Stanton or Votto

[notin]

Skewed by one good playoff series against the Giants. He's an overrated choker.

 

Were you saying the same thing about Ortiz after his performances in the 2002 and 2003 post-seasons?

[notin]

It's not limited to this board.

 

MassLive columnist Jen McCaffrey suggests that the Twins and the Brewers, who this year made 26-win and 13-win improvements over 2016, trade some of their best players for Red Sox scraps:

 

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2017/10/boston_red_sox_potential_trade.html#incart_river_index

 

Its not just Sox fans. You can go to any team's board anywhere on the net and find horribly lopsided deals that only make sense for one team

[Dojji]

They had a nice core of cost-controlled players under team control for 3-4 years.

 

They chose to rebuild. It was not a slam-dunk decision.

 

They also have more spending capabilities than a team like Miami.

 

it was not a slam dunk decision, but Jacko's right, by trading Sale the Chisox clearly made the decision to rebuild, and thus were a rebuilding team. The definition feels a bit circular, but the team's actions bear out their depiction as rebuilding.

 

That's one of the reasons I think a team like the Royals would be a good one to try to trade with/poach from. They're clearly coming back to earth, I mean holy crap check their pythag this year, there's not so much cracks in the foundation as no foundation at all, especially if they lose their FAs

 

Either of Hosmer, Moustakas or Cain would be good additions to this lineup if we can grab them and I think they're *all* FAs. One of the prices they pay for winning the World Series by trying to time their core players to peak at the same time.

 

The fact that their 3 best hitters are all up for FA at the same time is a pretty good indication that nothing is sacred for the Royals right now and someone who offers a fair deal can pretty much take their pick. In their place the only guy I protect is Danny Duffy.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Dojji

[Slasher9]

Stanton.

Giancarlo Stanton.

Giancarlo Freakin' Stanton.

the preceding has been a public service announcement directed toward DD.

thank you.

[moonslav59]

it was not a slam dunk decision, but Jacko's right, by trading Sale the Chisox clearly made the decision to rebuild, and thus were a rebuilding team. The definition feels a bit circular, but the team's actions bear out their depiction as rebuilding.

 

My point was that people called me crazy for saying I felt the CWS should trade Sale, Quintana, Robertson and Frazier. I even suggested a trade where we got all of them. I was told over and over that they were not rebuilding, and I guess they weren't until they were (yes circular). That's all I'm saying.

 

On the Royals, yes they planned to go all out for a certain window. They planned for a cliff and should be in complete rebuilding mode- including Duffy.

 

I'll pass on Hosmer, and we already have 3 OF'ers, so Cain will go elsewhere.

 

I do have interest in Moustakas as a FA this winter.

[mvp 78]

Were you saying the same thing about Ortiz after his performances in the 2002 and 2003 post-seasons?

 

I didn't watch the 2002 postseason. I was happy with how Ortiz played against the Yankees in 2003.

[moonslav59]

I didn't watch the 2002 postseason. I was happy with how Ortiz played against the Yankees in 2003.

 

True, but he was 2 for 21 vs the A's that year (.317 OPS).

 

Amazingly, he then went 8 series in a row with an OPS over .900, including 5 straight over 1.080!

[Slasher9]

one of those hits was pretty damn big. huge.

[moonslav59]

one of those hits was pretty damn big. huge.

 

A whole lot were!

[Bellhorn04]

A whole lot were!

 

I believe Slash is referring to Papi's big hit off Keith Foulke in Game 4 of that series with Oakland where he was 2 for 21.

[a700hitter]

So we are going to engage in a debate whether Ortiz is clutch which will devolve into the equally absurd argument about clutch being nonexistent. Count me out of that dopiness this time. We are probably less than a month from DD getting us new toys. That's what I want to talk about.

[Slasher9]

I believe Slash is referring to Papi's big hit off Keith Foulke in Game 4 of that series with Oakland where he was 2 for 21.

 

Correct. And Manny went first to home on that hit.

