Fire alex cora

[jung]

And I get he didn’t have the same resources. Limited budget. No farm.

 

But he’s been a GM for a long time. Certainly this has come up before in his career at some point. He must have some experience to draw from...

 

DD is drawing on his experience. This is his MO: Empty the owners bank account. Empty the farm system. Hope it pays off. AND THEN WHAT?

 

Whether it has paid off or not, DD's MO has been to go back to the owner for more money because the owner cannot mystically build DD a new farm system and guess what....Neither can DD. Suppose the owner feels like he has given DD enough money? Do you think Henry has given DD enough money? I DO!

 

DD did his job here. TIME TO GO. Let him be a lame duck for 2020. If he makes moves that pay off with limited money and no farm system to speak of extend DD if Henry wants to....if not....he should be on his way and Henry needs to bring in somebody that CAN rebuild.

[notin]

Rather have a retool than a rebuild.

 

Might take a gutsy move like dealing Betts - or maybe a gutsier one like dealing Devers - but I want the Sox to be competitive again in 2020....

[jung]

Rather have a retool than a rebuild.

 

Might take a gutsy move like dealing Betts - or maybe a gutsier one like dealing Devers - but I want the Sox to be competitive again in 2020....

 

DD's blind spot is relief pitchers v Starters. He might be able to retool for 2020 but he will do it the only way he knows how to do it and that blind spot of his has grown so large that he is standing in the middle of the road and the road grader is about to come along and make him part of the pavement.

[TylerD]

Rather have a retool than a rebuild.

 

Might take a gutsy move like dealing Betts - or maybe a gutsier one like dealing Devers - but I want the Sox to be competitive again in 2020....

 

We have enough talent. Just need pitching.

 

Price moved to Paternity list.

[moonslav59]

Unless we are willing to have a sell off and or down year or two , it will be nearly impossible for DD or any new GM to rebuild in a short time. The system is now rigged against teams like ours.

[moonslav59]

DD is drawing on his experience. This is his MO: Empty the owners bank account. Empty the farm system. Hope it pays off. AND THEN WHAT?

 

Whether it has paid off or not, DD's MO has been to go back to the owner for more money because the owner cannot mystically build DD a new farm system and guess what....Neither can DD. Suppose the owner feels like he has given DD enough money? Do you think Henry has given DD enough money? I DO!

 

DD did his job here. TIME TO GO. Let him be a lame duck for 2020. If he makes moves that pay off with limited money and no farm system to speak of extend DD if Henry wants to....if not....he should be on his way and Henry needs to bring in somebody that CAN rebuild.

 

Nobody can rebuild with only low draft picks, limited international money and tax penalties up the wazoo

[jung]

Unless we are willing to have a sell off and or down year or two , it will be nearly impossible for DD or any new GM to rebuild in a short time. The system is now rigged against teams like ours.

 

No its not. The system is now designed to prevent teams like ours from simply steamrolling over the rest of baseball swinging a big monetary wrecking ball. Thats all. In fact, you can still print money to a Series win but now you are gonna' have a heck of a hangover from the celebratory party if you used money as a wrecking ball to get there.

 

But Henry knew that when he hired DD and he knew what DD would do and how he would do it. So OK....now what?

 

Its dynasties and even repeat champions that will be hard to come up with and that are hard to come up with now. Best you probably get is something like SF did a few years ago and what Houston is likely to do in 2017 and possibly this year.

 

As for the players I don't want to see the kind of nonsense I am seeing in these last few games from the players. They are showing signs of caving, crumbling, playing like a bunch of stiffs. Then I want to see the entire organization do a reset for 2020 and come back with an entirely different attitude than they had this year and lets see if we can pull off two wins in alternate years. Beyond 2020, IMO Henry will need somebody other than DD to run Baseball Ops.

[moonslav59]

No itus not. The system is now designed to prevent teams like ours from simply steamrolling over the rest of baseball swinging a big monetary wrecking ball. Thats all. In fact, you can still print money to a Series win but now you are gonna' have a heck of a hangover from the celebratory party if you used money as a wrecking ball to get there.

