A Realistic View at 2018: Part I

[cp176]

But I think there is some truth to Dombrowski not really being the drafter and talent evaluator in the same class as some of our recent GMs...

 

I think that there might be an apt comparison between Theo and DD but if you are saying that Ben Cherington even looked close to being ready to run an organization effectively - sorry No Way. You can mention all of the minor league signings that you want to also I still do not give Cherington or any GM credit alone for those signings. Having an experienced competent GM is a strength. I'm glad that we have one.

[Bellhorn04]

Hey!! That was our current ownership!

 

It was Wayne Huizenga who dismantled the 1997 team, and then sold it to John Henry after the 1998 season.

[a700hitter]

But I think there is some truth to Dombrowski not really being the drafter and talent evaluator in the same class as some of our recent GMs...

DD did draft AGon and Beckett in back to back years while with the Marlins -- not too shabby. In the year he drafted Beckett, he signed Miguel Cabrera as an amateur free agent. You could build a pretty good team around those guys.

[notin]

DD did draft AGon and Beckett in back to back years while with the Marlins -- not too shabby. In the year he drafted Beckett, he signed Miguel Cabrera as an amateur free agent. You could build a pretty good team around those guys.

 

He also drafted Verlander. But he's been a GM for over 20 years and we're both going back a long to find good draft picks

[a700hitter]

He also drafted Verlander. But he's been a GM for over 20 years and we're both going back a long to find good draft picks

I only looked at his record with the Marlins.

[notin]

I think that there might be an apt comparison between Theo and DD but if you are saying that Ben Cherington even looked close to being ready to run an organization effectively - sorry No Way. You can mention all of the minor league signings that you want to also I still do not give Cherington or any GM credit alone for those signings. Having an experienced competent GM is a strength. I'm glad that we have one.

 

As a talent evaluator for drafting, Cherington did an excellent job. He had done party in most of Epstein's drafts and brought in Benintendi. Critics who point to Trey Ball might want to consider Dombrowski's track record with draft picks, which hasn't yielded much in a long time. But hey! He did get Scott Moore and Kyle Sleeth with top ten picks. .

[a700hitter]

He also drafted Verlander. But he's been a GM for over 20 years and we're both going back a long to find good draft picks

He also drafted Curtis Granderson, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Porcello, Alex Avila, Nick Castellanos, and Drew Smyly while with the Tigers, Not too bad considering that he had low picks and some years he had no first round picks.

[cp176]

As a talent evaluator for drafting, Cherington did an excellent job. He had done party in most of Epstein's drafts and brought in Benintendi. Critics who point to Trey Ball might want to consider Dombrowski's track record with draft picks, which hasn't yielded much in a long time. But hey! He did get Scott Moore and Kyle Sleeth with top ten picks. .

 

I have no problem with you stating an opinion and trying to defend Ben and make him seem like he was a lot better than he probably was. He was a very good role player. He is probably a pretty good guy but comparing him to Dombrowski, someone who has been through it and done it all from soup to nuts, there really is no comparison. By the way, i remember when people were first starting to talk about Benintendi - it really didn't take a great talent evaluator to look at what he had done. I know that I could have screwed it up! If it had come down to either Beni or Moncada, I would have taken the better athlete - Moncada! lol I am glad for sure that we have Benintendi.

[cp176]

He also drafted Curtis Granderson, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Porcello, Alex Avila, Nick Castellanos, and Drew Smyly while with the Tigers, Not too bad considering that he had low picks and some years he had no first round picks.

 

 

but dammit, his name is not Ben. lol

[a700hitter]

I have no problem with you stating an opinion and trying to defend Ben and make him seem like he was a lot better than he probably was. He was a very good role player. He is probably a pretty good guy but comparing him to Dombrowski, someone who has been through it and done it all from soup to nuts, there really is no comparison. By the way, i remember when people were first starting to talk about Benintendi - it really didn't take a great talent evaluator to look at what he had done. I know that I could have screwed it up! If it had come down to either Beni or Moncada, I would have taken the better athlete - Moncada! lol I am glad for sure that we have Benintendi.

Ben was simply out of his depth as GM.

[notin]

He also drafted Curtis Granderson, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Porcello, Alex Avila, Nick Castellanos, and Drew Smyly while with the Tigers, Not too bad considering that he had low picks and some years he had no first round picks.

 

 

That's actually not really an impressive coup for a 12 year stretch. I know you probably didn't do extensive research (I wouldn't have either), but in order to bulk that list to seven names, you had o include a pitcher entering his age 29 season who has started more than 18 games only twice in his career, and won't start any games this year. (If you have ever ripped Buchholz for being fragile, Smyly might not be the guy to prop up) and Cameron Maybin, a career part time starter/part time DL mainstay who has struggled to stay on the field even when healthy.

