Pablo is no more

[dannycater]

You must be one of those revisionist fans who may have never watched him play. 6 times top 10 in MVP voting, 2 batting titles, ROY, batted .321 in the postseason, 7 home runs in 98/99 playoffs. 8-1/2 years of stellar production for Sox. Yeah, just dwell on '04. Same people bitching about Manny right before he was traded. It's so funny. Sox were doing everything to ship Nomar and Manny out after 03. Everything to get AROD and a backup plan of Nomar for Ordonez. So yeah, if you are where Nomar was and no contract extension, maybe you are pouting a bit too.

[TedWilliams101]

Me either.

 

There was certainly some criticism and most thought it was a bit risky, but I was surprised more people didn't view it as a terrible signing. I hated the signing and couldn't believe how much money they threw at an average player who SF didn't want anything to do with given his eating disorder. Granted, I still shake my head at the fact they let the future HOF Beltre walk for no good reason what so ever. And thanks to that, we've had maybe the worst s***-stream at 3B in baseball since. I just don't get how this FO works. Maybe they are trying to be Theo and make 'smart' moves, but end up with poop on their faces because they just don't know what the f they are doing. Players who prove they are elite in Boston, they let walk because of money, then turn around and spend almost as much on more average players who end up completely failing. Head scratching and frustrating.

[dannycater]

I'd rather see money sent to all those former Sox who actually produced for the Sox. Give them the wasted millions. Give the guys who were making 200 thousand a year when that was something special the cash. Sandoval, CC with all that extra dough (Dodgers swallowing the rest but still). Just sick how those 2 did nothing. But don't try to keep Beltre, no he actually did produce for Sox. God forbid hold on to Lester for that 10 million that the Sox had to hold back the bank for. Nope, give it all to Price. Okay, David's on the clock.

[jad]

You must be one of those revisionist fans who may have never watched him play. 6 times top 10 in MVP voting, 2 batting titles, ROY, batted .321 in the postseason, 7 home runs in 98/99 playoffs. 8-1/2 years of stellar production for Sox. Yeah, just dwell on '04. Same people bitching about Manny right before he was traded. It's so funny. Sox were doing everything to ship Nomar and Manny out after 03. Everything to get AROD and a backup plan of Nomar for Ordonez. So yeah, if you are where Nomar was and no contract extension, maybe you are pouting a bit too.

 

Exactly. He joins that elite group of players vilified by Boston fans: among those who come immediately to mind-- Manny, Boggs, Clemens, Jim Rice, Buckner (of course), Ortiz (when he had a bad year), Price (17-game winner), A. Gonzales, Dice-K (18 game winner), and of course Williams himself. Not a bad line-up.

[S5Dewey]

cp, it's just one of the little games we like to play, trying to figure out and predict what Henry and Dombrowski are going to do.

 

It is a fact that the team has sort of been using the 'luxury tax threshold' as their payroll budget for years now. They've gone over it a few times now but not by a huge amount. Of course they also figured out a way to get Castillo and Craig off the payroll for tax purposes.

 

You're certainly right that Henry does have a ton of money and isn't afraid to throw it around. But sometimes he also disappoints some of us with things like signing Moreland instead of Encarnacion, right?

 

IMHO JH probably does have enough money to buy anyone he wants to but it's also a business to him. I keep thinking that his bean counters have a good idea of how much added revenue making the PS brings in along with the added revenue from every step along the way. He then weighs that against the cost of obtaining certain player(s) and makes his decision.

 

To paraphrase Tony Soprano, "It's business. Nothing personal"

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. He joins that elite group of players vilified by Boston fans: among those who come immediately to mind-- Manny, Boggs, Clemens, Jim Rice, Buckner (of course), Ortiz (when he had a bad year), Price (17-game winner), A. Gonzales, Dice-K (18 game winner), and of course Williams himself. Not a bad line-up.

 

Nomar crossed a line you don't cross, in my opinion. In 2004 he was a malcontent with a mysterious injury doing his best to f*** the team over and cost us a golden chance for a championship. Theo did the right thing 100% - unloading Nomar and getting OCab saved our season.

