JF Fired, New Thread, Please see new link

[a700hitter]

About now, all the Farrell apologists should be eating some crow or have egg on their faces or some other appropriate idiom. LOL!!!

[devildavid]

Farrell, on the whole, was a successful manager with the Red Sox. One World Series Championship and two division titles in 5 seasons. He was the victim of bad personnel moves in 2014 and 2015 in addition to some major drop offs in key player performances. He also faced the personal challenge of cancer in the middle of the 2015 season. All in all, nothing to be ashamed of and plenty to be proud of. Despite the firing, he can leave with his head held high.

[a700hitter]

Farrell, on the whole, was a successful manager with the Red Sox. One World Series Championship and two division titles in 5 seasons. He was the victim of bad personnel moves in 2014 and 2015 in addition to some major drop offs in key player performances. He also faced the personal challenge of cancer in the middle of the 2015 season. All in all, nothing to be ashamed of and plenty to be proud of. Despite the firing, he can leave with his head held high.

Hey back to back last place finishes and back to back Division titles in 4 years will be hard to match.

[devildavid]

Hey back to back last place finishes and back to back Division titles in 4 years will be hard to match.

 

You left out the WS Championship. And yes, it may be hard to match. Making the playoffs in 3 out of 5 seasons is not easy.

[sk7326]

I have been a fan since 1986 - if you rack and stack the Red Sox managers? Distinct dropoff between #3 and #4.

 

1. Terry Francona

2. Jimy Williams

3. Joe Morgan

4. Kevin Kennedy

5. John McNamara

6. Bobby Valentine

7. Joe Kerrigan

8. Butch Hobson

[a700hitter]

You left out the WS Championship. And yes, it may be hard to match. Making the playoffs in 3 out of 5 seasons is not easy.

This is true.

[Maxbialystock]

About now, all the Farrell apologists should be eating some crow or have egg on their faces or some other appropriate idiom. LOL!!!

 

I am certainly one of the apologists even though I too have expressed dismay on occasion. In the event, as I said elsewhere, I have always believed that no manager is indispensable. Some are better than others, no doubt, but all are expendable.

 

But since you brought this up, I would add the following--

 

First, to remind, I am fine with Farrell being fired for whatever reason.

 

Second, however, he did manage a team that won the AL East 3 times and the WS once in 5 years.

 

Third, granted, he lost three straight to the Guardians last year and 3 of 4 to the Astros, but in both instances had starting pitchers who absolutely stunk--Price and Porcello in 2016 and Sale, Pomeranz, Fister, and Porcello this year. On top of that his ace reliever Kimbrel absolutely blew game 4 this year.

 

Fourth, of the four teams--Cleveland, Houston, New York, and Boston--in the ALDS, the Red Sox had by far the lowest net runs scored--+117. The other three, in order, had +254, +196, and +198. Interestingly, two of the latter three are in the ALCS. And, if the Nationals beat the Cubs, they and the Dodgers will also constitute 2 of the top 3 in the NL in net runs scored (the 3d is Arizona).

 

Fifth, the Sox had by far the best record in MLB this year in extra inning games, which are those games mostly likely to demand more of a manager.

 

Sixth, however, I mean it when I say I have no quarrel with DD's decision. Yes, Ortiz was gone. Yes, Price spent a lot of time on the DL. Nevertheless, there was some real talent on this team and it is entirely possible Farrell did not get the most out of what he had. I don't think so, but don't mind saying I could be wrong.

 

Seventh, on the other hand, espn, ever the rabble rousers, have a new article on the Sox: "With Farrell gone, Red Sox are all Dave Dombrowski's mess now." I personally think DD has done more good than harm and also think John Henry won't want to fire him. Still, Price needs to deliver on that hefty price tag, Porcello does too, Sale may need to be rested more than a typical ace would need to be, I still have my doubts about Pomeranz, the Sox may in fact need to hire a big bat, etc.