 

If someone tried to pass off players like this as Cherington's highlight picks, would you accept them?

 

Granderson, Miller and Porcello were all good picks. That is true...

[notin]

I have no problem with you stating an opinion and trying to defend Ben and make him seem like he was a lot better than he probably was. He was a very good role player. He is probably a pretty good guy but comparing him to Dombrowski, someone who has been through it and done it all from soup to nuts, there really is no comparison. By the way, i remember when people were first starting to talk about Benintendi - it really didn't take a great talent evaluator to look at what he had done. I know that I could have screwed it up! If it had come down to either Beni or Moncada, I would have taken the better athlete - Moncada! lol I am glad for sure that we have Benintendi.

 

Actually, not what I am doing.

 

I am saying Dombrowski is not as good at drafting as GMs we have had in the past, and going forward it will have implications to this team.

 

Comparisons about Cherington and Dombrowski as GMs have been brought up solely by you.

[notin]

Ben was simply out of his depth as GM.

 

Good for the farm. But when he changed his approach to free agency, he made too many bad calls. Also, he needed to learn to trade prospects once in a while.

 

(Although I do think Rusney Castillo is a better player than many Sox fans have given him credit for.)

[Bellhorn04]

Good for the farm. But when he changed his approach to free agency, he made too many bad calls. Also, he needed to learn to trade prospects once in a while.

 

(Although I do think Rusney Castillo is a better player than many Sox fans have given him credit for.)

 

What are you saying-Castillo was an under-the-radar good signing?

[notin]

What are you saying-Castillo was an under-the-radar good signing?

 

No. Bet he's been an extremely solid defensive outfielder in limited action who deserves more chances in MLB as opposed to being the highest paid player in the International League

 

But we know he won't get those chances in Boston and why..

[harmony]

Good for the farm. But when he changed his approach to free agency, he made too many bad calls. Also, he needed to learn to trade prospects once in a while.

 

(Although I do think Rusney Castillo is a better player than many Sox fans have given him credit for.)

The Red Sox signed righthand-hitting Cuban outfielder Rusney Castillo to a seven-year, $72.5 million contract in 2014 three-and-a-half months before the Arizona Diamondbacks signed righthand-hitting Cuban outfielder Yasmany Tomas to a six-year, $68.5 million contract.

 

Castillo, who is three years older than Tomas, has posted 1.7 bWAR and 1.4 fWAR in 99 MLB games while Tomas has posted a negative 2.2 bWAR and a negative 1.4 fWAR in 305 MLB games.

 

Neither contract has worked out but I would take Castillo and his glove over Tomas and his defensive liabilities.

[cp176]

Actually, not what I am doing.

 

I am saying Dombrowski is not as good at drafting as GMs we have had in the past, and going forward it will have implications to this team.

 

Comparisons about Cherington and Dombrowski as GMs have been brought up solely by you.

 

That my friend is not so. Many people have been trying to compare Ben to DD on this board.

With respect to your opinion as to who has been better than DD at drafting players, fine. It is your opinion but thinking that Ben Cherington was better at it than DD is lubricous - in my opinion.

[notin]

A while ago on one of these threads I mentioned a game Steve Phillips was playing on MLB Network radio called "Five In, Five Out." The premise is, that since roughly half the post-season teams from one season do ot make the post-season the next year, which of the ten teams from the 2017 post-season are least likely to return.

 

The Twins are always the overwhelming favorites.

 

Now in the last two weeks, the Twins have added Logan Morrison, Jake Odirizzi and Lance Lynn (at the cost of $15mill and a shortstop non-prospect), are they still the overwhelming favorites to not return to the post-season? If not, who is and why?

[cp176]

The Red Sox signed righthand-hitting Cuban outfielder Rusney Castillo to a seven-year, $72.5 million contract in 2014 three-and-a-half months before the Arizona Diamondbacks signed righthand-hitting Cuban outfielder Yasmany Tomas to a six-year, $68.5 million contract.

 

Castillo, who is three years older than Tomas, has posted 1.7 bWAR and 1.4 fWAR in 99 MLB games while Tomas has posted a negative 2.2 bWAR and a negative 1.4 fWAR in 305 MLB games.

 

Neither contract has worked out but I would take Castillo and his glove over Tomas and his defensive liabilities.

 

I'm sure that Castillo is enjoying his wealth. Sadly it looks as though that will be his Achilles heal as well. He just isn't worth that kind of money.

