Spring Training 2018 Thread

[S5Dewey]

I'll be complaining, because I'll have very little confidence he will have back-to-back good+ seasons.

 

The second reason will be that, even after a hypothetical good+ season this year, he still won'tbe worth close to $22M in 2019, a year where our budget will be even tighter than this year.

 

 

Help me. This doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Are you saying that if Hanley is having a great year (OPS>.850) and the Sox are in the running for a playoff spot you'd rather see the Sox put him on the bench than give him the AB's necessary for his option to vest? Even if it may mean missing the playoffs this year??

[moonslav59]

Help me. This doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Are you saying that if Hanley is having a great year (OPS>.850) and the Sox are in the running for a playoff spot you'd rather see the Sox put him on the bench than give him the AB's necessary for his option to vest? Even if it may mean missing the playoffs this year??

 

Depends on how well Moreland and/or Nunez are doing, and how well HRam is doing vs RHPs.

 

I'm not saying I'd definitely bench HRam, if he's over .850, but the point remains, he won't be worth the $22M in 2019, even if he hits .900, and we'll end up losing Pom or worse by having HRam vest.

 

I'd give Moreland (vs RHPs) and Swihart as many ABs as possible early in the year, and find out what Swihart has to offer (us or in trade).If HRam is at .850, and Moreland is hitting .750, I'll revisit the issue mid-season or late season, but I'm starting the season looking to limit HRam's PAs, until he proves something. It's not like the guy has proven jack s*** to this team. He's earned nothing. If anything, he's earned a spot on the bench, and this is coming from someone who thinks HRam will have a good year.

 

Other here are saying we should DFA him or trade him while paying $20M of his salary. I don't want HRam on the team next year. I want to win it all this year. If I felt we needed HRam to winit all, of course I'd change my mind, but my mind needs to be changed before I say we should play HRam FT.

[Spudboy]

Exactly. The guy has done everything the Sox have asked him to do, and has done so without complaining.

 

Personally, I hope he has a monster year.

 

Clearly worth $22. mil times 5.

[moonslav59]

Clearly worth $22. mil times 5.

 

Yes!

 

He's done EVERYTHING!

[mvp 78]

I'm not saying I'd definitely bench HRam, if he's over .850, but the point remains, he won't be worth the $22M in 2019, even if he hits .900, and we'll end up losing Pom or worse by having HRam vest.

 

And that's why I wouldn't let him reach his PA goal.

[Bellhorn04]

Obviously the best case scenario would be for HanRam to have a good season but not reach the vesting option. I just don't think Alex Cora should be expected to manage the team with one eye on that number if HanRam is going well.

[mvp 78]

Obviously the best case scenario would be for HanRam to have a good season but not reach the vesting option. I just don't think Alex Cora should be expected to manage the team with one eye on that number if HanRam is going well.

 

If he goes over PA's, I won't blame Cora. He needs to use the roster he has been given.

[moonslav59]

If he goes over PA's, I won't blame Cora. He needs to use the roster he has been given.

 

He just needs 56 less PAs than last year.

[S5Dewey]

We have a very small window now of two years or three years maximum to make it happen. I don't want to miss a chance at the playoffs in 2018 just so Hanley doesn't vest.

 

As Ralph Houk said, " Don't save a pitcher for tomorrow. It may rain tomorrow."

[moonslav59]

We have a very small window now of two years or three years maximum to make it happen. I don't want to miss a chance at the playoffs in 2018 just so Hanley doesn't vest.

 

As Ralph Houk said, " Don't save a pitcher for tomorrow. It may rain tomorrow."

 

I'm not totally convinced of giving HRam his vest, assuming he's doing well. He has to win me over.

 

If he does, I'm still thinking long and hard about letting him vest. A lot depends on how well Moreland is doing, or if Swihart or Travis have entered the 1B picture.

 

I want to win in 2019,also.