 

But Henry knew that when he hired DD and he knew what DD would do and how he would do it. So OK....now what?

 

Its dynasties and even repeat champions that will be hard to come up with and that are hard to come up with now. Best you probably get is something like SF did a few years ago and what Houston is likely to do in 2017 and possibly this year.

 

As for the players I don't want to see the kind of nonsense I am seeing in these last few games from the players. They are showing signs of caving, crumbling, playing like a bunch of stiffs. Then I want to see the entire organization do a reset for 2020 and come back with an entirely different attitude than they had this year and lets see if we can pull off two wins in alternate years. Beyond 2020, IMO Henry will need somebody other than DD to run Baseball Ops.

 

I stand by my position. We'll need to be bad to get good again. It's nearly impossible to keep spending to fill all holes. We need some cheap youth, and the system makes it VERY hard to rebuild the farm while winning and spending to the penalty phases every year.

[jung]

I stand by my position. We'll need to be bad to get good again. It's nearly impossible to keep spending to fill all holes. We need some cheap youth, and the system makes it VERY hard to rebuild the farm while winning and spending to the penalty phases every year.

 

Does not the change the fact that DD is not the guy you want to rebuild...maybe....MAYBE retool for a year but not rebuild. If rebuild is in order then a new President of Baseball Ops is in order. They might be able to get by with this core with some retooling for 2020. But after that IT WILL be rebuild and that is not DD.

 

I don't want to get trapped in a circular argument or discussion which is where this appears to be going. Yes, it requires money from the owner and a farm system to rebuild. High draft picks will get you there sooner although I do not like how quickly those draft picks tend to be moved up to the ML club. Scholastic athletics no matter how rigorous are not professional athletics. We now keep pushing kids up through these systems so we can market them at the ML level when they are barely shaving which tells me something about the bad marketing position MLB has painted itself into. In any event, a franchise needs to be able to make trades that bring its minor league system suitable candidates for their ML effort. You won't do all of it with even high draft picks.

 

None of that skill set represents DD strong points. He spends the owners money and he spends the franchises farm system. He does it quickly and with little regard for whether or not he is overpaying or not. That is what DD does and that is what he did here. We got a Series win for his efforts. But I would be strongly opposed to leaving him in charge of a rebuild. It is just not his strong suit, by a long shot.

 

Frankly the biggest frustration with the 2019 Sox is that the Yankmees are not a great team...they are barely a good team. Any kind of push from the Sox would have pushed that team over....RIGHT OVER. That is one reason I can believe retooling for a 2020 run might work out. We might not have gotten past the Rays which is fairly odious since that would mean being beaten by a $65M payroll. But we should have been able to push the Yankmees right over.

 

The Astros if NY even gets to them are going to rip them a new *******.

Edited August 3, 2019 by jung

[Bellhorn04]

Frankly the biggest frustration with the 2019 Sox is that the Yankmees are not a great team...they are barely a good team. Any kind of push from the Sox would have pushed that team over....RIGHT OVER. That is one reason I can believe retooling for a 2020 run might work out. We might not have gotten past the Rays which is fairly odious since that would mean being beaten by a $65M payroll. But we should have been able to push the Yankmees right over.

 

The Astros if NY even gets to them are going to rip them a new *******.

 

That's just really silly, jung. The last thing I want to do is praise the Yanks, but they won 100 last year and they're on pace to do the same this year in spite of a ridiculous number of injuries to key players.

 

They played the Stros tight this year. Houston won 4 of 7 with a run differential of +2.

 

The Yanks are 12-5 against the Rays and 4-2 against the Twins, and of course 8-4 against us. So they're playing well against the other good teams.

