2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[cp176]

Had we kept our roster intact.

 

SP Porcello

SP E Rod

SP S Wright

SP Johnson

SP

 

Closer Kelly

Set Up Barnes

 

1B Sam Travis/Shaw

2B Pedroia

SS Xander

3B Devers/Shaw

C Vazquez

DH Hanley

LF Beni

CF Bradley Jr

RF Betts

 

I guess we could have finished near bottom had we kept Ben, but our farm would be stocked to the hilt. We'd have Moncada and Kopech.

 

Lets take a closer look at our trades. Part I.

 

Manuel Margo 2017 126 games 487 AB .313 .409 .722 What do you do with him? Trade JBJ?

Javier Guerra Padres shortstop prospect....no longer a top 30 in Padre system. He was a top MLB top 50 prospect in 2015. SEE HOW THIS WORKS?

Logan Allen #13 Left hander pitching prospect for Padres

Anderson Espinoza #7 Prospect for Padres (injured for 2018)

Carlos Asuaje 89 games 307 AB .334 .362 .696 2B for Padres

Wade Miley....do we really want him back?

Luis Alfehandro Basabe...traded for Ziegler, not on 40 man roster, not listed on 30 man prospects list for Arizona

Jose Almonte....also traded for Ziegler, ranked 22nd on 30 man prospects list for Arizona, a pitcher

Aaron Wilkerson...traded to Milwaukee for Aaron Hill. soon to be 29 year old pitcher is on the 40 man roster.

Wendell Rijo...also traded to Milwaukee for Aaron Hill. Not on the top 30 prospect list for the Brewers.

Mauricio Dubon...traded to Milwaukee for Thornburg. Ranked 11th in Brewers top 30 prospect list. 2B/SS.

TRAVIS SHAW...traded to Milwaukee for Thornburg. .862 OPS with 31 HR and 101 RBI. Under team control for 4 years. Just remember, everyone here thought maybe he was expendable. Moncada on his way.

 

Ok, I'll stop for now. I will follow with White Sox trade. Setting aside the Shaw trade, did we really empty out the farm? Bueller? Bueller?

 

Looks to me as near as I can tell we separated a little chaff to get to the wheat. I like what you did here.

[baseball jones]

That is your opinion and I'm sure there are people here who agree with you. I do not care what Dave did in Detroit and obviously I don't share your opinion. To date, I am very pleased with the moves he has made for our team - the Red Sox.

 

its not opinion

 

i like some of them too.

 

i don't like the price deal.to long and to much money and i feel the same about martinez.

[Kimmi]

Nope.

 

Are you unhappy with our 25 man roster? If so, speak up now.

 

Don't be a Monday morning quarterback.

 

Betts, Beni, Xander, JD, Devers, Hanley, Pedey, Vazquez, JBJ with Moreland, Nunez, Swihart and Leon.

Sale, Price, Porcello, Pom and E Rod (Johnson)

Kimbrel, Carson, Barnes, Kelly, Scott, Hembree, Workman

 

Are you seriously going to blame DD for this roster not winning?

 

Absolutely not, quite the contrary. I was just trying to clarify your opinion on that.

 

I have said many times that Dombrowski has done his job in terms of putting a winning team on the field. I am quite pleased with our team. I was quite pleased with our team before we signed JD.

 

I have also said many times that all a GM can do is assemble a team that is a contender on paper. What happens on the field is beyond his control.

 

I will definitely not blame Dombrowski if our team does not win. However, I will absolutely blame him when the cliff arrives. And I will criticize him for not getting another starting pitcher if Price, Pom, or ERod miss a good portion of the season due to injury.

 

So my question is, why are you blaming Ben for the 2 last place finishes in 2015 and 2016? He did his job during the offseason.

[Kimmi]

Isn't that your position with regard to coffee Boy Ben -- that it was the players' fault? And your excuse for the players was that their under-performance was an anomaly. There was enough blame NOT to go around.

 

This is correct, and Dombrowski will not be to blame if we lose due to our players underperforming this year.