 

Besides, playoff PAs don't count, so unless we're fighting for the last playoff slot, playing HRam more and more might not really matter as much as having a rested HRam in October.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not totally convinced of giving HRam his vest, assuming he's doing well. He has to win me over.

 

If he does, I'm still thinking long and hard about letting him vest. A lot depends on how well Moreland is doing, or if Swihart or Travis have entered the 1B picture.

 

I want to win in 2019,also.

 

Besides, playoff PAs don't count, so unless we're fighting for the last playoff slot, playing HRam more and more might not really matter as much as having a rested HRam in October.

 

What if we're fighting for the division with the Yanks?

[moonslav59]

What if we're fighting for the division with the Yanks?

 

It will depend on just how much of a better choice HRam is over Moreland (particularly vs RHPs) and maybe Swihart/Travis.

 

It depends on just how good HRam is doing.

 

It depends on how far ahead or behind we are from the Yanks and the last wild card slot.

 

Right now, I'm for not letting him vest. He has to convince me he deserves the vest.

 

He's got a long way to go.

[cp176]

It will depend on just how much of a better choice HRam is over Moreland (particularly vs RHPs) and maybe Swihart/Travis.

 

It depends on just how good HRam is doing.

 

It depends on how far ahead or behind we are from the Yanks and the last wild card slot.

 

Right now, I'm for not letting him vest. He has to convince me he deserves the vest.

 

He's got a long way to go.

 

Talk can sound awfully tough through the written word on a forum like this. It is just my opinion but if Ramirez is healthy and having a decent season there is no way that this organization would jerk him around by keeping a close eye on his at bats allowing him to come close but to not quite reach the designated number of at bats. As a group, this ownership has proven to be very sensitive to just about anything. If he is healthy and hitting, I don't think that there is any way they would want to deal with the crap that would come along with playing a game like this with anyone 22 million at stake or not. Now if he is injured, or just not playing well, I think the game changes.

[moonslav59]

Talk can sound awfully tough through the written word on a forum like this. It is just my opinion but if Ramirez is healthy and having a decent season there is no way that this organization would jerk him around by keeping a close eye on his at bats allowing him to come close but to not quite reach the designated number of at bats. As a group, this ownership has proven to be very sensitive to just about anything. If he is healthy and hitting, I don't think that there is any way they would want to deal with the crap that would come along with playing a game like this with anyone 22 million at stake or not. Now if he is injured, or just not playing well, I think the game changes.

 

For argument's sake, let's say by mid July, HRam is on pace for 500 PAs and just barely reaching his vesting option.

 

He's doing "decent" enough: .825 OPS, but he's .900 vs LHPs and .790 vs RHPs.

 

Moreland is doing pretty much the same and is at .790 vs RHPs. Moreland is the better fielder.

 

Would you start Moreland vs RHPs more often vs RHPs? It's the better choice for improving our chances at winning? (Would HRam feel okay with the choice?)

 

What if HRam is at .800 vs RHPs, and Moeland's at .780? Moreland's defense probably makes up for the .020 in OPS?

 

Do you use OPS?

 

It's not really going to be a cut and dry choice, and I'm pretty sure HRam might view the ultimate choice differently, if he comes up short due to being benched for Moreland, regardless of the OPS differential and all the explaining that can be done.

 

I hope it turns out to be an easy choice, and we're probably arguing about the one scenario that won't happen, but if it's a close choice, the choice is obvious to me: keep HRam from 497.

 

If it's not that close, but somewhat close, then the debate can begin, IMO.

 

Right now, I'd start the season by sitting HRam vs about half the RH'd starters and let him convince me by doing better than Moreland & Swihart by a clear enough margin to overcome his defensive disparity with Moreland..