[Larry33]

Nobody can rebuild with only low draft picks, limited international money and tax penalties up the wazoo

 

The Red Sox became a franchise like the Yankees once were spending on astronomical large sums of money on contracts for proven players,selling off high talented prospects to finance a championship. Now older the high accoladed veterans past their greatest years the organization is left with nothing but a handful of bad unrecoupable contracts and a decimated farm system to boot. Like mentioned above with the conditions the road to success could be very long a bumpy road ahead for many years. There's different ways to reach a championship as we are witnessing with so many teams today with restraint and investment the Red Sox choices could very well be a bitter pill swallow for many years to come.

[oldtimer]

All but the most optimistic fans have accepted that the team will not make even the WC slot this year. Most agree that the starting pitching is not getting the job done and the relief pitching quality is no better than average and that they have been overworked due to the starters not doing their job well enough.

 

The discussion really should shift to what the heck should be done going forward and perhaps who should lead the team in that endeavor. Both discussions are now turning up, even in this thread.

 

I remain in the corner of trying to field a competitive team in 2020 rather than blowing everything up. Clearly we have some underperforming contracts that will continue to weigh us down for quite a few years. I'm speaking of Price, Sale and Pedroia, and it is a legitimate question to ask whether the DD is the right guy to turn the team around given his history in these contracts.

 

Who should we keep?

 

The younger core position players and pitchers: Bogaerts, Devers, Beni, Vaz, E-Rod, Hernandez (both)

 

Who are we on the fence with or have situations beyond our control with?

 

Betts who would be a young core players for us provided he doesn't insist on the contract length and $ amount beyond his true value. Martinez because he is a possible opt out.

Who are not young, core players but probably keepers?

 

Holt, Eovaldi, Workman, Barnes

 

Beyond those, many should be gone.

 

Moreland (too fragile for the buck), Pearce, Leon, Bradley (too much $ for performance), Hembree, Porcello (Too much $ for performance)

 

Others not clearly needing to be moved:

 

Chavis (low cost with possibility of improvement), Travis (lower cost fill in player), parts of BP.

 

What to do about management:

 

The question of whether DD is the right guy to try to rebuild the farm system and to reset the payroll while maintaining a competitive team is a good one. I favor changing him after this season.

The question of whether Cora and his coaching staff are the ones to drive this team forward is also legitimate. I am not convinced his style is the best but would stay with him for the time being.

[Kimmi]

There should be no thought of firing Cora . But please stop anointing him as the greatest .

 

I am pretty sure that there is only one poster who anointed him as such.

[Kimmi]

no red sox team in history has finished first three consecutive years. Ben's farm did that. He must know what he is doing.

 

ftfy

[Kimmi]

A lot of things went right, last year. We have a few things going right this year (Devers, Bogey, Vaz & Workman), but it has not been enough to offset all that has gone wrong.

 

Here are a few "wrong" things worth mentioning:

 

1) The starting rotation was supposed to be a strength- possibly top 3-5 in MLB.

2) The pen has done a lot right (in terms of what was expected) but has failed by blowing too many saves.

3) The defense, except for Devers has slipped a bit.

4) Performance decline by Betts, JD and others, especially when needed most.

5) Mistakes by DD, Cora, coaches, players and even the umps seem to have happened at the worst times.

6) Too many "snake bite" games.

 

So, where do we go from here?

 

Our farm is weak, and the best of our farm are 2-4 years away.

 

Our budget is tapped out, and we are maxing out on taxes, because we have gone over the limit in consecutive seasons.

 

We are losing some dead and near dead salary this winter (Pablo & Porcello) and next (Castillo), but with arb raises and 5 high priced players on the roll, our hands will be tied, unless we keep going over the second or third tax line year after year.

 

The league has made it much more difficult for winning and high-spending teams to build their farms up. We have been both winners and spenders for several years in a row, so in my opinion, we will need to pick a time to reset the tax and maybe right off a season or two to get some decent draft picks and international free agents.

