A Realistic View at 2018: Part II

[Nick]

Lack of starting depth was overblown.

 

E Rod is set to return tomorrow. He's missed one turn.

 

Pom is also on his way to return maybe even early as next week.

 

AGIAN YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL FOLKS. You have to manage the roster. There's a price to be paid for paying one player $31M or $22M. Worse yet we're paying someone not even on the roster $19M.

 

DD has given this group a chance to win its 3rd straight division title. I doubt the players think DD has not done enough.

 

Don't give him any credit, I really don't care.

 

It's up to the players. THEY OWN IT, GOOD OR BAD. ALL THE CREDIT GOES TO THEM IF THEY WIN.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Lack of starting depth was overblown.

 

E Rod is set to return tomorrow. He's missed one turn.

 

Pom is also on his way to return maybe even early as next week.

 

AGIAN YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL FOLKS. You have to manage the roster. There's a price to be paid for paying one player $31M or $22M. Worse yet we're paying someone not even on the roster $19M.

 

DD has given this group a chance to win its 3rd straight division title. I doubt the players think DD has not done enough.

 

Don't give him any credit, I really don't care.

 

It's up to the players. THEY OWN IT, GOOD OR BAD. ALL THE CREDIT GOES TO THEM IF THEY WIN.

 

Well said. Yes, the talk of starter depth was overblown. Surely, Johnson and Velazquez deserved 2-3 starts minimum, before we had to worry about finding someone else, and both Pom and ERod were due back before that happened.

 

I'm glad we still ave the $3-4M to play with this summer.

 

I'm happy with DD's plan. We have a highly competitive team and should have one for 4-5 years (2016-2019 or 2020). You can't really ask for much more than that, except for maybe a better farm to go along with it.

 

I'm thrilled about about our chances this year.

 

[Station 13]

Did E-rod even appear in a spring training game?

[moonslav59]

Did E-rod even appear in a spring training game?

 

No. He was recovering from his injury.

[notin]

Lack of starting depth was overblown.

 

E Rod is set to return tomorrow. He's missed one turn.

 

Pom is also on his way to return maybe even early as next week.

 

AGIAN YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL FOLKS. You have to manage the roster. There's a price to be paid for paying one player $31M or $22M. Worse yet we're paying someone not even on the roster $19M.

 

DD has given this group a chance to win its 3rd straight division title. I doubt the players think DD has not done enough.

 

Don't give him any credit, I really don't care.

 

It's up to the players. THEY OWN IT, GOOD OR BAD. ALL THE CREDIT GOES TO THEM IF THEY WIN.

 

So 8 games into the season and we know starter depth was overblown?

 

I'm not sure if people get the idea of what depth is...

[Spudboy]

Eight games into the season is too early to draw any conclusions about what it means for the rest of the season.

Maybe the Sox aren't going to be a good hitting team but OTOH maybe the reason the Sox haven't scored more runs is because they've faced some good pitching.

Maybe the Sox are 7-1 because they have good pitching or OTOH maybe it's because the teams they've been playing can't hit.

 

These things are going to shake out when the Sox and the Rays start playing other teams.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think the Sox are appreciably better than the Rays. I just don't think we should be assuming that just because they're better than the Rays they're also better than many other teams.

 

Good stuff.

[Nick]

So 8 games into the season and we know starter depth was overblown?

 

I'm not sure if people get the idea of what depth is...

 

The concern was our starting five would miss significant amount of starts at the beginning of the season. That turned out not to be true.

 

You maybe smarter, but I'm pretty sure I know what depth is........what's funnier is 'people like you' presumed to know more than others.

[Hitch]

It's all very good shouting out about how we didn't/don't need depth now we've started so well and the injuries have been minor, but starting the season we had 3 starting pitchers out injured, one of our top starters with question marks over his elbow and we had no idea how Johnson and Velazquez would do. And quite literally nothing under that worth talking about.

 

Lets not kid ourselves, it's a long season and you can never have enough pitcher. I'm not sure why you think getting excited about the argument is good idea right now.

[Bellhorn04]

So 8 games into the season and we know starter depth was overblown?