[Kimmi]

Guilty.

 

But in my defense this off-season was intolerably slow

 

I don't remember exactly who posted what, but from what I can remember, I think you are pretty reasonable in any criticism towards Dombrowski.

[a700hitter]

This is correct, and Dombrowski will not be to blame if we lose due to our players underperforming this year.

I am glad that you are being consistent. Will all of DD's bad moves get blamed on Henry since he is a puppet like Coffee Boy Ben?

[baseball jones]

Had we kept our roster intact.

 

SP Porcello

SP E Rod

SP S Wright

SP Johnson

SP

 

Closer Kelly

Set Up Barnes

 

1B Sam Travis/Shaw

2B Pedroia

SS Xander

3B Devers/Shaw

C Vazquez

DH Hanley

LF Beni

CF Bradley Jr

RF Betts

 

I guess we could have finished near bottom had we kept Ben, but our farm would be stocked to the hilt. We'd have Moncada and Kopech.

 

Lets take a closer look at our trades. Part I.

 

Manuel Margo 2017 126 games 487 AB .313 .409 .722 What do you do with him? Trade JBJ?

Javier Guerra Padres shortstop prospect....no longer a top 30 in Padre system. He was a top MLB top 50 prospect in 2015. SEE HOW THIS WORKS?

Logan Allen #13 Left hander pitching prospect for Padres

Anderson Espinoza #7 Prospect for Padres (injured for 2018)

Carlos Asuaje 89 games 307 AB .334 .362 .696 2B for Padres

Wade Miley....do we really want him back?

Luis Alfehandro Basabe...traded for Ziegler, not on 40 man roster, not listed on 30 man prospects list for Arizona

Jose Almonte....also traded for Ziegler, ranked 22nd on 30 man prospects list for Arizona, a pitcher

Aaron Wilkerson...traded to Milwaukee for Aaron Hill. soon to be 29 year old pitcher is on the 40 man roster.

Wendell Rijo...also traded to Milwaukee for Aaron Hill. Not on the top 30 prospect list for the Brewers.

Mauricio Dubon...traded to Milwaukee for Thornburg. Ranked 11th in Brewers top 30 prospect list. 2B/SS.

TRAVIS SHAW...traded to Milwaukee for Thornburg. .862 OPS with 31 HR and 101 RBI. Under team control for 4 years. Just remember, everyone here thought maybe he was expendable. Moncada on his way.

 

Ok, I'll stop for now. I will follow with White Sox trade. Setting aside the Shaw trade, did we really empty out the farm? Bueller? Bueller?

 

i don't hate dave i just don't think his free agent signings are good.his trades are great but thats all he seems to well.

[Kimmi]

I'm fine with guys like Johnson as depth options, but there isn't really an argument against trying to increase your depth. Pitching, pitching, and more pitching. Dumpster diving can't hurt anyone if you're paying a guy peanuts in Pawtucket with an opt-out.

 

The difference between those guys and has-beens is potential. Sometimes you catch a guy who has something left, and when you do that you're going to get much better production than a guy whose ceiling is a BOTRS up/down guy.

 

^^ This 100%

[Kimmi]

Uh, wut?

 

He's done his best to fill that pen with decent arms every year since he's been here. Starters are pretty much set. Offense is pretty much set. What position has he ignored?

 

Also, do you remember what Detroit looked like BEFORE Dombrowski?

 

He's talking about the cliff that Dombrowski left behind.

[Kimmi]

I am glad that you are being consistent. Will all of DD's bad moves get blamed on Henry since he is a puppet like Coffee Boy Ben?

 

If I agreed with you in the least little bit about all your puppet talk, I might be able to answer your question.

[Kimmi]

i don't hate dave i just don't think his free agent signings are good.his trades are great but thats all he seems to well.

 

He overpaid in his trades too.

[a700hitter]

If I agreed with you in the least little bit about all your puppet talk, I might be able to answer your question.