 

I've lived through decades of frustration and incompetence. I'm okay with needing a year or two to regroup, but I worry trying to play it "half way" might make it next to impossible to build the farm to a point where it can get us to the promise land once again. Let's not forget, although we did need some FA help to win all these rings, the core of homegrown players were essential to each ring season.

 

If anybody thinks Chavis, Dalbec, Marco, DHern and others are similar to the prospects that came up from 2002 to 2016 or that were traded for pieces that helped us win in 2018, I think you may be in for a rude awakening. Just my opinion.

 

You and I have been on the same page since the beginning with most of what you said here.

 

I think most people agree that building a strong franchise starts with the farm system. I hate that Dombrowski depleted our farm from being one of the best in baseball to being one of the worst in about 2 short years. The only way to overcome that and to stay competitive is to spend like drunken sailors, which Henry has done, but even he will not spend without limit. Nor should he.

 

I thought for a very brief time that the cliff might not come because it sounded like Henry was willing to keep incurring those heavy tax penalties. It no longer sounds like he is willing to do so.

 

We need to reset the tax and rebuild the farm. That does not necessarily mean being non-competitive if the right moves are made.

 

Also, we both agree that the moves Dombrowski made were worth it because it brought us a championship. It sure does stink, though, having our hands tied in terms of what we can do right now.

[Kimmi]

I think so too. And Cora was his hand-picked manager, let's not forget.

 

Dombrowski gets high marks for Cora.

 

Also, he gets high marks for pretty much everything he has done beginning with 2018.

[Kimmi]

It’s ok to be built on SP, but that doesn’t justify ignoring the bullpen.

 

Since the WS, the Sox have lost Kimbrel and Kelly from the bullpen and the only relievers added since were Brewer and Taylor. I like that he went out for a bunch of minor league FA, but that has amounted to 0 IP in Boston this year.

 

And as I’ve been saying way too often, I don’t get why he ignored the bullpen with his limited resources to focus on backup 1b. I didn’t know at the time how little financial wiggle room he had, but I very hope he knew...

 

I don't think he ignored the pen. He just didn't sign any big name guys like most people wanted. While it looks bad now, I have no issues with Dombrowski signing Pearce over an expensive reliever.

 

Again, we will have to disagree on this philosophy.

[Kimmi]

D.D. won three straight A.L. East titles by being aggressive. This year , for some reason , he stopped being aggressive.

 

When your team is pretty much set, there is no reason to be aggressive.

 

It doesn't make sense to make moves just for the sake of making moves. There was not a whole lot of room for improvement.

[jacksonianmarch]

When your team is pretty much set, there is no reason to be aggressive.

 

It doesn't make sense to make moves just for the sake of making moves. There was not a whole lot of room for improvement.

 

Everyone knew your team wasn't set. Everyone knew your pen was a dumpster fire. DD made moves with his heart and not his head this offseason

[Kimmi]

Everyone knew your team wasn't set. Everyone knew your pen was a dumpster fire. DD made moves with his heart and not his head this offseason

 

The pen is only a dumpster fire because of the inability of the starters to do what they were supposed to do. There is a big difference in what a pen can do when the starter regularly goes 6+ innings versus less than 5 innings. And in some games when the starters did go deeper, they gave up 5 runs in the process.

[jacksonianmarch]

The pen is only a dumpster fire because of the inability of the starters to do what they were supposed to do. There is a big difference in what a pen can do when the starter regularly goes 6+ innings versus less than 5 innings. And in some games when the starters did go deeper, they gave up 5 runs in the process.

 

The sox were leading the league in blown saves for awhile, so it isn't like they didn't get leads

[dgalehouse]

As expected , the bullpen has been a problem all season . The rotation being a problem is , at least somewhat , unexpected. Edited August 3, 2019 by dgalehouse

[oldtimer]

The pen is only a dumpster fire because of the inability of the starters to do what they were supposed to do. There is a big difference in what a pen can do when the starter regularly goes 6+ innings versus less than 5 innings. And in some games when the starters did go deeper, they gave up 5 runs in the process.