 

I'm not sure if people get the idea of what depth is...

 

OTOH, maybe your comment that our opening day rotation was 'pretty bad' because it included Johnson and Velazquez for a start or two was overblown too...

[cp176]

Lack of starting depth was overblown.

 

E Rod is set to return tomorrow. He's missed one turn.

 

Pom is also on his way to return maybe even early as next week.

 

AGIAN YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL FOLKS. You have to manage the roster. There's a price to be paid for paying one player $31M or $22M. Worse yet we're paying someone not even on the roster $19M.

 

DD has given this group a chance to win its 3rd straight division title. I doubt the players think DD has not done enough.

 

Don't give him any credit, I really don't care.

 

It's up to the players. THEY OWN IT, GOOD OR BAD. ALL THE CREDIT GOES TO THEM IF THEY WIN.

 

I agree with you absolutely. It is an arguement that is hard to win though because we all know that good pitching is a must and some people do believe in stockpiling as much as you can. I think that your comment that you can't have it all is pretty appropriate. It is all about balance. Hard to imagine that some people here can't understand that there are in fact different ways to approach things. (Not talking about you Kimmi I think that you understand this concept.)

[Bellhorn04]

It's all very good shouting out about how we didn't/don't need depth now we've started so well and the injuries have been minor, but starting the season we had 3 starting pitchers out injured, one of our top starters with question marks over his elbow and we had no idea how Johnson and Velazquez would do. And quite literally nothing under that worth talking about.

 

Lets not kid ourselves, it's a long season and you can never have enough pitcher. I'm not sure why you think getting excited about the argument is good idea right now.

 

Every team in baseball history has been susceptible to pitching injuries.

 

With regard to whether the Red Sox have 'enough' pitching depth, you need some sort of comparison point. How does our depth compare to that of other contending teams? How does it compare to that of other Red Sox contending teams of the Theo Epstein era?

[Kimmi]

Lack of starting depth was overblown.

 

E Rod is set to return tomorrow. He's missed one turn.

 

Pom is also on his way to return maybe even early as next week.

 

AGIAN YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL FOLKS. You have to manage the roster. There's a price to be paid for paying one player $31M or $22M. Worse yet we're paying someone not even on the roster $19M.

 

DD has given this group a chance to win its 3rd straight division title. I doubt the players think DD has not done enough.

 

Don't give him any credit, I really don't care.

 

It's up to the players. THEY OWN IT, GOOD OR BAD. ALL THE CREDIT GOES TO THEM IF THEY WIN.

 

Who is not giving Dombrowski any credit? Who doesn't think that this team has a good chance to win the division?

 

There is a legitimate reason to be concerned about the depth of our starting rotation.

 

If they can stay healthy, we'll have one of the best rotations in baseball. But their ability to stay healthy is a valid concern.

[Kimmi]

It's all very good shouting out about how we didn't/don't need depth now we've started so well and the injuries have been minor, but starting the season we had 3 starting pitchers out injured, one of our top starters with question marks over his elbow and we had no idea how Johnson and Velazquez would do. And quite literally nothing under that worth talking about.

 

Lets not kid ourselves, it's a long season and you can never have enough pitcher. I'm not sure why you think getting excited about the argument is good idea right now.

 

Good post Hitch.

[oldtimer]

Back to Bogaerts. I don't buy the argument that Bogaerts sudden resurgence of power is due solely to his wrist injury getting better. It seems to me that he has changed his plate approach and his swing this year and it has resulted in better pitches to hit and better contact when he does swing. Other healthy periods at the plate never showed the kind of power he has now, so he has gotten the coaching and taken it seriously and has made a remarkable advance in his hitting. It really enhances his value and he compares favorably with the better SS's despite his fielding limitations.

[Bellhorn04]

Back to Bogaerts. I don't buy the argument that Bogaerts sudden resurgence of power is due solely to his wrist injury getting better. It seems to me that he has changed his plate approach and his swing this year and it has resulted in better pitches to hit and better contact when he does swing. Other healthy periods at the plate never showed the kind of power he has now, so he has gotten the coaching and taken it seriously and has made a remarkable advance in his hitting. It really enhances his value and he compares favorably with the better SS's despite his fielding limitations.

