing tense, though. While you want they guys to have a sense of urgency, you also want them to feel loose and not be pressing all the time. It's a delicate balance.

[moonslav59]

The Sox did re-acquire Miller as part of the Burleson trade - the only trade that management made that wasn’t completely horrific.

 

I’m surprised they didn’t trade Jim Rice for a backup catcher, now that I think about it...

 

Carney Lansford got us Tony Armas.

 

Tony Armas Jr got us Pedro.

 

I guess it was a great deal!

[moonslav59]

I think there's a fine line between playing with a sense of urgency and playing tense, though. While you want they guys to have a sense of urgency, you also want them to feel loose and not be pressing all the time. It's a delicate balance.

 

Cora has us at just the right balance.

[Kimmi]

Cora has us at just the right balance.

 

In Cora we trust.

[a700hitter]

The bottom line is, the 1970's management were pooch screwers extraordinaire.

Dick O'Connell was an excellent GM. He brought in a ton of talent during his tenure.

[S5Dewey]

I brought Evans in because when I think of best Sox outfields, Rice-Lynn-Evans is the first thing that jumps to mind.

 

And I can see the advantages of having a CF in RF at Fenway. I just couldn't think of too many former CF's or players capable of playing CF who have played out there regularly. Betts and Victorino both did, but beyond that, I'm stumped.

 

Usually, when someone makes a statement like that, they have someone in mind. If it was just Betts, I can see that. He's a great example. If Victorino was additional support, OK. But since those two don't encompass a ton of years out in RF, I figured you had someone in mind i was missing or played before my time...

 

without casting aspursions on one of my favorite players ever, Dwight Evans....

 

Ever since I became old enough to think critically about baseball I've thought that the shape of Fenway Park almost begs for two fleet-afoot outfielders in it. It can also abide one mediocre one in LF for the same reason. Especially if that one can hit like Ted Williams, Yaz, or Jim Rice. Or Mike Greenwell for that matter.

 

Therefore I was very happy when they signed Victorino to play RF. That's also why I'm happy with JBJ/Mookie out there and by extension why I don't want to see JBJ traded. Some have said that trading JBJ wouldn't hurt the team badly because Mookie can move to CF, but that creates the problem of who's now going to play RF without making it a net loss defensively. We now have two players who could be solid in CF and while that may not be the only reason this team won 108 games it's one of the reasons.

 

So.. in a nutshell.. I didn't have any other OF tandems in mind. It's just that what has happened successfully reinforced what I believe so I jumped on it!

[moonslav59]

without casting aspursions on one of my favorite players ever, Dwight Evans....

 

Ever since I became old enough to think critically about baseball I've thought that the shape of Fenway Park almost begs for two fleet-afoot outfielders in it. It can also abide one mediocre one in LF for the same reason. Especially if that one can hit like Ted Williams, Yaz, or Jim Rice. Or Mike Greenwell for that matter.

 

Therefore I was very happy when they signed Victorino to play RF. That's also why I'm happy with JBJ/Mookie out there and by extension why I don't want to see JBJ traded. Some have said that trading JBJ wouldn't hurt the team badly because Mookie can move to CF, but that creates the problem of who's now going to play RF without making it a net loss defensively. We now have two players who could be solid in CF and while that may not be the only reason this team won 108 games it's one of the reasons.

 

So.. in a nutshell.. I didn't have any other OF tandems in mind. It's just that what has happened successfully reinforced what I believe so I jumped on it!

 

I'm with you 100% on this.

 

I loved the Vic signing, too, but I knew it was for too many years. (That's the only way we could get him.)

 

Lynn-Evans

 

JBJ-Betts

 

What's not to love about that defense built for our park?

[moonslav59]

QO offers set at $17.9M.

 

Kimbrel: Yes

 

Pom: No.

 

Note:

A draft pick after Round 4 will be awarded if the team losing the free agent paid luxury tax penalties in the preceding season.

 

[notin]

without casting aspursions on one of my favorite players ever, Dwight Evans....

 

Ever since I became old enough to think critically about baseball I've thought that the shape of Fenway Park almost begs for two fleet-afoot outfielders in it. It can also abide one mediocre one in LF for the same reason. Especially if that one can hit like Ted Williams, Yaz, or Jim Rice. Or Mike Greenwell for that matter.

 

Therefore I was very happy when they signed Victorino to play RF. That's also why I'm happy with JBJ/Mookie out there and by extension why I don't want to see JBJ traded. Some have said that trading JBJ wouldn't hurt the team badly because Mookie can move to CF, but that creates the problem of who's now going to play RF without making it a net loss defensively. We now have two players who could be solid in CF and while that may not be the only reason this team won 108 games it's one of the reasons.

 

So.. in a nutshell.. I didn't have any other OF tandems in mind. It's just that what has happened successfully reinforced what I believe so I jumped on it!

 

And that’s ok. It’s easier to get two defensive CF types than to find another Dwight Evans.

 

But, while I’m not on the “trade JBJ” bandwagon, it certainly is a realistic possibility, and that does likely mean someone else who is not a CF would take over RF. Fortunately, while your thought has an advantage, we have at least seen it isn’t a necessity. Because if Martinez moves back to the outfield, there might be a noticeable drop off in defense...

[moonslav59]

And that’s ok. It’s easier to get two defensive CF types than to find another Dwight Evans.

 

But, while I’m not on the “trade JBJ” bandwagon, it certainly is a realistic possibility, and that does likely mean someone else who is not a CF would take over RF. Fortunately, while your thought has an advantage, we have at least seen it isn’t a necessity. Because if Martinez moves back to the outfield, there might be a noticeable drop off in defense...

 

I hope we don't trade JBJ, but I agree, it might happen. I'd hate to do it just to get JD more OF time, and we'd have to get a DH, too.

 

I'd really like to keep Betts in RF. If we trade JBJ, we could sign a great glove-no hit CF'er for cheap and keep JD mostly at DH.

 

[cp176]

Tony Armas - a name made up of 4 body parts.

 

LOL - Many of you weigh in on what you consider to be your favorite posts. Mostly and rightfully so, they tend to agree with the way you view things. This is one of the very best posts that I have read since I have been on board!!!

[cp176]

I hope we don't trade JBJ, but I agree, it might happen. I'd hate to do it just to get JD more OF time, and we'd have to get a DH, too.

 

I'd really like to keep Betts in RF. If we trade JBJ, we could sign a great glove-no hit CF'er for cheap and keep JD mostly at DH.

 

 

I really haven't been paying much attention lately here so forgive me if I have missed something. Has JD complained or been lobbying for more field playing time? I do think that there is a chance that JBJ gets traded during this off season but I doubt if it has anything at all to do with the team feeling any pressure to play JD in the outfield. He hasn't struck me as that kind of guy.

[S5Dewey]

I hope we don't trade JBJ, but I agree, it might happen. I'd hate to do it just to get JD more OF time, and we'd have to get a DH, too.

 

I'd really like to keep Betts in RF. If we trade JBJ, we could sign a great glove-no hit CF'er for cheap and keep JD mostly at DH.

 

 

Here's the problem with that. We give up a great-glove, pretty good (or better) hit CF- a net loss - and keep JD mostly at DH, which makes him unhappy. We'd be trying to fix something that's not broken.

 

If this team is desperate to save money they could trade a mediocre glove good hit shortstop for a great glove light hitting SS. I'm hearing the minors are full of guys like that although I don't follow other team's MiL systems enough to know for sure.

 

IIRC the team gets out from under Hanley's contract after this year and The Fat Man's contract after 2019. I'd rather see this team 'bite the bullet' in 2019 & 2020 than break up this outfield prematurely.