 

Yes, but DD set up the long term contracts with Sale and Price. That led us to a WS last year, but I thought your approach to long term contracts is similar to mine. In the case of pitchers with a lot of mileage, the smart money is given in shorter contracts so that the club doesn't suffer for years when the pitchers start to decline.

[Kimmi]

The sox were leading the league in blown saves for awhile, so it isn't like they didn't get leads

 

1. Yes, they got leads. But the pen was often expected to hold small leads for 4+ innings. Obviously, that will lead to more blown saves. Remember that all blown holds are counted as blown saves.

 

2. The pen was overused, which makes them less effective. They have pitched far more innings this year than they had at the same point last year. If they were not so worn out, which essentially began the first week of the season, some of those blown saves might not have happened.

 

3. Last year, our starters went deeper and our offense tacked on. That's not happening consistently this year, which leads to not only to misuse of the pen, but putting the pen in many more high leverage and stressful situations.

 

I'm not saying our pen has been great, but I honestly believe that if the starters pitched like they did last season, the pen would be a non-issue.

[Kimmi]

Yes, but DD set up the long term contracts with Sale and Price. That led us to a WS last year, but I thought your approach to long term contracts is similar to mine. In the case of pitchers with a lot of mileage, the smart money is given in shorter contracts so that the club doesn't suffer for years when the pitchers start to decline.

 

I 100% agree with you about long term contracts. I did not like the Price contract at all, and while I wanted Sale extended, the length of the extension is too long. I don't necessarily agree with the "you get what you pay for" philosophy. I understand that sometimes it can't be avoided, but signing big free agent contracts really should be the exception, not the norm.

[notin]

Yes, but DD set up the long term contracts with Sale and Price. That led us to a WS last year, but I thought your approach to long term contracts is similar to mine. In the case of pitchers with a lot of mileage, the smart money is given in shorter contracts so that the club doesn't suffer for years when the pitchers start to decline.

 

Sale’s contract was after the World Series.

[FredLynn]

1. Yes, they got leads. But the pen was often expected to hold small leads for 4+ innings. Obviously, that will lead to more blown saves. Remember that all blown holds are counted as blown saves.

 

2. The pen was overused, which makes them less effective. They have pitched far more innings this year than they had at the same point last year. If they were not so worn out, which essentially began the first week of the season, some of those blown saves might not have happened.

 

3. Last year, our starters went deeper and our offense tacked on. That's not happening consistently this year, which leads to not only to misuse of the pen, but putting the pen in many more high leverage and stressful situations.

 

I'm not saying our pen has been great, but I honestly believe that if the starters pitched like they did last season, the pen would be a non-issue.

 

The pen was less "overused" than the Yankee pen or the Rays pen and only slightly more "overused" than the A's pen. Its just that our pen stunk relative to the playoff contenders. Its very simply a performance issue.

[jacksonianmarch]

The pen was less "overused" than the Yankee pen or the Rays pen and only slightly more "overused" than the A's pen. Its just that our pen stunk relative to the playoff contenders. Its very simply a performance issue.

 

Just an FYI, you cannot read into the Rays and Yanks "pen" numbers. With how many openers and bulk guys the Yanks and Rays have used, the designation is incorrect. The second pitcher in any opener game should be counted as the starter. Heck, the Rays will start a guy who throws 1.1IP and then bring in a guy like Yarborough who finishes the game out, yet 7.2IP was designated to the pen

[Kimmi]

The pen was less "overused" than the Yankee pen or the Rays pen and only slightly more "overused" than the A's pen. Its just that our pen stunk relative to the playoff contenders. Its very simply a performance issue.

 

The Yankees were built on the strength of their pen though, not their rotation. The Sox were built on the strength of their rotation who was supposed to carry a mediocre pen.

 

When I just 2-3 weeks ago, the Sox pen had already thrown 50+ more innings than they had last year at the same point, and it hasn't gotten any better since then. You cannot overuse and misuse a pen and expect them to be good.

[Slasher9]