You questioned his leadership and authority on analytics. If he isn't the leader on that, how can you assume that he is the leader on other things that come within his job description?You just like to cherry-pick according to your likes and dislikes. You liked Ben, so all of the good moves were credited to him and his bad moves were blamed on Larry. You don't like DD so you give him no credit for advances in analytics but you blame him for every wrong personnel move.

[cp176]

its not opinion

 

i like some of them too.

 

i don't like the price deal.to long and to much money and i feel the same about martinez.

 

all good - i think that a part of me might even agree with you a little bit here although I still hope that these two moves still do work out.

[baseball jones]

all good - i think that a part of me might even agree with you a little bit here although I still hope that these two moves still do work out.

 

i want them to work out too.i'm just hoping for some extra pitching

[cp176]

i want them to work out too.i'm just hoping for some extra pitching

 

Don't blame you at all. Never can have too much pitching. I'm really hoping that one of those guys we have gets a chance and gets it done.

[notin]

Well you have already seen two pretty good answers so I won't bore you by saying the same thing just to make it three. As an aside though, I have never for one second felt that the overall strategy has been to go all in and then expect some ridiculous dropoff in a couple of years.

 

They said different things...

[notin]

Uh, wut?

 

He's done his best to fill that pen with decent arms every year since he's been here. Starters are pretty much set. Offense is pretty much set. What position has he ignored?

 

Also, do you remember what Detroit looked like BEFORE Dombrowski?

 

Well they did win 155 games in the two years before he got there and then 98 in his first two seasons as GM...

Edited March 8, 2018 by notin

[notin]

This is correct, and Dombrowski will not be to blame if we lose due to our players underperforming this year.

 

I will blame him of this team is hit by a rash of pitching injuries and the Sox miss the playoffs because key games down the stretch were started by some AAAA pitcher who didn't belong in the majors. ..

[notin]

All three have similar odds of doing well as Dickey or Lackey or ...

 

Based on what?

 

Why would or be such a bad idea to let them earn their shot over Lackey or Dickey or ....?

[notin]

We wait until we know Johnson, Velazquez, Elias, and Beeks can't cut it, and then we go out and get a good pitcher, if needed, at a pro-rated contract cost.

 

You can't count on Doug Fister bring available every summer. But you can count on Steve Ontiveros being available. ..

[moonslav59]

Based on what?

 

Why would or be such a bad idea to let them earn their shot over Lackey or Dickey or ....?

 

I'd say they are close enough to even with those two old fogies, but to me, it's more about saving luxury tax money.

 

I'm fine with signing Lackey or Dickey to a minor league only deal, but they will want incentives or bonuses that could bring us too close to the major tax limit and disallow any mid season move we might need badly.

 

We can sign two $1M guys now or trade for a $6M guy on July 31st, and both plans cost us $2M. I'll wait it out for the $6M guy and hope an in house guys rises to the occasion.

 

How long are we going to keep never knowing about Johnson and Elias? Guys like Velazquez would never get a chance.

 

Fister was a lightening strike. Most of those type signings never work out.

 

Same as giving guys like Johnson, Elias and Velazquez a final chance. At least we'll know, if we should keep them around any longer.

[moonslav59]

You can't count on Doug Fister bring available every summer. But you can count on Steve Ontiveros being available. ..

 

They both looked the same in March of those seasons.

[notin]

They both looked the same in March of those seasons.

 

But who was better in September?

[notin]

I'd say they are close enough to even with those two old fogies, but to me, it's more about saving luxury tax money

 

I'm fine with signing Lackey or Dickey to a minor league only deal, but they will want incentives or bonuses that could bring us too close to the major tax limit and disallow any mid season move we might need badly.

 

We can sign two $1M guys now or trade for a $6M guy on July 31st, and both plans cost us $2M. I'll wait it out for the $6M guy and hope an in house guys rises to the occasion.

 

How long are we going to keep never knowing about Johnson and Elias? Guys like Velazquez would never get a chance.

 

Fister was a lightening strike. Most of those type signings never work out.