[dannycater]

Nomar crossed the line? The mysterious injury was an achilles issue btw, nothing mysterious. He didn't cost anyone any title and when he was traded he still was hitting above .300, just like Manny was 2nd on the team in RBI and hitting exactly .300 when he was traded from Sox for being that all-time cancer. Oh, he crossed the line!!! No one remembers when Nomar got out of the clubhouse after the team was eliminated in a playoff loss at Fenway and started clapping to the fans in the stands. Appreciating them. Few will bring that up, I will. It happened.

[dannycater]

jad, villified is the right word too. Just sad the way some of these Sox fans jump all over some really great all-time Sox but will feel sorry for Pablo. Poor Pablo, it just didn't work out, it's okay. Instead let's hate on Nomar, Rice, and Lowe. The venom at Derek Lowe too...jesus that was a s*** show listening to how he was a drunk and he didn't do this and that. Whatever. He made 2 of the greatest Sox pitching efforts I've ever seen. The strikeout to save the season v. Oakland in 03 and his WS start in 04. Edited July 15, 2017 by dannycater

[Bellhorn04]

Nomar crossed the line? The mysterious injury was an achilles issue btw, nothing mysterious. He didn't cost anyone any title and when he was traded he still was hitting above .300, just like Manny was 2nd on the team in RBI and hitting exactly .300 when he was traded from Sox for being that all-time cancer. Oh, he crossed the line!!! No one remembers when Nomar got out of the clubhouse after the team was eliminated in a playoff loss at Fenway and started clapping to the fans in the stands. Appreciating them. Few will bring that up, I will. It happened.

 

How did the injury occur was the mysterious part. No one saw it. In July he told Francona and Epstein he thought he might have to go back on the DL for a while. Then after he got traded he said 'it's fine now.'

 

Nomar might have been hitting above .300 but his defense was atrocious.

[moonslav59]

There was certainly some criticism and most thought it was a bit risky, but I was surprised more people didn't view it as a terrible signing. I hated the signing and couldn't believe how much money they threw at an average player who SF didn't want anything to do with given his eating disorder. Granted, I still shake my head at the fact they let the future HOF Beltre walk for no good reason what so ever. And thanks to that, we've had maybe the worst s***-stream at 3B in baseball since. I just don't get how this FO works. Maybe they are trying to be Theo and make 'smart' moves, but end up with poop on their faces because they just don't know what the f they are doing. Players who prove they are elite in Boston, they let walk because of money, then turn around and spend almost as much on more average players who end up completely failing. Head scratching and frustrating.

 

Most of the players they let go were just in time decisions. The Beltre one was bad. Many of us knew it at the time, too.

 

The only other players with a strong case for not letting go were Damon & VMart (maybe DeLowe), but Damon was not going to be our CF'er or DH, so I thought that move was right.

 

Letting these guys go turned out to be 100% right:

 

Jacoby Ellsbury

Jason Bay

Pedro

OCab

Mueller

Millar

Papelbon (?)

 

Traded:

Nomar

Agon, Beckett, CC

Slocumb

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I'll take the Beltre mistake and the JBJ/Swihart comp picks that came with losing him within the context of all the choices they made in their entirety.

 

 

[harmony]

I could be wrong, but I don't remember this or many other writers saying Pablo's signing was "stupid".

That newspaper, the Boston Herald, had this November 2014 column about the Red Sox signing of Pablo Sandoval:

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/boston_red_sox/2014/11/pablo_sandoval_right_for_red_sox

 

And another Herald article:

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/clubhouse_insider/2014/11/big_winner_pablo_sandoval_introduced_at_fenway_park

 

Even the Boston Globe's Dan Shaughnessy was on board:

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/10/24/pablo-sandoval-fits-red-sox-needs/d9uH5iXUetHg3hXa9Fpp9K/story.html

 

Another November 2014 take from masslive:

 

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2014/11/red_sox_free_agency_pablo_sand_3.html#incart_social_feature

 

And from NESN:

 

http://nesn.com/2014/11/pablo-sandoval-good-fit-for-red-sox-but-boston-shouldnt-break-bank/

 

From MLB Daily Dish:

 

https://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/10/27/7079391/red-sox-must-get-sandoval

 

FanGraphs had these takes:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-six-years-for-pablo-sandoval-isnt-crazy/

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/which-pablo-sandoval-did-the-red-sox-buy/

Edited July 15, 2017 by harmony

[moonslav59]

That newspaper, the Boston Herald, had this November 2014 column about the Red Sox signing of Pablo Sandoval:

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/boston_red_sox/2014/11/pablo_sandoval_right_for_red_sox

 

And another Herald article:

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/clubhouse_insider/2014/11/big_winner_pablo_sandoval_introduced_at_fenway_park

 

Even the Boston Globe's Dan Shaughnessy was on board:

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/10/24/pablo-sandoval-fits-red-sox-needs/d9uH5iXUetHg3hXa9Fpp9K/story.html

 

Another November 2014 take from masslive:

 

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2014/11/red_sox_free_agency_pablo_sand_3.html#incart_social_feature

 

Not a hint of negativity anywhere.

 

I loved Shaughnessy (always the clown, though unintentional):

I promise never to rip Sandoval for being out of shape or going on the disabled list. It makes perfect sense if you think about it.

[moonslav59]

I could be wrong, but I don't remember this or many other writers saying Pablo's signing was "stupid".

 

To be fair, it does appear Buckley had some doubts. (I couldn't find the full article.)

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/steve_buckley/2015/03/buckley_warning_signs_about_pablo_sandoval

[dannycater]

His defense was declining because he was and never got over an Achilles injury that hampered his range. He was declining defensively that year and he was hurt. He was not "okay." Never really was after that injury and a few others (groin tear). That has nothing to do with his contributions as a Sox, and the venom spewed by fans over his exit. He must have been so awful that the Sox players voted him a 3/4th share for his WS take. He was the heart and soul of the team for most of his Sox career. He wasn't a mercenary player and he played regularly at the same position his whole Sox career. He was fun to watch, and he was often very clutch and he was always in the Jeter, AROD best SS argument and rightfully so.

[dannycater]

For several seasons the only constants the Sox had in the lineup were Nomar and Manny.

[Jasonbay44]

It's that fan attitude that makes Boston a less desirable place to play.

 

Sorry! I guess I should wish a dude who was absolutely horrendous and didn't even put in the effort the best of luck on his future endeavors! I don't want to offend the millionaire athlete, he obvious has feelings and doesn't deserve any hate for being fired for being a sack of s*** at his million dollar job. Poor guy.

[Bellhorn04]

Nomar did have a lot of great years for the Sox, no question. You might say his timing was very bad, causing a ruckus in 2004 of all years, that really magnified how bad it made him look.

[TedWilliams101]

Most of the players they let go were just in time decisions. The Beltre one was bad. Many of us knew it at the time, too.

 

The only other players with a strong case for not letting go were Damon & VMart (maybe DeLowe), but Damon was not going to be our CF'er or DH, so I thought that move was right.

 

Letting these guys go turned out to be 100% right:

 

Jacoby Ellsbury

Jason Bay

Pedro

OCab

Mueller

Millar

Papelbon (?)

 

Traded:

Nomar

Agon, Beckett, CC

Slocumb

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I'll take the Beltre mistake and the JBJ/Swihart comp picks that came with losing him within the context of all the choices they made in their entirety.

 

 

 

Ellsbury was the best move of all, no one could have predicted that he would become pedestrian with the Yankees. But I'd say Papelbon wasn't a great move if it wasn't for getting really lucky with Koji. I'd say it worked out, but wasn't a "move on from a star who falls off a cliff" with Papelbon.

 

Bay was a no-brainer, I don't think anyone felt good about his knee situation. Agon and CC were different situations with them just sucking. I don't blame the FO for the trade and signing though as no one saw CC becoming useless and Agon becoming a major problem and his power disappearing.

