Fire alex cora

[SCM33]

It all depends on timing. If they pitch 5 scoreless the night before, it's a bad post. If they blow the game the night before, it's a great post

 

It doesnt depend on timing, theyve sucked all year.

[Elktonnick]

For those who anoint the Red Sox current incumbent manager their greatest of all time would do well to remember that John Stahl, Ed Barrow, Dick Williams, Terry Francona and John Farrell all won either the Pennant or world titles their first year as Sox skipper. In recent memory Williams, Francona and Farrell were all fired, unceremoniously. I would wait a bit longer than one season before I would designate any manager the best in a lifetime as history has shown that the fall from grace can be somewhat swift and sudden.

[Bellhorn04]

For those who anoint the Red Sox current incumbent manager their greatest of all time would do well to remember that John Stahl, Ed Barrow, Dick Williams, Terry Francona and John Farrell all won either the Pennant or world titles their first year as Sox skipper. In recent memory Williams, Francona and Farrell were all fired, unceremoniously. I would wait a bit longer than one season before I would designate any manager the best in a lifetime as history has shown that the fall from grace can be somewhat swift and sudden.

 

For the record, the only person on the whole forum who has said Cora is the greatest Red Sox manager of all time is moonslav.

[a700hitter]

This isn't reversion to the mean at all. This team is not performing up to their talent level so far this season. Last season was a perfect storm of great performances, and this was also a team that had taken the division for three seasons in a row. Two of those seasons were with the supposedly mediocre managing of John Farrell. I have no reason as to why this season has been mediocre at best as far as winning games, but I can't pin it on Cora.

It can be pinned directly on Cora. He was handed the exact same team as last season that dominated baseball. This is all attributable to his monstrously stupid lack of preparation for his pitchers. These guys were not ready for the regular season until the end of April. By that time, the team had dug itself a huge hole. It set the tone in a negative direction every bit as much as the fast start in 2018 set a positive tone. This is not an anomaly. The team was not prepared to start the season.

[Elktonnick]

For the record, the only person on the whole forum who has said Cora is the greatest Red Sox manager of all time is moonslav.

 

I know

[Elktonnick]

It can be pinned directly on Cora. He was handed the exact same team as last season that dominated baseball. This is all attributable to his monstrously stupid lack of preparation for his pitchers. These guys were not ready for the regular season until the end of April. By that time, the team had dug itself a huge hole. It set the tone in a negative direction every bit as much as the fast start in 2018 set a positive tone. This is not an anomaly. The team was not prepared to start the season.

 

You are 100% correct. Worse than that the ill preparation sent the implicit message to his position players to take it easy because they need their rest. I have never seen a professional manager in any sport who preaches the philosophy of rest over preparation and toughness as much as the current incumbent manager of the Red Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

You are 100% correct. Worse than that the ill preparation sent the implicit message to his position players to take it easy because they need their rest. I have never seen a professional manager in any sport who preaches the philosophy of rest over preparation and toughness as much as the current incumbent manager of the Red Sox.

 

His methods worked pretty well in 2018. I think they looked quite ready for the playoffs last year.

[a700hitter]

You are 100% correct. Worse than that the ill preparation sent the implicit message to his position players to take it easy because they need their rest. I have never seen a professional manager in any sport who preaches the philosophy of rest over preparation and toughness as much as the current incumbent manager of the Red Sox.

Cora blew up the season unless these guys can kick it into gear go on a run and get some luck along the way. In order to make the run necessary to take the Division in 2019, Cora is going to have to ride his horses hard. The opportunity for rest has come and gone. He gave them April off. Now, he has to ride them every day. And guess what , come September they will be banged up. There is just no avoiding the grueling effects of the season. Maybe Cora didn’t understand that because he was always a backup player.

[a700hitter]

His methods worked pretty well in 2018. I think they looked quite ready for the playoffs last year.

He had his team ready to come out of the gate strong in 2018. They built up a lead and had the opportunity to rest guys. This season he arrogantly thought they would rush out of the gate without being prepared. Rest is not needed at the start of the season. It is needed during the season. That opportunity is now gone.

[Elktonnick]

He had his team ready to come out of the gate strong in 2018. They built up a lead and had the opportunity to rest guys. This season he arrogantly thought they would rush out of the gate without being prepared. Rest is not needed at the start of the season. It is needed during the season. That opportunity is now gone.

 

Nothing is ever accomplished without a solid foundation. I think your analysis is spot on.

 

The current manager had the benefit of a team built up to win. It wasn't a team that he built or molded. He was just lucky to be given the helm and he brought home a winner. Hooray for him. However, I think the events of this year showed just how ordinary the current manager is. I don't think he can hold a candle to many past Red Sox managers. I fully expect he will be well gone and forgotten before the Red Sox are lucky enough to win another world series.