[Larry Cook]

Reality check here! It is almost 2018.

 

Time to look forward, not back!

[Bellhorn04]

Reality check here! It is almost 2018.

 

Time to look forward, not back!

 

Looking forward, looking back, it's pretty easy to do both. It's just nice we have some really good stuff to look back on now.

[Slasher9]

just a reminder of your priority this offseason DD:

[Dojji]

There is no plausible way Giancarlo Stanton winds up in a Red Sox uniform. Absolutely none at all.

 

Just putting that out there to remind people. You can say "get Stanton" until you're blue in the face. He is not coming to Boston unless he hits FA. We've spent our resources elsewhere. We do not have the assets required to land such a player at this time.

 

Votto is more plausible if the Reds decide to rebuild, but he'd also be one of the last players I'd trade if I was Cincinnatti's GM and I had any thought of a fighting chance in the next few years. If I decided to trade Votto as Cinci, then what I got for Votto would determine whether I still had a job next year, so I'd be looking to bleed the buying team white.

 

Also even in Votto's case, the shot lockers are looking pretty empty to land a player of that caliber. What they need most is pitching and we don't have any to spare. So unless you think you can sell them Price to cover a large part of Votto's value, and that's a pretty ridiculous proposition on the face of it, "more plausible" and "actually plausible" are not the same thing in this case.

 

If we bring in any offensive upgrades, it will be by FA, and it will be a second tier player. Hosmer, Duda or Moustakas. That's what we can afford right now, so that's what's coming through that door. Not Stanton, not Votto.

 

Even with their warts every one of those players would represent an upgrade for us. Premium offensive talent is not coming to Boston right now so something in this stratum is what you can expect, and that's if we manage to win the bidding on one of these players. We might not.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

There is no plausible way Giancarlo Stanton winds up in a Red Sox uniform. Absolutely none at all.

 

Just putting that out there to remind people. You can say "get Stanton" until you're blue in the face. He is not coming to Boston unless he hits FA. We've spent our resources elsewhere. We do not have the assets required to land such a player at this time.

 

We do have what it takes.

 

We have the money.

 

We have Benintendi, who has already proven himself to be a solid player and potential star and who is not even eligible for arbitration until 2020.

 

The Sox could do it if they wanted. Whether this is the direction they want to go is another question.

[Dojji]

Benintendi alone isn't bringing Stanton if I'm the Marlins GM. What else ya got?

[Bellhorn04]

Benintendi alone isn't bringing Stanton if I'm the Marlins GM. What else ya got?

 

Benintendi + smaller parts could do it. Obviously it depends what other teams are offering. But only the richest teams are even in play.

[sk7326]

Benintendi alone isn't bringing Stanton if I'm the Marlins GM. What else ya got?

 

I suspect Benintendi. Groome and stuff will at least put them in the ballpark, especially if the Marlins care about the dumping salary thing. I am not sure I would do it - but that is a different question.

[Slasher9]

DD - do not listen to the naysayers on this thread. you have the pieces and the means to get this done.

Please do the needful. thank you.

[Nick]

To say we don't have the pieces is ludicrous.

 

Again, the way this team is constructed will not yield World Series championship. We need better balanced offense. Read POWER. Just look at how the games went in first two games thus far in w.s. It's too difficult to piece together bunch of hits. 3 singles in Fenway often does not score a run.

 

Simple thing to do is to give Martinez whatever he wants. But if there's a possibility of acquiring Stanton, DD has to go kick the tires. He's cheaper than Votto from luxury tax perspective. $25M per year on the tax hit is music to DD's ears.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Nick

[mvp 78]

True, but he was 2 for 21 vs the A's that year (.317 OPS).

 

Amazingly, he then went 8 series in a row with an OPS over .900, including 5 straight over 1.080!

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200310050.shtml

 

You're also misremembering the A's series as well. I think Ortiz played an integral part in winning game 4.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTVR2g61D50 Skip to 1:03:30

[Bellhorn04]

You're also misremembering the A's series as well. I think Ortiz played an integral part in winning game 4.