 

I think it's probably a combination of things. He's healthy, he worked hard in the offseason and added a little strength, and as you say his approach seems better and more aggressive.

 

Fun to watch, that's for sure!

[notin]

Mimi

The concern was our starting five would miss significant amount of starts at the beginning of the season. That turned out not to be true.

 

You maybe smarter, but I'm pretty sure I know what depth is........what's funnier is 'people like you' presumed to know more than others.

 

The concern for the starting five was only part of the issue. Another potentially bigger concern is the other end of the season.

 

And even then, even if all the starters start every game from here on out, it doesn't mean having depth was a bad idea that was overblown. If your house doesn't burn down, was your need for homeowners insurance "overblown"?

[Bellhorn04]

Mimi

 

The concern for the starting five was only part of the issue. Another potentially bigger concern is the other end of the season.

 

And even then, even if all the starters start every game from here on out, it doesn't mean having depth was a bad idea that was overblown. If your house doesn't burn down, was your need for homeowners insurance "overblown"?

 

You said this:

 

"I'm not sure if people get the idea of what depth is..."

 

Do you really think 'people' don't grasp the idea that pitchers are fragile and having adequate backup is a good thing?

 

The real issue at hand is whether the 2018 Red Sox began the season with sufficient depth. We don't really know the answer. But you could probably make a case that Johnson, Velazquez and Wright look like a semblance of reasonable depth. And if it turns out that more is needed, there are some other dumpster dive options out there as always.

[moonslav59]

So 8 games into the season and we know starter depth was overblown?

 

I'm not sure if people get the idea of what depth is...

 

Well, when ERod, Pom and Wright return, we know we'll have Wright, Johnson and Velazquez as starter depth.

 

We feel a tiny bit better about 2 of them after seeing their intital start of the season go well.

 

Yes, there still should be some concern, but with a further spending budget of just about $3-4M, I think DD did the right thing by waiting. He may end up having to find a SP'er this winter, but maybe we'll have a higher need elsewhere, and we'll look back and be glad we didn't spend on a starter.

[moonslav59]

The concern was our starting five would miss significant amount of starts at the beginning of the season. That turned out not to be true.

 

You maybe smarter, but I'm pretty sure I know what depth is........what's funnier is 'people like you' presumed to know more than others.

 

Actually, I think it was pretty well thought that we'd only need Johnson for 1 or two startes and Velazquez for one.

[moonslav59]

Back to Bogaerts. I don't buy the argument that Bogaerts sudden resurgence of power is due solely to his wrist injury getting better. It seems to me that he has changed his plate approach and his swing this year and it has resulted in better pitches to hit and better contact when he does swing. Other healthy periods at the plate never showed the kind of power he has now, so he has gotten the coaching and taken it seriously and has made a remarkable advance in his hitting. It really enhances his value and he compares favorably with the better SS's despite his fielding limitations.

 

One could argue that Bogey never had much power before the wrist injury, so I'm not so sure you can easily chalk it up to that.

[notin]

Actually, I think it was pretty well thought that we'd only need Johnson for 1 or two startes and Velazquez for one.

 

In April, yes...

[moonslav59]

In April, yes...

 

But, your argument was that we should not wait until summer to get starter depth.

 

By waiting until July 31st, we can obtain a $9M pitcher and only owe $3M.

[Nick]

Mimi

 

The concern for the starting five was only part of the issue. Another potentially bigger concern is the other end of the season.

 

And even then, even if all the starters start every game from here on out, it doesn't mean having depth was a bad idea that was overblown. If your house doesn't burn down, was your need for homeowners insurance "overblown"?

 

I think DD rolled the dice that Price, Pom and E Rod was not going to be out significant portion of the year and that we had enough depth in the minors.

 

I guess better question is WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

[moonslav59]

I think DD rolled the dice that Price, Pom and E Rod was not going to be out significant portion of the year and that we had enough depth in the minors.

 

I guess better question is WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

 

Plus, it wasn't like DD wasn't out there looking for veteran depth for the minor leagues.