[jad]

I'm pretty sure Cora has been told just to play the best guys he has. Managing a team has to be difficult enough without having to go through the lucubrations we have here (since it's spring training--I assume we're all just filling up the air until the season starts [and with modern athletes--what's the point of a long ST? is it just to placate fans in Arizona and Fla?]). On a lighter note, anyone have any thoughts on JBJ's swing? (Ihaven't seen any games yet.) At .180, he seems on the way to having a predictably disappointing year. My recollection is that he generally burns it up in the spring. (Or is this just an example of his streaky hitting).

[kenmeister]

On a lighter note, anyone have any thoughts on JBJ's swing? (Ihaven't seen any games yet.) At .180, he seems on the way to having a predictably disappointing year. My recollection is that he generally burns it up in the spring. (Or is this just an example of his streaky hitting).

 

The good news is that if JBJ really does flame out, we just move Benitendi to CF, Martinez to LF, Ramirez to DH, and Moreland (or Sam Travis) gets to play 1B all the time.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm pretty sure Cora has been told just to play the best guys he has. Managing a team has to be difficult enough without having to go through the lucubrations we have here (since it's spring training--I assume we're all just filling up the air until the season starts [and with modern athletes--what's the point of a long ST? is it just to placate fans in Arizona and Fla?]). On a lighter note, anyone have any thoughts on JBJ's swing? (Ihaven't seen any games yet.) At .180, he seems on the way to having a predictably disappointing year. My recollection is that he generally burns it up in the spring. (Or is this just an example of his streaky hitting).

 

Pitchers certainly need some time to ramp up.

[S5Dewey]

--what's the point of a long ST? is it just to placate fans in Arizona and Fla?]).

 

I hate to appear cynical but Spring Training is a money printing machine. Tickets probably average about $30 A person and they sell about 10,000 of them to every game.

Their expenses are minimal - the county built them a stadium and the players salaries are under contract anyway - the "team store" is swamped with people who can't wait to buy $35 t-shirts & caps, and $8.50 beers flow like water.

Is that a good enough reason? 

[Bellhorn04]

I hate to appear cynical but Spring Training is a money printing machine. Tickets probably average about $30 A person and they sell about 10,000 of them to every game.

Their expenses are minimal - the county built them a stadium and the players salaries are under contract anyway - the "team store" is swamped with people who can't wait to buy $35 t-shirts & caps, and $8.50 beers flow like water.

Is that a good enough reason? 

 

Seems to me like everybody wins, once you accept that sports fans are nuts and people are suckers.

[moonslav59]

The good news is that if JBJ really does flame out, we just move Benitendi to CF, Martinez to LF, Ramirez to DH, and Moreland (or Sam Travis) gets to play 1B all the time.

 

...or Swihart.

[cp176]

Seems to me like everybody wins, once you accept that sports fans are nuts and people are suckers.

 

truer words have ...

[cp176]

For argument's sake, let's say by mid July, HRam is on pace for 500 PAs and just barely reaching his vesting option.

 

He's doing "decent" enough: .825 OPS, but he's .900 vs LHPs and .790 vs RHPs.

 

Moreland is doing pretty much the same and is at .790 vs RHPs. Moreland is the better fielder.

 

Would you start Moreland vs RHPs more often vs RHPs? It's the better choice for improving our chances at winning? (Would HRam feel okay with the choice?)

 

What if HRam is at .800 vs RHPs, and Moeland's at .780? Moreland's defense probably makes up for the .020 in OPS?

 

Do you use OPS?

 

It's not really going to be a cut and dry choice, and I'm pretty sure HRam might view the ultimate choice differently, if he comes up short due to being benched for Moreland, regardless of the OPS differential and all the explaining that can be done.

 

I hope it turns out to be an easy choice, and we're probably arguing about the one scenario that won't happen, but if it's a close choice, the choice is obvious to me: keep HRam from 497.

 

If it's not that close, but somewhat close, then the debate can begin, IMO.

 

Right now, I'd start the season by sitting HRam vs about half the RH'd starters and let him convince me by doing better than Moreland & Swihart by a clear enough margin to overcome his defensive disparity with Moreland..

