Stanton or Votto

[moonslav59]

Keeping Lackey one more year would not have made a difference.

 

Keeping Lester or signing Scherzer, instead of HRam & Pablo could have made a difference.

 

Keeping Peavy and Doubront would not have helped at all going forward.

 

I loved the Miller trade, but had hoped we signed him that winter.

 

The big screw up was the low ball offer to Lester. Once that was done, I think Ben was boxed into getting something for players he was going to lose anyways. I disagreed with some of the deals he ended up making, but I think the whole "blowing up the rotation" mantra is a bit of s stretch.

 

We needed hitting that winter, too. It's highly doubtful, we'd have won a ring by spending on Lester or Scherzer, keeping Lackey one more year and not having anything to spend on hitting. In hindsight, sure, sign Lester and Cruz and maybe we have a shot.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Keeping Lackey one more year would not have made a difference.

 

Keeping Lester or signing Scherzer, instead of HRam & Pablo could have made a difference.

 

Keeping Peavy and Doubront would not have helped at all going forward.

 

I loved the Miller trade, but had hoped we signed him that winter.

 

The big screw up was the low ball offer to Lester. Once that was done, I think Ben was boxed into getting something for players he was going to lose anyways. I disagreed with some of the deals he ended up making, but I think the whole "blowing up the rotation" mantra is a bit of s stretch.

 

We needed hitting that winter, too. It's highly doubtful, we'd have won a ring by spending on Lester or Scherzer, keeping Lackey one more year and not having anything to spend on hitting. In hindsight, sure, sign Lester and Cruz and maybe we have a shot.

 

 

Whether or not Ben blew up the rotation, the fact is that Dombrowski inherited a very bad pitching staff and no pitching prospects that were anywhere near ready to help.

 

He certainly may have overpaid on the Kimbrel trade.

 

But the point is, there was no way to fix the pitching except by depleting the farm.

[Slasher9]

Forget Moreland. I read that he is contemplating surgery himself.

 

that's not what DD says! FAKE NEWS. No Surgeries!

[Nick]

Whether or not Ben blew up the rotation, the fact is that Dombrowski inherited a very bad pitching staff and no pitching prospects that were anywhere near ready to help.

 

He certainly may have overpaid on the Kimbrel trade.

 

But the point is, there was no way to fix the pitching except by depleting the farm.

 

You are correct.

 

On the heels of two straight last place teams, what the hell do people on this board expected DD to do? Stand pat? For those arguing overspend on both Kimbrel and Price, you have NO IDEA what went on. Moon loves to talk about overpay on Kimbrel trade but if anyone here knows the exact spot where events turn, then YOU SHOULD BE A f***ING MILLIONAIRE BECAUSE YOU KNOW EXACT HIGH AND LOW POINT IN STOCK MARKET. Your FA bid should ALWAYS succeed because you are able to offer just 1 cent more than the next offer, assuring we don't ever overpay.

 

We overpaid for Castillo BECAUSE JUST A YEAR PRIOR, WE CAME IN SECOND PLACE IN ABREAU FA SIGNING. Sox were NOT going to be outbid the following year on another Cuban. International scouts obviously overvalued Castillo.

 

We won back to back Division Championships last two years. DD understands he was hired to win the World Series ring. He fired JF. Our luxury tax rate is reset. He is ready to change the composition of this team (which right now is not good enough to win it all as it is constructed).

Edited October 30, 2017 by Nick

[Spudboy]

The misfire on Castillo had potential to go bad from the beginning.

 

The guy was 27 or 28 or something like that.

 

He had not played organized ball in over 1 1/2 seasons.

 

No Sox scout or Exec had actually seen him play live. They had only viewed video of him in the WBC.

 

Then they made a massive commitment to the guy.

 

The potential for failure on this deal was all too obvious.

 

Poor decision made by ignorant staff based on insufficient information.

[moonslav59]

Teams go wrong evaluating veteran MLB players when signing free agents.

 

It's not some major surprise they go wrong on guys like Castillo.

 

It doesn't mean you stop looking for players and acquiring them based on a couple of failures.

 

We paid a lot for Moncada and got Sale for him (and others).

[Nick]

Teams go wrong evaluating veteran MLB players when signing free agents.

 

It's not some major surprise they go wrong on guys like Castillo.

 

It doesn't mean you stop looking for players and acquiring them based on a couple of failures.

 

We paid a lot for Moncada and got Sale for him (and others).

 

My view is only few minor league players succeed in majors. Any time you can get a 'sure' thing, Sale and Kimbrel, you do it even if you have to give up future talent.

[a700hitter]

The misfire on Castillo had potential to go bad from the beginning.

 

The guy was 27 or 28 or something like that.

 

He had not played organized ball in over 1 1/2 seasons.

 

No Sox scout or Exec had actually seen him play live. They had only viewed video of him in the WBC.

 

Then they made a massive commitment to the guy.

 

The potential for failure on this deal was all too obvious.

 

Poor decision made by ignorant staff based on insufficient information.

And this one was all Ben, not LL.

[Spudboy]

Teams go wrong evaluating veteran MLB players when signing free agents.

 

It's not some major surprise they go wrong on guys like Castillo.

 

It doesn't mean you stop looking for players and acquiring them based on a couple of failures.

 

We paid a lot for Moncada and got Sale for him (and others).

 

Where did I say the Sox should stop looking for players?

 

They f***ed up bigly on this one. That is what I said.

[moonslav59]

Where did I say the Sox should stop looking for players?

 

They f***ed up bigly on this one. That is what I said.

 

Where did I say you said we need to stop looking?

 

Mistakes are made on players we see every day. They are also made on players they only had film on. Sometimes teams strike gold- like Abreu and Maeda.