[notin]

That my friend is not so. Many people have been trying to compare Ben to DD on this board.

With respect to your opinion as to who has been better than DD at drafting players, fine. It is your opinion but thinking that Ben Cherington was better at it than DD is lubricous - in my opinion.

 

Read more carefully. I said Dombrowski is not as good of a drafter as we are used, and he isn't. Even the people trying to prove his drafting have done more to prove my point that disprove it.

 

But again, you misread my posts. And assume too much. I never specifically said Cherington was; I said as our past GMs. This wasn't about Dombrowski vs Cherington as it was Dombrowski vs what Sox fans are used to. And whether or not others have compared Cherington and Dombrowski is immaterial to that point...

[Bellhorn04]

A while ago on one of these threads I mentioned a game Steve Phillips was playing on MLB Network radio called "Five In, Five Out." The premise is, that since roughly half the post-season teams from one season do ot make the post-season the next year, which of the ten teams from the 2017 post-season are least likely to return.

 

The Twins are always the overwhelming favorites.

 

Now in the last two weeks, the Twins have added Logan Morrison, Jake Odirizzi and Lance Lynn (at the cost of $15mill and a shortstop non-prospect), are they still the overwhelming favorites to not return to the post-season? If not, who is and why?

 

The five in five out principle might not work this year because most of the crappy teams decided to stay crappy or get even crappier.

[cp176]

Read more carefully. I said Dombrowski is not as good of a drafter as we are used, and he isn't. Even the people trying to prove his drafting have done more to prove my point that disprove it.

 

But again, you misread my posts. And assume too much. I never specifically said Cherington was; I said as our past GMs. This wasn't about Dombrowski vs Cherington as it was Dombrowski vs what Sox fans are used to. And whether or not others have compared Cherington and Dombrowski is immaterial to that point...

 

I am a very careful reader with an IQ that probably rivals yours even notin. You spin your comments your way, I will spin mine my way. I don't agree with your opinion here. That's it. I do enjoy this back and forth with you but when you start to hit the condescension button - not so much.

[Kimmi]

Moustakas signs for $6.5M! What a steal!

 

$5.5M/1

 

$1M buyout on mutual option 2nd year at $15M.

 

I'm starting to wonder, if we might have spent our money in a better way.

 

Low risk- short term deals to 3-4 players instead of one big one for JD.

 

Maybe, but this is some big time hindsight.

 

No one could have foreseen Moustakas having to settle for that kind of a deal.

 

I criticize Dombrowski for a lot of things, but IMO, he did a good job in signing both Moreland and JD.

[Kimmi]

Poor Dave, he can't win...even when he has the most patient offseason of his life, he's still not patient enough.

 

He's taking a lot of criticism for re-signing Moreland, but IMO, it gave him the leverage he needed with JD.

 

Also, I don't think it's a bad deal at all.

[Kimmi]

Now I can once again agree with you Bellhorn. I like that. DD did what he felt needed to be done. He did well. No one could have accurately predicted what the market was going to do any more than they can predict what will happen going forward. Hindsight, hindsight, hindsight. We here tend to do this (second guess) the decisions made by our GMs in general. People can hate the Moreland sign all they want it still was not a bad sign - actually a good one at the time. Moreland represents the type of player I want to see in a Red Sox uniform.

 

Shocker alert! I agree with you 100%!

[Kimmi]

Call me a cockeyed optimist, but i still think the little maniac has something left in his tank.

 

Don't ever count Pedroia out.

[Kimmi]

I think that there might be an apt comparison between Theo and DD but if you are saying that Ben Cherington even looked close to being ready to run an organization effectively - sorry No Way. You can mention all of the minor league signings that you want to also I still do not give Cherington or any GM credit alone for those signings. Having an experienced competent GM is a strength. I'm glad that we have one.

 

Ummm, no.

[cp176]

Shocker alert! I agree with you 100%!

 

What ?!?!

[Kimmi]

That my friend is not so. Many people have been trying to compare Ben to DD on this board.

With respect to your opinion as to who has been better than DD at drafting players, fine. It is your opinion but thinking that Ben Cherington was better at it than DD is lubricous - in my opinion.

 

I think it's not so much comparing, but more trying to give Ben the credit that he deserves for our current team. It irks me to no end that Dombrowski is touted as such a genius for putting our team back in contention when the team was already there before Dombrowski made any moves, and the pieces that Dombrowski added were only possible because of what Ben left behind.

[cp176]

Ummm, no.

 

oh well - one out of two (thousand) lol