[Bellhorn04]

Nothing is ever accomplished without a solid foundation. I think your analysis is spot on.

 

The current manager had the benefit of a team built up to win. It wasn't a team that he built or molded.

 

Baseball managers don't build teams. You're thinking of the NFL and guys like Belichick.

[Elktonnick]

Baseball managers don't build teams. You're thinking of the NFL and guys like Belichick.

 

I guess you have never managed or coached. I use build in the much broader sense of the term. General managers and VP of baseball operations assemble players. Baseball managers build and mold them into a team.

[Bellhorn04]

I guess you have never managed or coached. I use build in the much broader sense of the term. General managers and VP of baseball operations assemble players. Baseball managers build and mold them into a team.

 

So why are you not giving Cora credit for building the 2018 team then? They went from 93 wins and a first-round exit to 108 wins and a World Series.

 

It's obvious you just have it in for Cora and will use any argument you can stitch together, with no regard for logic or consistency.

[a700hitter]

So why are you not giving Cora credit for building the 2018 team then? They went from 93 wins and a first-round exit to 108 wins and a World Series.

 

It's obvious you just have it in for Cora and will use any argument you can stitch together, with no regard for logic or consistency.

Cora gets tremendous credit for last season. He struck the right tone. He had his team ready to play and his in game skills were excellent. This year he made a major mess up out of the gate and he can’t get the team back on track. Even if he does get them back on track there is no avoiding the fact that he sacrificed the first 5 weeks of the season. After opening day 2018, I never uttered a critical word about Cora, but in all fairness, this season is on him just as much as last season was a credit to him.

[notin]

So why are you not giving Cora credit for building the 2018 team then? They went from 93 wins and a first-round exit to 108 wins and a World Series.

 

It's obvious you just have it in for Cora and will use any argument you can stitch together, with no regard for logic or consistency.

 

Bottom line - it is on Cora that this team was so lackluster (to be kind) coming out of the gate for what we all knew was a difficult road trip to start the season. That they have improved so much since then really just supports this...

[illinoisredsox]

You are 100% correct. Worse than that the ill preparation sent the implicit message to his position players to take it easy because they need their rest. I have never seen a professional manager in any sport who preaches the philosophy of rest over preparation and toughness as much as the current incumbent manager of the Red Sox.

 

The rest crticism thing is way overblown; Cora is not resting the position players nearly as much as most seem to think he is.

 

The Sox have played 56 games. Starts by the regular position players:

 

Benintendi - 49 (IIRC, he missed 3 games in April after fouling a ball off his foot and wasn't available) So basically, 49/53.

Betts - 54

Bogaerts - 53

Bradley Jr. - 46 (hasn't started a few times against lefties, understandable)

Devers - 53

Martinez - 48 (back and flu over the last couple weeks)

Moreland - 39 (ideally he'd be platooning with Pearce and now on IL with a back issue)

Vazquez - 39 (35 starts as a catcher meaning he's played 2/3 of the time as a catcher plus a handful at DH)

 

Second base has been in total flux all season with no real regular.

 

Chavis has started 34 of the 37 games he's been in the majors for.

 

It's not like these guys are getting 2 days off a week (except for Vazquez which for a catcher is about right)

Edited May 31, 2019 by illinoisredsox

[Elktonnick]

So why are you not giving Cora credit for building the 2018 team then? They went from 93 wins and a first-round exit to 108 wins and a World Series.

 

It's obvious you just have it in for Cora and will use any argument you can stitch together, with no regard for logic or consistency.

 

That is not true I admire what he did last year. But last year is past. I sat through spring training games at Jet Blue and I said after they broke camp that the team was in for a tough April and possibly May because the way the team was mismanaged from beginning of March on.

 

And for the record, if the Sox get swept this weekend I suspect that we will begin to see the tensions in the clubhouse become public. Oh and I believe there are tensions in that clubhouse which are being papered over. Why do I say there are tensions in the clubhouse because I am watching virtually every game and I see the way the team is playing and interacting with each other. The Sox absolutely need to win this series. If they do then I may change my attitude to a more positive one. But right now I do not agree with the way this team is being managed.

[moonslav59]

The rest crticism thing is way overblown; Cora is not resting the position players nearly as much as most seem to think he is.

 

The Sox have played 56 games. Starts by the regular position players:

 

Benintendi - 49 (IIRC, he missed 3 games in April after fouling a ball off his foot and wasn't available) So basically, 49/53.