 

I completely disagree with OCab. They went from OCab to Rent-an-error, AGon, and then Lugo. From 2005-2008 OCab posted WAR of 2.0+ every year, including 4.2 in '07. In contrast, no one on the RS came even close to posting a 2.0 WAR year at SS. SS was an absolute disaster after 0Cab left. Disaster. It was a terrible decision to let him go, not a good one!

 

My point was more aimed at what the FO has done since Theo left, not during Theo's tenure (though Beltre technically was at the end of Theo's tenure). Lester/Price, Panda, Lackey trade for Craig/Kelly, Castillo, Cespedes, Ramirez, the whole Bobby V disaster. While Theo made some mistakes of course and the Sox have made good trades/signings since he left, I feel like there are way more boneheaded trades and crazy contracts since he left.

[cp176]

I think there may also be a sort of pride involved in spending decisions. We all remember how the rest of the league all felt the Yankees were "buying championships". In some way, people were viewing the Dodgers as trying to buy championships, although even they are looking to cut budget going forward.

 

I'm sure Henry could let the budget be $400M, if he wanted. You'd think we'd have a much better chance at winning had we signed Scherzer, Cueto, Encarnacion, Beltre, Chapman and Miller. If it was all about winning and nothing about spending, (most of) these guys would be on our team right now.

 

I think that with respect to the "pride idea" here you are absolutely right. No one wants to think that we are becoming the King George led Yankees.

[cp176]

cp, it's just one of the little games we like to play, trying to figure out and predict what Henry and Dombrowski are going to do.

 

It is a fact that the team has sort of been using the 'luxury tax threshold' as their payroll budget for years now. They've gone over it a few times now but not by a huge amount. Of course they also figured out a way to get Castillo and Craig off the payroll for tax purposes.

 

You're certainly right that Henry does have a ton of money and isn't afraid to throw it around. But sometimes he also disappoints some of us with things like signing Moreland instead of Encarnacion, right?

 

I fully understand what you are saying. When I say that the franchise has no budget, I don't really mean it. I think that whatever it might be, it is clearly too high. It drives me crazy. I lived with this team through some very lean years obviously so i am not disappointed with the product that we are putting on the field but I also am not naive enough to think that the extreme amount of money being thrown at these athletes isn't the primary reason. I wish that I could honestly look at the franchise and think that we have been successful because we have been doing all of the little things that have to be done better than everyone else. I can't say that and truly that bothers me.

[jad]

Ellsbury was the best move of all, no one could have predicted that he would become pedestrian with the Yankees. But I'd say Papelbon wasn't a great move if it wasn't for getting really lucky with Koji. I'd say it worked out, but wasn't a "move on from a star who falls off a cliff" with Papelbon.

 

Bay was a no-brainer, I don't think anyone felt good about his knee situation. Agon and CC were different situations with them just sucking. I don't blame the FO for the trade and signing though as no one saw CC becoming useless and Agon becoming a major problem and his power disappearing.

 

I completely disagree with OCab. They went from OCab to Rent-an-error, AGon, and then Lugo. From 2005-2008 OCab posted WAR of 2.0+ every year, including 4.2 in '07. In contrast, no one on the RS came even close to posting a 2.0 WAR year at SS. SS was an absolute disaster after 0Cab left. Disaster. It was a terrible decision to let him go, not a good one!

 

My point was more aimed at what the FO has done since Theo left, not during Theo's tenure (though Beltre technically was at the end of Theo's tenure). Lester/Price, Panda, Lackey trade for Craig/Kelly, Castillo, Cespedes, Ramirez, the whole Bobby V disaster. While Theo made some mistakes of course and the Sox have made good trades/signings since he left, I feel like there are way more boneheaded trades and crazy contracts since he left.

 

A-gon did not "suck" with the RS. He did exactly what he did elsewhere, hitting around .300. And until this year, he has done exactly that with LAD. The reasons he did not "fit in" acc. to many Boston fans had nothing to do with his production.