 

Same as giving guys like Johnson, Elias and Velazquez a final chance. At least we'll know, if we should keep them around any longer.

for

 

Some guys will want incentives. Some will want out dates. And for some players, that is a reason not to sign them. But some won't. Our some incentives are worth putting in the contract.

 

It's not about taking chances away from the players you mentioned (by the way, Velasquez was once signed to the exact type of minor league deal I am pushing for here.)

 

It's alt having more depth and more options. Can you guarantee Johnson or Velasquez will be healthy when we need them?

[moonslav59]

But who was better in September?

 

So, which one from Lackey or Dickey or Johnson/Velazquez/Elias/Bekks ("the field") will look better in October?

 

I'll go with that one. When you figure out which one it is, let me know.

 

I'll gamble on "the field", save the money for a summer acquisition, and pray our starter injuries are kept to a minimum.

[moonslav59]

for

 

Some guys will want incentives. Some will want out dates. And for some players, that is a reason not to sign them. But some won't. Our some incentives are worth putting in the contract.

 

It's not about taking chances away from the players you mentioned (by the way, Velasquez was once signed to the exact type of minor league deal I am pushing for here.)

 

It's alt having more depth and more options. Can you guarantee Johnson or Velasquez will be healthy when we need them?

 

No, but we have Elias and Beeks as well. Can you guarantee Lackey or Dickey are not toast?

 

I'm not against signing 5 guys like Dickey or Lackey to minor league deals, but I want to keep the $4M for a "real pitcher" in July, if needed.

[jacksonianmarch]

You can't count on Doug Fister bring available every summer. But you can count on Steve Ontiveros being available. ..

 

Fister was in a unique situation. I anticipate that any offer of significance puts the sox over that final hurdle. My anticipation is the staff of Sale, Price, Pom, Porcello, ERod, Wright, Johnson, Velasquez etc will end up being what you roll with barring a major injury (like Price, Sale or Pom). Anything of significance will push the sox over that final hurdle which isn't what they want

[moonslav59]

Fister was in a unique situation. I anticipate that any offer of significance puts the sox over that final hurdle. My anticipation is the staff of Sale, Price, Pom, Porcello, ERod, Wright, Johnson, Velasquez etc will end up being what you roll with barring a major injury (like Price, Sale or Pom). Anything of significance will push the sox over that final hurdle which isn't what they want

 

I figure us for having about $4M, but it could be as high as $6M. If we trade or DFA Holt, that's another $2M. We could part ways with Leon (against my wishes). Even if we end up with $5-6M to spend, we can pick up a pretty high-priced rental in July at a pro-rated cost. An $18M pitcher would only cost about $6M if acquired on July 31st. That's a chance at a very good pitcher while us staying below the max penalty limit.

 

If we could get the the number to $8M, we could trade for 2 guys making $12M each (prorated to two times $4M).

 

There's ways to get stronger for the playoffs without blowing all our budget space with a march panic plan.

 

Sure, sign some vets to minor league deals that don't add hardly anything over the guy we let go to make room for them. Better yet, sign them to a non-40 man roster slot with an opt out clause by a certain date. That's fine. Just don't cut into the $4M we have now.

[Bellhorn04]

Well they did win 155 games in the two years before he got there and then 98 in his first two seasons as GM...

 

145 in the two years before he got there, to be exact. But your point stands that they were horrible in his first two years.

 

OTOH Theo's Cubs were pretty horrible in his first two years too, winning 127 games compared to 146 the previous two years. Doesn't really mean much, does it?

 

The Tigers hadn't made the playoffs since 1987 when Dombrowski took over, I think that's a little more to the point.

[Bellhorn04]

You can't count on Doug Fister bring available every summer. But you can count on Steve Ontiveros being available. ..

 

OK, you finally made me look up Ontiveros's game log for 2000. He had one horrific start, then 2 good relief appearances.

 

Fister, it must be pointed out, was pretty awful himself at times. Overall he was mediocre at best.