Betts - 54

Bogaerts - 53

Bradley Jr. - 46 (hasn't started a few times against lefties, understandable)

Devers - 53

Martinez - 48 (back and flu over the last couple weeks)

Moreland - 39 (ideally he'd be platooning with Pearce and now on IL with a back issue)

Vazquez - 39 (meaning he's played 3/4 of the time as a catcher)

 

Second base has been in total flux all season with no real regular.

 

Chavis has started 34 of the 37 games he's been in the majors for.

 

It's not like these guys are getting 2 days off a week (except for Vazquez which for a catcher is about right)

 

In ther context of the days when players routinely played 158-162 games, unless they were hurt, getting 2-4 days off in the first 3rd of a season is a bit beyond that tradition. (I'm not complaining. I want us rested for the playoffs and am 99% sure we make the playoffs.)

[Maxbialystock]

Prosecution exhibit #1: the Sox so far stink this year vs. last year when they won 108. #2: mostly the same players are back. #3: the real culprit is demonstrably and unequivocally perhaps the worst spring training in MLB history. 1 and 2 are true, but not necessarily 3.

 

The rotation pitched less in ST this year than last--Porcello 16 innings last year, 12 this year; Sale 15 and 9, Price 12 and 6, and ERod 0 (injured) and 15.

 

So far this year Porcello has had 11 starts and 63 innings, Sale 11 and 62, Price 9 and 47, and ERod 11 and 60.

 

ERA's: Porcello 4.28 last year and 4.41 this year; Sale 2.11 last year and 4.14 this year; Price 3.58 last year and 2.83 this year; and ERod 3.82 last year and 5.04 this year.

 

So, the guy who threw the fewest innings in ST, Price, has a better ERA(his best since 2015) than last year. The guy who threw the most innings in ST this year, ERod, has an ERA that is much worse. Porcello is a wash--he threw fewer innings in ST this year and his ERA is up a little.

 

Then there's Sale. Let's call him Exhibit #4 for the prosecution. His ST innings dropped from a wonderful, season-preparing 15 innings to a paltry 9 this year, and his ERA darn near doubled--from 2.11 to 4.19.

 

However. In both of the last two seasons with the Sox, Sale has been stunningly good in the first four months of both seasons, and pretty lousy in the last two, especially in the postseason. And that I believe is what Cora--no doubt with the support of DD and probably even John Henry who just agreed to that extension on Sale's contract--was hoping to remedy with fewer ST innings for Sale. Moreover, I think most of us have noticed that Sale's fastball ain't what it was in 2017 and 2018 although we have seen flashes here and there. My point here would be that it makes sense to limit his pitches and innings for now.

 

The defense rests.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Maxbialystock

[illinoisredsox]

In ther context of the days when players routinely played 158-162 games, unless they were hurt, getting 2-4 days off in the first 3rd of a season is a bit beyond that tradition. (I'm not complaining. I want us rested for the playoffs and am 99% sure we make the playoffs.)

 

I get what you're saying, but I think if you actually looked at the "old" days, players weren't playing as much as we think they were. Plus, with pinch hitting and smaller pitching staffs, players could play in a game pinch hitting or pinch running while still getting a day "off".

 

Zimmer burned out the 78 Red Sox by playing his regulars virtually every day, but only Rice started all 163 games.

 

Fisk started a sick 151 times (and appeared in 157).

Burleson 144

Evans 141

Hobson 147

Lynn 148

Remy 141

 

I used starts because there is no doubt as to intent by the manager. I'm not going back to see when guys were hurt (I know Burleson was in July because I watched it happen in Cleveland)

Edited May 31, 2019 by illinoisredsox

[Bellhorn04]

Bottom line - it is on Cora that this team was so lackluster (to be kind) coming out of the gate for what we all knew was a difficult road trip to start the season. That they have improved so much since then really just supports this...

 

My post was strictly about 2018.

[Bellhorn04]

That is not true I admire what he did last year.

 

Sure, your admiration is obvious in this post on the previous page:

 

The current manager had the benefit of a team built up to win. It wasn't a team that he built or molded. He was just lucky to be given the helm and he brought home a winner. Hooray for him.

[mvp 78]

Sure, your admiration is obvious in this post on the previous page:

 

The current manager had the benefit of a team built up to win. It wasn't a team that he built or molded. He was just lucky to be given the helm and he brought home a winner. Hooray for him.

 

Good one.

[Slasher9]

WTF Cora better get at least 2 W's in the Bronx this weekend or someone may flip the heated seats button in his Audi to "on"......