[moonslav59]

His defense was declining because he was and never got over an Achilles injury that hampered his range. He was declining defensively that year and he was hurt. He was not "okay." Never really was after that injury and a few others (groin tear). That has nothing to do with his contributions as a Sox, and the venom spewed by fans over his exit. He must have been so awful that the Sox players voted him a 3/4th share for his WS take. He was the heart and soul of the team for most of his Sox career. He wasn't a mercenary player and he played regularly at the same position his whole Sox career. He was fun to watch, and he was often very clutch and he was always in the Jeter, AROD best SS argument and rightfully so.

 

He sucked by the time we dumped him.

[moonslav59]

I completely disagree with OCab. They went from OCab to Rent-an-error, AGon, and then Lugo. From 2005-2008 OCab posted WAR of 2.0+ every year, including 4.2 in '07. In contrast, no one on the RS came even close to posting a 2.0 WAR year at SS. SS was an absolute disaster after 0Cab left. Disaster. It was a terrible decision to let him go, not a good one!

 

Apparently, OCab was doggin' everyone's wives. Gonzo was a great replacement, but we gave up on him too soon. I'd have rather kept Gonzo than OCab.

 

We also got Ellsbury and Lowrie for losing OCab. We got Kopech for losing Ellsbury. We got Sale thanks to being able to add Kopech to the deal.

 

Letting OCab go was one of the best moves this organization ever made.

 

Paradoxically, trading for OCab was a top 5 move done by Theo & Co.

[TedWilliams101]

A-gon did not "suck" with the RS. He did exactly what he did elsewhere, hitting around .300. And until this year, he has done exactly that with LAD. The reasons he did not "fit in" acc. to many Boston fans had nothing to do with his production.

 

His first year he was fine, but his second year his power dropped off and it never came back. He was a .500+ and .900 SLG/OPS and most thought leaving Petco would give his numbers a boost + coming into his prime. Year two in Boston he posted .469/.812 line and he hasn't come close to 0.500 SLG or eclipsed .830 OPS since. People were expecting a 30/40 HR monster and instead he fell apart year two and then the personality issues.

[TedWilliams101]

I completely disagree with OCab. They went from OCab to Rent-an-error, AGon, and then Lugo. From 2005-2008 OCab posted WAR of 2.0+ every year, including 4.2 in '07. In contrast, no one on the RS came even close to posting a 2.0 WAR year at SS. SS was an absolute disaster after 0Cab left. Disaster. It was a terrible decision to let him go, not a good one!

 

Apparently, OCab was doggin' everyone's wives. Gonzo was a great replacement, but we gave up on him too soon. I'd have rather kept Gonzo than OCab.

 

We also got Ellsbury and Lowrie for losing OCab. We got Kopech for losing Ellsbury. We got Sale thanks to being able to add Kopech to the deal.

 

Letting OCab go was one of the best moves this organization ever made.

 

Paradoxically, trading for OCab was a top 5 move done by Theo & Co.

 

Gonzo was fine, but he wasn't better than OCab. OCab had nearly double the career WAR and far superior offensively. As for the "we got x and y from comp picks!", those are crappy arguments. You can spin anything if you take that road long enough. Who's to say we don't still draft Ellsbury, get comp picks for moving on from a different player and keeping OCab, etc etc. It's apples and oranges. Especially trying to weave it into getting Sale!

[illinoisredsox]

Ellsbury was the best move of all, no one could have predicted that he would become pedestrian with the Yankees. But I'd say Papelbon wasn't a great move if it wasn't for getting really lucky with Koji. I'd say it worked out, but wasn't a "move on from a star who falls off a cliff" with Papelbon.

 

Bay was a no-brainer, I don't think anyone felt good about his knee situation. Agon and CC were different situations with them just sucking. I don't blame the FO for the trade and signing though as no one saw CC becoming useless and Agon becoming a major problem and his power disappearing.

 

I completely disagree with OCab. They went from OCab to Rent-an-error, AGon, and then Lugo. From 2005-2008 OCab posted WAR of 2.0+ every year, including 4.2 in '07. In contrast, no one on the RS came even close to posting a 2.0 WAR year at SS. SS was an absolute disaster after 0Cab left. Disaster. It was a terrible decision to let him go, not a good one!