[Bellhorn04]

I have been a fan since 1986 - if you rack and stack the Red Sox managers? Distinct dropoff between #3 and #4.

 

1. Terry Francona

2. Jimy Williams

3. Joe Morgan

4. Kevin Kennedy

5. John McNamara

6. Bobby Valentine

7. Joe Kerrigan

8. Butch Hobson

 

Where's Farrell?

[SoxnCycles]

Where's Farrell?

 

Above Valentine, i would hope!

[sk7326]

Where's Farrell?

 

OOPS!

 

1. Terry Francona

2. Jimy Williams

3. Joe Morgan

4. John Farrell

5. Kevin Kennedy

6. John McNamara

7. Bobby Valentine

8. Joe Kerrigan

9. Butch Hobson

[illinoisredsox]

OOPS!

 

1. Terry Francona

2. Jimy Williams

3. Joe Morgan

4. John Farrell

5. Kevin Kennedy

6. John McNamara

7. Bobby Valentine

8. Joe Kerrigan

9. Butch Hobson

 

Grady Little?

[illinoisredsox]

1. Terry Francona (no question)

2. Joe Morgan (2 divisions with not a lot of talent, who can forget "these guys aren't as good as they think they are" after he was let go)

3. Jimy Williams (went back and forth between him and JF, in the end, the 2 last place finishes knocked Farrell down)

4. John Farrell (1 title is a big plus)

5. John McNamara (2 mediocre seasons sandwiched around what should have been the year)

6. Kevin Kennedy (1 unexpected division title)

7. Grady Little (blew the 2003 pennant)

8. Butch Hobson (ranks above the other 2 only because of the talent he had, see Joe Morgans comment above)

9. Bobby Valentine (disaster with a very good team on paper)

10. Joe Kerrigan (the fact that he lasted about 40 games says a lot)

Edited October 12, 2017 by illinoisredsox

[a700hitter]

I am certainly one of the apologists even though I too have expressed dismay on occasion. In the event, as I said elsewhere, I have always believed that no manager is indispensable. Some are better than others, no doubt, but all are expendable.

 

But since you brought this up, I would add the following--

 

First, to remind, I am fine with Farrell being fired for whatever reason.

 

Second, however, he did manage a team that won the AL East 3 times and the WS once in 5 years.

 

Third, granted, he lost three straight to the Guardians last year and 3 of 4 to the Astros, but in both instances had starting pitchers who absolutely stunk--Price and Porcello in 2016 and Sale, Pomeranz, Fister, and Porcello this year. On top of that his ace reliever Kimbrel absolutely blew game 4 this year.

 

Fourth, of the four teams--Cleveland, Houston, New York, and Boston--in the ALDS, the Red Sox had by far the lowest net runs scored--+117. The other three, in order, had +254, +196, and +198. Interestingly, two of the latter three are in the ALCS. And, if the Nationals beat the Cubs, they and the Dodgers will also constitute 2 of the top 3 in the NL in net runs scored (the 3d is Arizona).

 

Fifth, the Sox had by far the best record in MLB this year in extra inning games, which are those games mostly likely to demand more of a manager.

 

Sixth, however, I mean it when I say I have no quarrel with DD's decision. Yes, Ortiz was gone. Yes, Price spent a lot of time on the DL. Nevertheless, there was some real talent on this team and it is entirely possible Farrell did not get the most out of what he had. I don't think so, but don't mind saying I could be wrong.

 

Seventh, on the other hand, espn, ever the rabble rousers, have a new article on the Sox: "With Farrell gone, Red Sox are all Dave Dombrowski's mess now." I personally think DD has done more good than harm and also think John Henry won't want to fire him. Still, Price needs to deliver on that hefty price tag, Porcello does too, Sale may need to be rested more than a typical ace would need to be, I still have my doubts about Pomeranz, the Sox may in fact need to hire a big bat, etc.