 

Every point that you brought up here I think is an excellent one. I agree for the most part with what you have said. It will be interesting to see how Cora deals with the situation in general. I think that I like Moreland more than most here. By the end of May, I'm thinking that we will have a pretty good idea whether or not the option will vest. So many things will factor in and for the sake of everyone I hope that he is either well above or well below the needed at bats.

[Jasonbay44]

The good news is that if JBJ really does flame out, we just move Benitendi to CF, Martinez to LF, Ramirez to DH, and Moreland (or Sam Travis) gets to play 1B all the time.

 

JBJ would have to have a ridiculously awful year at the plate for him to be benched. His defense alone will always allow for him to stay in lineups.

[moonslav59]

Every point that you brought up here I think is an excellent one. I agree for the most part with what you have said. It will be interesting to see how Cora deals with the situation in general. I think that I like Moreland more than most here. By the end of May, I'm thinking that we will have a pretty good idea whether or not the option will vest. So many things will factor in and for the sake of everyone I hope that he is either well above or well below the needed at bats.

 

The worst thing might be a close call and a grumbling HRam as a distraction.

 

I, too, hope the choice ends up being an easy one (for the good, of course) for Cora.

[moonslav59]

JBJ would have to have a ridiculously awful year at the plate for him to be benched. His defense alone will always allow for him to stay in lineups.

 

True. He's already had some dreadful stretches and still keeps on playing full time.

[jad]

I hate to appear cynical but Spring Training is a money printing machine. Tickets probably average about $30 A person and they sell about 10,000 of them to every game.

Their expenses are minimal - the county built them a stadium and the players salaries are under contract anyway - the "team store" is swamped with people who can't wait to buy $35 t-shirts & caps, and $8.50 beers flow like water.

Is that a good enough reason? 

 

Not cynical at all! This answers my question. Perhaps because of my stupidity, it didn't occur to me that of course players are already paid and are essentially working for free. But I wonder if players ever grumble about this when the CBA comes up?

[cp176]

The worst thing might be a close call and a grumbling HRam as a distraction.

 

I, too, hope the choice ends up being an easy one (for the good, of course) for Cora.

 

If everybody slows down for a minute and just thinks about the ramifications of what happens if Hanley comes up 10 or 20 at bats shy of the magic number, it just doesn't look very good for the home team. No one is going to care about 22 million and very few will take the stand that Hanley didn't earn it and that they are all over paid to begin with. It would become a social media nightmare I'm afraid in this day and age. If he is injured or just isn't playing well, that is another matter. I'm predicting that one way or another it won't be close if he doesn't get enough at bats. Most people me included do not want his option to make it but for us to say no way is one thing and the reality I think is something entirely different.

[Kimmi]

The worst thing might be a close call and a grumbling HRam as a distraction.

 

I, too, hope the choice ends up being an easy one (for the good, of course) for Cora.

 

There has been no indication that Hanley will be grumbling about anything. He understands the situation.

[Kimmi]

If everybody slows down for a minute and just thinks about the ramifications of what happens if Hanley comes up 10 or 20 at bats shy of the magic number, it just doesn't look very good for the home team. No one is going to care about 22 million and very few will take the stand that Hanley didn't earn it and that they are all over paid to begin with. It would become a social media nightmare I'm afraid in this day and age. If he is injured or just isn't playing well, that is another matter. I'm predicting that one way or another it won't be close if he doesn't get enough at bats. Most people me included do not want his option to make it but for us to say no way is one thing and the reality I think is something entirely different.

 

I'm not concerned one way or the other about Hanley's option. It's a non factor for me, as it should be for Cora. I trust Cora to do the right thing.

[moonslav59]

There has been no indication that Hanley will be grumbling about anything. He understands the situation.

 

No, there hasn't, but if he fells like we are shorting him out of his vesting option, while he is playing well, I think it's safe to say no player would remain silent (justifiably so).