 

I'm sorry, if it sounded like I was saying you thought we should stop taking chances on signing players.

[moonslav59]

And this one was all Ben, not LL.

 

How do we ever know for sure?

 

To me, it's just easier to blame or praise the whole organization, and if you want to pin it on one guy, then blame/praise just the GM.

[a700hitter]

How do we ever know for sure?

 

To me, it's just easier to blame or praise the whole organization, and if you want to pin it on one guy, then blame/praise just the GM.

If we can give him a pass on certain deals, we can pin certain deals on him.

[moonslav59]

If we can give him a pass on certain deals, we can pin certain deals on him.

 

But, how do we know for sure what was mostly Larry or Theo or Larry or Ben?

 

I prefer to either blame or praise the whole organization or just blame the GM for everything- good and bad. This walking the fine line and blaming one for this and the other for that is just conjecture until you have both people admitting it was a certain way. Maybe I missed something, but I've never heard bot sides agree on who was to blame or praise for certain moves.

[a700hitter]

But, how do we know for sure what was mostly Larry or Theo or Larry or Ben?

 

I prefer to either blame or praise the whole organization or just blame the GM for everything- good and bad. This walking the fine line and blaming one for this and the other for that is just conjecture until you have both people admitting it was a certain way. Maybe I missed something, but I've never heard bot sides agree on who was to blame or praise for certain moves.

We don't. He was the GM and these deals were all his responsibility, so it all sits with him.

[Slasher9]

We don't. He was the GM and these deals were all his responsibility, so it all sits with him.

 

Boston Red Sox:

Ben = 1 parade

DD = 0 parade

[a700hitter]

Boston Red Sox:

Ben = 1 parade

DD = 0 parade

He gets credit and blame.

[notin]

He is ready to change the composition of this team (which right now is not good enough to win it all as it is constructed).

 

Sure it is. This type of quote means nothing, especially when its supported.

 

Just because a team doesn't win it all doesn't mean they could not have.

 

Yes they did not hit home runs. But this was built to be a pitching first team that went through most of the season without one of its best pitchers. Don't underestimate what Price's injury meant...

[moonslav59]

We don't. He was the GM and these deals were all his responsibility, so it all sits with him.

 

You just said "passes can be given" and other certain deals can be "pinned" on him.

 

I'm all for giving all praise and criticism on the GM.

 

I'm okay with putting it all on the organization as a whole.

 

I just find the splitting of the blame speculative and ultimately non-prove-able.

[a700hitter]

You just said "passes can be given" and other certain deals can be "pinned" on him.

 

I'm all for giving all praise and criticism on the GM.

 

I'm okay with putting it all on the organization as a whole.

 

I didn't say that I gave him a pass. I said "if we can give him a pass". I don't give any GM a pass on any deal he signs off on. Only one GM that I know had the stones to say that he opposed a deal. Brian Cashman publicly opposed a signing -- for Chapman I think.

Edited October 31, 2017 by a700hitter

[Spudboy]

Where did I say you said we need to stop looking?

 

Mistakes are made on players we see every day. They are also made on players they only had film on. Sometimes teams strike gold- like Abreu and Maeda.

 

I'm sorry, if it sounded like I was saying you thought we should stop taking chances on signing players.

 

Post 216 Pops.

[Spudboy]

If we can give him a pass on certain deals, we can pin certain deals on him.

 

Face it. There are at least two people on this board that like to bag lap Ben and Theo. They did no wrong!

 

Then there are objective people who are not afraid to question the two Deities.

[Spudboy]

We don't. He was the GM and these deals were all his responsibility, so it all sits with him.

 

That is correct. That is how it goes.

[Spudboy]

Boston Red Sox:

Ben = 1 parade

DD = 0 parade

 

Ben = 3 last place finishes

 

DD = 0 last place finishes

Edited October 31, 2017 by Spudboy

[a700hitter]

Face it. There are at least two people on this board that like to bag lap Ben and Theo. They did no wrong!

 

Then there are objective people who are not afraid to question the two Deities.

I can understand the admiration of Theo as has been highly successful for an extended period for 2 franchises, but no one is offering Ben a GM job and I don't expect that he will get a GM job anytime soon.

[a700hitter]

Ben = 2 last place finishes

 

DD = 0 last place finishes

3 last place finishes. Let's not sell Ben short.

[Spudboy]

[/b]I didn't say that I gave him a pass. I said "if we can give him a pass". I don't give any GM a pass on any deal he signs off on. Only one GM that I know had the stones to say that he opposed a deal. Brian Cashman publicly opposed a signing -- for Chapman I think.

 

Maybe if you post in bold text Moon won't misquote you so much!

[Spudboy]

3 last place finishes. Let's not sell Ben short.

 

f***! I was not sure.

 

Balls. I'll edit it straight away!

[a700hitter]

Maybe if you post in bold text Moon won't misquote you so much!

Good point if he can't see what he is typing, how can he read my posts?

[Spudboy]

Good point if he can't see what he is typing, how can he read my posts?

 

Yeah, something like that!

[Jack Flap]

I don't know how this turned into the umpteenth rehashing of Cherington, Dombrowski, and their various deals and decisions...but anyways...

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/10/marlins-hope-to-trade-stanton-gordon-prado.html

 

The most interesting nugget here, I thought, is the speculation that "the team’s reported intentions perhaps hint that the focus could be on moving all of Stanton’s salary rather than maximizing the prospect return." Daunting though Stanton's contract may appear, I'd take it on in a moment if we didn't have to empty what's left of the farm and/or pillage key pieces from the major league roster to get him. The cost in talent will make all the difference...we'll see...