I did not expect Farrell to get fired until I listened to him being savaged on WEEI. They seemed to have inside information that he had very bad standing in the clubhouse. Edited October 12, 2017 by a700hitter

[illinoisredsox]

I did not expect Farrell to get fired until I listened to him being savaged on WEEI. They seemed to have inside information that he had very bad standing in the clubhouse.

 

I also didn't think it would make much difference if he stayed or if he got fired. I was not beating a drum for him to be fired... not at all. I can say that with a straight fac, because it is true. On the other hand, you really can't say with a straight face that you were not a Farrell apologist. Are you serious? You gave him a pass on everything.

 

 

Ah, where does he say he was not an apologist? You may want to reread his post, paying close attention to the first sentence.

 

I get that you don't like max, whatever. But you don't get to take that bias and warp what he actually said into your own narrative.

[a700hitter]

Ah, where does he say he was not an apologist? You may want to reread his post, paying close attention to the first sentence.

 

I get that you don't like max, whatever. But you don't get to take that bias and warp what he actually said into your own narrative.

Good point. He is an admitted apologist and as such should be eating crow as the FO took hours to decide that Farrell had to go, so the consensus must have been that he was doing a s***** job.

 

I have edited my post accordingly.

[sk7326]

Grady Little?

 

OOPS SQUARED

 

OOPS!

 

1. Terry Francona

2. Jimy Williams

3. Joe Morgan

4. John Farrell

5. Grady Little

6. Kevin Kennedy

7. John McNamara

8. Bobby Valentine

9. Joe Kerrigan

10. Butch Hobson

[Maxbialystock]

Good point. He is an admitted apologist and as such should be eating crow as the FO took hours to decide that Farrell had to go, so the consensus must have been that he was doing a s***** job.

 

I have edited my post accordingly.

 

Meh. I also said that I had previously expressed--several times last year and this year--my then dislike of Farrell. That said, I did not hear the WEEI stuff and suspect that was as definitive as anything on why Farrell got fired. Somewhere else I read that DD had told someone that he was going to make a change regardless of how far the Sox went in the postseason. So both of those items suggest Farrell had lost the clubhouse or something like that, and I freely admit I was oblivious to that possibility.

[Elktonnick]

I did not expect Farrell to get fired until I listened to him being savaged on WEEI. They seemed to have inside information that he had very bad standing in the clubhouse.

 

While none of us will know for sure unless Dombrowski is more forthcoming, but after listening to Lou Merloni and reading Dan Shaughnessy's column, I suspect that Farrell's admission that he was unaware of the electronic sign stealing scheme may have played a bigger part of his dismissal than anyone is willing to admit. Not many individuals in a supervisory role in the private sector, could or would survive such a scandal in my opinion.

[sk7326]

Grady and Farrell were both interesting cases. While neither were amazing managers ... they both managed to replace guys who seemed like (frankly) giant turds as bosses and human beings (in terms of a guy you have to deal with every day). There was just some increase in clubhouse karma just by replacing those managers with reasonably functioning normal people.

[a700hitter]

Meh. I also said that I had previously expressed--several times last year and this year--my then dislike of Farrell. That said, I did not hear the WEEI stuff and suspect that was as definitive as anything on why Farrell got fired. Somewhere else I read that DD had told someone that he was going to make a change regardless of how far the Sox went in the postseason. So both of those items suggest Farrell had lost the clubhouse or something like that, and I freely admit I was oblivious to that possibility.

You disliked him but nevertheless were an unabashed apologist for him? Such inconsistency just confuses me.

[Bellhorn04]

While none of us will know for sure unless Dombrowski is more forthcoming, but after listening to Lou Merloni and reading Dan Shaughnessy's column, I suspect that Farrell's admission that he was unaware of the electronic sign stealing scheme may have played a bigger part of his dismissal than anyone is willing to admit. Not many individuals in a supervisory role in the private sector, could or would survive such a scandal in my opinion.

 

I can't see the sign-stealing thing being a big factor. The team only got a slap on the wrist for it after all.

 

But there was certainly an accumulation of things suggesting dysfunction.