 

I am saddened that you overlooked the posts about this by Slash and myself.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

There is no plausible way Giancarlo Stanton winds up in a Red Sox uniform. Absolutely none at all.

 

 

I'm in general agreement. I'm assuming the Marlins will want one top notch prospect at least and the Red Sox don't have that. They would have to surrender either Devers or Benintendi but that kind of trade doesn't work for the Red Sox.

 

Maybe Bradley Jr. to another team for a prospect and then trade that prospect to the Marlins? That would be the Red Sox's best hope IMO. Overall, the Red Sox are limited in what they can do since Dombrowski already drained the farm system of top prospects. I also don't believe that Bogaerts has significant trade value at this time. The fact that Red Sox fans would like to ship out Bogaerts pretty much tells the whole story on his declining trade value.

 

I wouldn't give up valuable prospects for Stanton anyway, not when the Red Sox can get Machado in next year's free agency. Dombrowski has already tried the approach of trading the kids for established stars and it hasn't worked thus far. The established stars he traded for, Sale and Kimbrel, were responsible for the Red Sox's exit in the 2017 playoffs. Brilliant.

[Bellhorn04]

I wouldn't give up valuable prospects for Stanton anyway, not when the Red Sox can get Machado in next year's free agency. Dombrowski has already tried the approach of trading the kids for established stars and it hasn't worked thus far. The established stars he traded for, Sale and Kimbrel, were responsible for the Red Sox's exit in the 2017 playoffs. Brilliant.

 

Also largely responsible for the Red Sox's appearance in the 2017 playoffs...

[Dojji]

Also largely responsible for the Red Sox's appearance in the 2017 playoffs...

 

No complaints on either Sale or Kimbrel so far, but the fact remains that we blew our wad on those two in particular.

 

Groome is not a premium pitching prospect right now -- he has the potential to become one, but it's gonna take a few more years and a bit of luck.

 

We do not have an awful lot of ready or nearly-ready talent without ransacking our big league roster, and the price of a Stanton or a Votto is usually measured in exactly what we don't have -- high minors premium talent, usually from AA or AAA, who are ready to go right now and whose arb clock hasn't started, or has barely started. We don't have anyone like that right now outside of Devers, and Devers could be as big a thing as Stanton in a few years. Until we know one way or the other, he goes nowhere.

 

Anyone who thinks we can nab Giancarlo Stanton for one young outfielder and a bunch of A ball schlubs who need years of seasoning to get to the big show, hasn't been paying attention.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

Anyone who thinks we can nab Giancarlo Stanton for one young outfielder and a bunch of A ball schlubs who need years of seasoning to get to the big show, hasn't been paying attention.

 

The only reason Stanton's name is even being bandied about is that everyone knows the Marlins need to get his contract off their books.

 

And again only a few teams can afford to take on that contract.

[Dojji]

One interesting possibility that might warrant a slightly longer look, is Miguel Chavis. If we have a young player that's anywhere near the class that you'd look to trade premium talent for, it's probably Chavis. Unfortunately I think his ceiling isn't considered premium elite, but he's still performing at a high level at a young age, especially if he can make a bit more contact.

 

Chavis handled the transition to Portland reasonably well, but clearly has at least another year in development before you seriously consider moving him up.

 

And again, this WMB/Mark Reynolds redux is literally the best offensive prospect we have just now. That's sad. In a strong farm, he's maybe the #5, #6 prospect. In Boston he's #2 by most measurements, after Groome. That's how week our upper echelon is right now.

[Bellhorn04]

And again, this WMB/Mark Reynolds redux is literally the best offensive prospect we have just now. That's sad. In a strong farm, he's maybe the #5, #6 prospect. In Boston he's #2 by most measurements, after Groome. That's how week our upper echelon is right now.

 

Sure, it's weak, and that's mainly because of the trades, but it's also because Benintendi and Devers graduated young.