[Elktonnick]

Sure, your admiration is obvious in this post on the previous page:

 

The current manager had the benefit of a team built up to win. It wasn't a team that he built or molded. He was just lucky to be given the helm and he brought home a winner. Hooray for him.

 

If I didn't admire what he did in 18 I would haven't said Hooray! My point is that a number of baseball men other than someone named Farrell would have taken that team to the Championship. That doesn't make him the greatest manager ever. But last year is over. It was obvious to those of us who attended Spring Training Games in March that he wasn't properly preparing the club for the season. And in my case I am on record of saying so at the time. John Smoltz and Jim Palmer as well as others made similar comments on this with respect to the pitchers.

 

In any event, my opinion is my opinion, the current manager will one day no longer be the manager and the luster of what he accomplished in 18 will fade and an overall assessment will be based what he did or failed to do afterwards. Based on what I see him doing this year I think that will be a lot less favorable and his eventual departure will be sooner rather than later.

[Maxbialystock]

If I didn't admire what he did in 18 I would haven't said Hooray! My point is that a number of baseball men other than someone named Farrell would have taken that team to the Championship. That doesn't make him the greatest manager ever. But last year is over. It was obvious to those of us who attended Spring Training Games in March that he wasn't properly preparing the club for the season. And in my case I am on record of saying so at the time. John Smoltz and Jim Palmer as well as others made similar comments on this with respect to the pitchers.

 

In any event, my opinion is my opinion, the current manager will one day no longer be the manager and the luster of what he accomplished in 18 will fade and an overall assessment will be based what he did or failed to do afterwards. Based on what I see him doing this year I think that will be a lot less favorable and his eventual departure will be sooner rather than later.

 

You absolutely are entitled to your opinion, but let's agree it is only that. The Sox are just 2 games above .500 on May 31 after their best season ever--108 wins, 11-3 in the postseason. But you have already tossed Cora onto the ash heap of history with 2/3 of this season to go.

 

Moreover, the pitching stats don't support your notion that ST destroyed the rotation. Quick and dirty: the guy who pitched the fewest ST innings (6) this year, Price, has improved his ERA from last year significantly; the guy who pitched the most (15 innings) in ST, ERod, has seen his ERA balloon to over 5. Porcello, who pitched 16 innings last year and 12 this year in ST, has seen his ERA rise slightly. The one guy, Sale, who supports the "ST was a disaster" thesis, pitched fewer innings in ST this year and saw his ERA almost double. All true, but he is the same guy who has folded like a house of cards in August thru October of the past two years. So Cora tried to fix that by having him throw less in ST this year. Also, Sale's fast ball ain't what it used to be, which might be another valid reason to lighten the load early in the season.

[Elktonnick]

You absolutely are entitled to your opinion, but let's agree it is only that. The Sox are just 2 games above .500 on May 31 after their best season ever--108 wins, 11-3 in the postseason. But you have already tossed Cora onto the ash heap of history with 2/3 of this season to go.

 

Moreover, the pitching stats don't support your notion that ST destroyed the rotation. Quick and dirty: the guy who pitched the fewest ST innings (6) this year, Price, has improved his ERA from last year significantly; the guy who pitched the most (15 innings) in ST, ERod, has seen his ERA balloon to over 5. Porcello, who pitched 16 innings last year and 12 this year in ST, has seen his ERA rise slightly. The one guy, Sale, who supports the "ST was a disaster" thesis, pitched fewer innings in ST this year and saw his ERA almost double. All true, but he is the same guy who has folded like a house of cards in August thru October of the past two years. So Cora tried to fix that by having him throw less in ST this year. Also, Sale's fast ball ain't what it used to be, which might be another valid reason to lighten the load early in the season.

 

I never said that ST destroyed the rotation. What I believe is that a failure to properly prepare the starters in spring training put the sox in a big hole. It is not only what I believe but John Smoltz said as much at least on two occasions on national broadcasts and Jim Palmer said the same several times on the Orioles Red Sox broadcasts. They aren't the only former big leaguers who have commented negatively on the Sox's ST pitching approach.

 

I will concede that the manager is gambling that his rotation will finish strong. I hope he is right. But even if he is correct it may not be enough for sox to make the playoffs except as a wild card, which I believe Dombrowski and Henry are ok with since neither has shown any inclination to spend money to improve the club. If that will be the case then everyone gets to rest in October and should be bright and chipper for those big games in Ft Myers against the Twins next March. One thing you can bet, God willing, my wife and I will be there to watch. There is nothing like the atmosphere at Jet Blue and Hammond Stadium when the Sox and Twins play for that all important Commissioners Cup or is it the Chairman's Cup who the hell knows anyway.