 

Those guys saw the writing on the wall and went to teaams where they had a better chance at getting a long look. That alone is telling.

[notin]

But, your argument was that we should not wait until summer to get starter depth.

 

By waiting until July 31st, we can obtain a $9M pitcher and only owe $3M.

 

Sure, if we have something to give. What's the trade bait for a $9mill pitcher? Our best farm piece was Chavis, but not any more. I wonder how much value Travis has.

 

And signing a pitcher or two to minor league deals in the winter doesn't preclude making deals later in the season. The more options you have, the more likely one of them works out...

[notin]

I think DD rolled the dice that Price, Pom and E Rod was not going to be out significant portion of the year and that we had enough depth in the minors.

 

I guess better question is WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

 

I kept saying all along, sign a veteran pitcher or two to a minor league deal. 25 teams signed veteran pitchers to minor league deals this off-season. Of the 5 that didn't, 3 (Braves, Rockies, Twins) signed pitchers to major league contracts. Only two teams didn't bring a single pitcher into the organization - the Dodgers and the Red Sox. The Dodgers have a deep farm with 4 of their top ten prospects as pitchers who spent last year in AA or higher. From the Sox weaker farm, we have no pitching prospects who pitched AA or better last year, and only Sharwyn hitting that level this year.

 

In fact, not only did the Sox not add a pitcher to the organization, we lost some depth in the foolish non-tender of Ben Taylor. But then, if we didn't DFA Taylor, the team would have been unable to acquire that cash they got for Deven Marrero.

 

And, hey, we got Jalen Beeks for depth. And batting practice...

Edited April 8, 2018 by notin

[notin]

Plus, it wasn't like DD wasn't out there looking for veteran depth for the minor leagues.

 

Those guys saw the writing on the wall and went to teaams where they had a better chance at getting a long look. That alone is telling.

 

I know that was the case last year, but there wan't so much buzz on it this year. Plus many veterans were waiting well into March and probably starting to worry about pitching at all.

 

And really, there are still a few arms out there to be had. None of them are needle movers, but history does say you can get lucky with a pitcher. But more important in these type of deals, the Sox have absolutely nothing to lose...

[moonslav59]

Sure, if we have something to give. What's the trade bait for a $9mill pitcher? Our best farm piece was Chavis, but not any more. I wonder how much value Travis has.

 

And signing a pitcher or two to minor league deals in the winter doesn't preclude making deals later in the season. The more options you have, the more likely one of them works out...

 

Teams that are out of playoff contention just about give away starters that are at least slightly better than the ones signed to minor league deals in February.

 

We're talking 7th starter type in jan-Feb vs 4-5 starter types in July.

[moonslav59]

I kept saying all along, sign a veteran pitcher or two to a minor league deal. 25 teams signed veteran pitchers to minor league deals this off-season. Of the 5 that didn't, 3 (Braves, Rockies, Twins) signed pitchers to major league contracts. Only two teams didn't bring a single pitcher into the organization - the Dodgers and the Red Sox. The Dodgers have a deep farm with 4 of their top ten prospects as pitchers who spent last year in AA or higher. From the Sox weaker farm, we have no pitching prospects who pitched AA or better last year, and only Sharwyn hitting that level this year.

 

In fact, not only did the Sox not add a pitcher to the organization, we lost some depth in the foolish non-tender of Ben Taylor. But then, if we didn't DFA Taylor, the team would have been unable to acquire that cash they got for Deven Marrero.

 

And, hey, we got Jalen Beeks for depth. And batting practice...

 

We brought Wright, Smith and eventually (hopefully) Thornburg into the mix. All were virtually nonexistent in 2017.

 

(Note: I'd have kept Taylor, too.)

[moonslav59]

I know that was the case last year, but there wan't so much buzz on it this year. Plus many veterans were waiting well into March and probably starting to worry about pitching at all.

 

And really, there are still a few arms out there to be had. None of them are needle movers, but history does say you can get lucky with a pitcher. But more important in these type of deals, the Sox have absolutely nothing to lose...

 

Nobody is rushing to sign them now. I'm okay with waiting.