 

My point was more aimed at what the FO has done since Theo left, not during Theo's tenure (though Beltre technically was at the end of Theo's tenure). Lester/Price, Panda, Lackey trade for Craig/Kelly, Castillo, Cespedes, Ramirez, the whole Bobby V disaster. While Theo made some mistakes of course and the Sox have made good trades/signings since he left, I feel like there are way more boneheaded trades and crazy contracts since he left.

 

OCab was supposedly causing some clubhouse issues involving hitting on other players wives (or perhaps more than that).

[moonslav59]

Gonzo was fine, but he wasn't better than OCab. OCab had nearly double the career WAR and far superior offensively. As for the "we got x and y from comp picks!", those are crappy arguments. You can spin anything if you take that road long enough. Who's to say we don't still draft Ellsbury, get comp picks for moving on from a different player and keeping OCab, etc etc. It's apples and oranges. Especially trying to weave it into getting Sale!

 

You don't "move a different player". The free agents are set in stone. You keep them or let them go. I suppose Ellsbury might have dropped to #26 where we picked Craig Hansen, but I doubt it.

 

Gonzo had his best career OPS year the year after leaving Boston (.793). He hit 23 dingers in 2010. His glove declined after Boston though, but so did OCab's.

 

OCab did have a higher WAR after leaving Boston than Gonzo did from 2005-2007, but Gonzo had an almost identical OPS those 3 years.

 

The fact is, we made out like bandits letting OCab go, despite the mistaken choices we made at SS afterwards. No way was OCab ever going to be our long term SS. He was never anyone's long term SS after Montreal traded him-- maybe for the reasons I hinted at before. I think he was traded by every team that ever signed him.

 

Maybe the fact that wife-swapping is a major sport in California helped him stay there for 3 years out of his 4 year contract.

 

[SoxnCycles]

I'm glad he's gone, too. We can use the roster spot.

 

I don't have any ill feelings towards Pablito. Yeah, he could have been in better shape year one, but my only possible animosity is directed towards those who decided to sign him in the first place.

 

I don't get the hate spewing.

 

That's easy.

It's a chance for some people to feel superior to someone that has made more money, playing a game, than they'll ever see in their lifetimes.

A chance like that doesn't come around very often, you know.

[moonslav59]

That's easy.

It's a chance for some people to feel superior to someone that has made more money, playing a game, than they'll ever see in their lifetimes.

A chance like that doesn't come around very often, you know.

 

I guess I "get it", but I still often wonder why people choose someone like Pablo to vent their anger towards, when so many others in the world are much more deserving. Maybe they vent at them too, but on another forum.

 

Pablo was fat when we signed him. He'd been successful playing fat. He took what some one offered him despite all the evidence that showed decline. Not surprisingly he got hurt. He tried to come back. He worked hard to get back in some sort of shape that was probably better than when we signed him, but it just wasn't enough.

 

Do I feel sorry for Pablito? Hell, NO!

 

Do I feel even a tiny smidgen of anger or hate towards Pablito? Hell, NO!

 

Do I still blame Ben & Co for the awful signing? Hell, YES, but even with them, I feel no anger. It's more frustration and dismay.

[a700hitter]

That's easy.

It's a chance for some people to feel superior to someone that has made more money, playing a game, than they'll ever see in their lifetimes.

A chance like that doesn't come around very often, you know.

I don't resent him for making a lot of money playing baseball. Athletes

have a short earning life and they should maximize their opportunity. I think it is very stupid for a player to walk away from money. I resent Pablo because he made a lot of money NOT playing baseball. He let himself get fat to the point where he couldn't perform at a professional level. He openly admitted that he did not work on his fielding in this past off-season, and he really needed to improve his fielding. And finally, rather than trying to work his way back to the major leagues for the team that had already paid him $50 million for nothing, he decided to go home and take the final $50 million with him. IMO, he gave minimal effort to fulfill a very lucrative contract. I think that he proved himself to be a slug.