[Elktonnick]

I can't see the sign-stealing thing being a big factor. The team only got a slap on the wrist for it after all.

 

But there was certainly an accumulation of things suggesting dysfunction.

 

I think there was more to this than the public knows. Both Merloni and Shaughnessy mentioned it. Before they brought it up as one of the many justifications for his dismissal, I hadn't paid it much mind. But now I am not so sure.

 

It wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility that JH was personally offended by the incident or this was further confirmation that Farrell had lost the clubhouse and was absolutely clueless about what was going on under his nose.

 

We all remember the beer and chicken fiasco and the FO could have been fearful that this was all too reminiscent of that. Shaughnessy said on High Heat on MLB network that this was decision that was either approved or initiated by Henry himself. Unless Dombrowski, Kennedy or Henry gives us more details we will never know for sure.

[Maxbialystock]

I read that revenues are down like 15%. Why won't that be a factor?

[Kimmi]

John Farrell deserved to be fired. You can debate the performance all you want. I think the performance was good enough to hang on, but the clubhouse was a disaster. Your coach has to have accountability. How are you accountable when you leave your wife and are banging a NESN reporter? How is that accountable? You stay silent while Pedey effectively alienates his team in the Machado fiasco. You stay silent when David Price rips into a HOF broadcaster because he cannot take some criticism. This team had no leader and in those cases, you need your manager to lead, and Farrell isn't a leader. There were rifts all over the place. Farrell was being classified as a terrible communicator by an unnamed player in the locker room. Once a manager loses the locker room, he is useless and had to go.

 

This is a bunch of hogwash and speculation.

 

It's much like that chicken and beer fiasco, which would have gone unnoticed if the team hadn't collapsed.

[Kimmi]

So who are on the list of replacements for Farrell?

 

Ron Gardenhire a very experienced and successful 60 year old.

 

DiMarlo Hale from the jays. A 56 year old who knows the players but doesn't soound like a mover or a shaker.

 

Alomar jr. an inexperienced candidate but that doesn't mean bad

 

Brad Asmus good baseball man with the Padres now but results were no so great. He is around 45

 

Jason Varitek would be inexperienced and on the younger side

 

Doug Martinez of the Cubs.

 

Alex Cora out of the Houston organization. Inexperienced but exposed to a forward thinking organization might bring some of that with him

 

Others?

 

Like many others, I really like Cora.

[Kimmi]

Just my personal opinion and I could be completely off base, but I just see too many of the same type of player on this current team from a personality point of view. Who's the goofball who keeps everyone loose? The 04 team had Millar and players could laugh at Manny's antics because he produced on the field. Damon was a bit off the wall as well. The current group just seems like a bunch of quiet guys. Nothing wrong with having that personality, but you need both types on a roster.

 

Hanley!!!

[Kimmi]

I think it boils down to Dombrowski wanting his own guy and Dombrowski making rash decisions.

[Elktonnick]

This is a bunch of hogwash and speculation.

 

It's much like that chicken and beer fiasco, which would have gone unnoticed if the team hadn't collapsed.

 

But the team did collapse!!. Some one must be held accountable. As it is oft said, "Success has many fathers, failure is born an orphan."

[Spudboy]

I did not expect Farrell to get fired until I listened to him being savaged on WEEI. They seemed to have inside information that he had very bad standing in the clubhouse.

 

Same here only I started to wonder when the bow tied midget spoke about the poor communications the night before Farrell was axed.

 

That was the first that I had heard of any disconnect between manager and players.

[Kimmi]

But the team did collapse!!. Some one must be held accountable. As it is oft said, "Success has many fathers, failure is born an orphan."

 

I am guessing that the type of thing that we hear about as 'clubhouse issues' go on in every clubhouse every single year. We just never hear about them, until a team falters or collapses. That doesn't mean that said issues had anything to do with the collapse, but it does make for good headlines.

 

Yes, someone has to be held accountable, though I think the accountability is often misplaced.