[Maxbialystock]

I never said that ST destroyed the rotation. What I believe is that a failure to properly prepare the starters in spring training put the sox in a big hole. It is not only what I believe but John Smoltz said as much at least on two occasions on national broadcasts and Jim Palmer said the same several times on the Orioles Red Sox broadcasts. They aren't the only former big leaguers who have commented negatively on the Sox's ST pitching approach.

 

I will concede that the manager is gambling that his rotation will finish strong. I hope he is right. But even if he is correct it may not be enough for sox to make the playoffs except as a wild card, which I believe Dombrowski and Henry are ok with since neither has shown any inclination to spend money to improve the club. If that will be the case then everyone gets to rest in October and should be bright and chipper for those big games in Ft Myers against the Twins next March. One thing you can bet, God willing, my wife and I will be there to watch. There is nothing like the atmosphere at Jet Blue and Hammond Stadium when the Sox and Twins play for that all important Commissioners Cup or is it the Chairman's Cup who the hell knows anyway.

 

One more time--

 

Porcello's ERA is about the same as last year even though he pitched fewer innings in ST than in 2018.

ERod pitched 15 innings in ST, which is almost what Porcello pitched (16 innings) last year in ST. His ERA is much worse than last year.

Price pitched fewer ST innings than last year, and his ERA has gone down and so far is his best since 2015.

 

Sale is the one guy who fits this theory that fewer innings in ST destroyed the rotation. He only threw 9 innings, and his ERA doubled from last year. However, there are two mitigating factors on Sale. One is that we know for a fact that he ran out of gas in 2017 and again last year--both times in August thru October. The other is that we know Sale still doesn't have that blazing fastball he had the last two years. It is possible he is simply holding back on Cora's instructions, but I doubt it.

 

In other words, hard evidence, stats, on three of our four starters do not support the pontifications of Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, and others. You included.

 

But maybe my stats are wrong or wrong-headed. If so, tell me how they are wrong.

[Bellhorn04]

One more time--

 

Porcello's ERA is about the same as last year even though he pitched fewer innings in ST than in 2018.

ERod pitched 15 innings in ST, which is almost what Porcello pitched (16 innings) last year in ST. His ERA is much worse than last year.

Price pitched fewer ST innings than last year, and his ERA has gone down and so far is his best since 2015.

 

Sale is the one guy who fits this theory that fewer innings in ST destroyed the rotation. He only threw 9 innings, and his ERA doubled from last year. However, there are two mitigating factors on Sale. One is that we know for a fact that he ran out of gas in 2017 and again last year--both times in August thru October. The other is that we know Sale still doesn't have that blazing fastball he had the last two years. It is possible he is simply holding back on Cora's instructions, but I doubt it.

 

In other words, hard evidence, stats, on three of our four starters do not support the pontifications of Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, and others. You included.

 

But maybe my stats are wrong or wrong-headed. If so, tell me how they are wrong.

 

You're doing good work there Max. The other thing you should check out is the 'Leongate' factor.

 

Sale has a 2.68 ERA pitching to Leon, and a 6.39 ERA pitching to Vazquez.

 

It was definitely a mistake keeping Swihart instead of Leon at the start of the season.

[Elktonnick]

One more time--

 

Porcello's ERA is about the same as last year even though he pitched fewer innings in ST than in 2018.

ERod pitched 15 innings in ST, which is almost what Porcello pitched (16 innings) last year in ST. His ERA is much worse than last year.

Price pitched fewer ST innings than last year, and his ERA has gone down and so far is his best since 2015.

 

Sale is the one guy who fits this theory that fewer innings in ST destroyed the rotation. He only threw 9 innings, and his ERA doubled from last year. However, there are two mitigating factors on Sale. One is that we know for a fact that he ran out of gas in 2017 and again last year--both times in August thru October. The other is that we know Sale still doesn't have that blazing fastball he had the last two years. It is possible he is simply holding back on Cora's instructions, but I doubt it.

 

In other words, hard evidence, stats, on three of our four starters do not support the pontifications of Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, and others. You included.

 

But maybe my stats are wrong or wrong-headed. If so, tell me how they are wrong.

 

For the last time no one said anything about destroying the rotation what were talking about was the opening of the season. The facts are irrefutable, the starters got off to an horrendous opening. What the starters have done since is interesting but not germane to Smoltz's Palmers and several other respected baseball analysts contention that they were not prepared for the beginning of the season. The results of those ball games speak for themselves. They lost 8 out of their first 11 games. The Sox find themselves in a hole as a result, 2 games above 500 7 and half games behind with over a third of the season played. Amend that to 8 and half behind heading into June.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Elktonnick