Red Sox Trade Deadline 2017 Thread

[Bellhorn04]

Good enough rarely gets you a WS, am I right or am I right? Fatal flaw? Idk, but let's not argue the semantics.

 

A lot of teams about as good as us and arguably better will improve at the deadline. It would have been a shame to trade away the future to end up in 4th place

 

4th place? Now I think you're overstating your case.

 

Anyway, Dombrowski has never been known to be a stand pat guy, so let's see.

 

I'm in the crowd that would like to see Devers get a shot before we make any big move there.

[cp176]

Good enough rarely gets you a WS, am I right or am I right? Fatal flaw? Idk, but let's not argue the semantics.

 

A lot of teams about as good as us and arguably better will improve at the deadline. It would have been a shame to trade away the future to end up in 4th place

 

I get what you are saying but I will continue to wonder who was traded that represented such a great future. No one I would hope would be upset with the trade for Sale. As for all of the other transactions, who were the bona fide blue chippers that we lost? Who were the active minor leaguers who are trending toward becoming stars of the future? I like our future a lot more right now then I did when we had more mediocrity that we traded away. i was a big Shaw fan, but still just mediocrity. if this leads us back to the trade for Espinoza, I'm sorry I'm not with the gang on that one. I agree though that he looked good for a 17 year old kid before he actually started to pitch for real in the minors and before he go hurt.

[S5Dewey]

Good enough rarely gets you a WS, am I right or am I right? Fatal flaw? Idk, but let's not argue the semantics.

 

A lot of teams about as good as us and arguably better will improve at the deadline. It would have been a shame to trade away the future to end up in 4th place

 

We're rapidly approaching the point where the FO is going to have to decide if they're really ALL IN on 2017.

 

This is where DD and JH earn their pay. IMO an equal case can be made for trading away one or more or Devers, Groome, or Travis... or not.

 

Were it me making that decision I wouldn't do it because simply making the playoffs doesn't guarantee a WS win. As we've said from time to time, once you make the playoffs anything can happen, and I wouldn't want this team to be the victim of "anything" again like we were last year and have completely gutted the farm in the process. But that's just me.

[Hugh2]

By 4th place I meant losing the ALCS. Sorry, I can see how that would be confusing.

 

I'd prefer Devers get a shot too, but if he's not ready....that's a big hole.

[Jack Flap]

I agree no one should be off the table, but I'm just not sure any of the options out there are worth giving up a lot for. Moustakas is probably the best of the rental group and may not even be available as the Royals are hardly out of it. How much should we give up for a guy like Frazier who comes with plenty of flaws of his own? If the White Sox asked for, say, Chavis+, should we be willing to do it?

 

Treading water with our internal candidates (as distasteful as that may be) until Devers is ready may end up being the best option.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Jack Flap

[Bellhorn04]

I'd be thrilled as heck (in the short run) if we unloaded most of the rest of the farm for Donaldson, but I'm not sure it's the right thing to do. Edited July 1, 2017 by Bellhorn04

[S5Dewey]

I don't like our 3B situation any more than anyone else does, but at the same time we ARE in 1st place.

 

I realize that everyone is probably tired of hearing me rave about the importance of defense, but the defense we're getting from Marrero and Lin is keeping us in games. In addition they're now starting to get a few hits so I'm happier with 3B now than I was when Sandoval was manning that spot. The really good news is that they only come up every 9th AB in the order. They aren't the long term answer but they're an answer for the immediate future and as long as we're successfully fighting for 1st place I wouldn't be making any panic moves.

 

Speaking of defense, did anyone notice that JBJ made a couple of outstanding plays last night that he made look routine?

[Nick]

I don't like our 3B situation any more than anyone else does, but at the same time we ARE in 1st place.

 

I realize that everyone is probably tired of hearing me rave about the importance of defense, but the defense we're getting from Marrero and Lin is keeping us in games. In addition they're now starting to get a few hits so I'm happier with 3B now than I was when Sandoval was manning that spot. The really good news is that they only come up every 9th AB in the order. They aren't the long term answer but they're an answer for the immediate future and as long as we're successfully fighting for 1st place I wouldn't be making any panic moves.

 

Speaking of defense, did anyone notice that JBJ made a couple of outstanding plays last night that he made look routine?

 

We would all love to have a better 3B but not at the expense of giving up our top young talent. It's one thing to give up a lot for Sale but not for a three month rental. It's about the value gained versus value lost. Both Moncada and Kopech was expendible to some degree because of emergence of Devers and having just signed Groome. And look what we got in return. We would not be talking about the playoffs this year without Sale.

 

Tons of ifs and I agree that 3B is our biggest problem. But what if E Rod returns fully healthy? What if Porcello comes up with a fix as he did back in 2015? What if Price continues to improve? What if Pom becomes more efficient on the mound and get us into 7th inning? What if Carson Smith returns at some point? What if Betts goes on a hot streak in second half? What if Beni hits over .300 second half of season? What if Hanley comes out of his funk?

 

If we are going to give up Devers, Travis, Groome or Chavis we better be getting more than a 3 month rental.

 

I applaude the approach Sox took with Moreland. I was okay with Price deal because of the jam we were in. DD came in and told us we needed 1) starting pitcher 2) a closer 3) and fourth OF. We were coming off back to back last place finishes. He did what he had to do to right the ship.

 

We have internal options in Devers and Travis. That's 12+ years of team control. We need to think twice before getting rid of them.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Nick

[OH FOY]

With the 2 Wildcards now, looks like only National League players at this point. Still early, I say next man up. That's the advantage of being in 1st place.

Yanks got injuries, poor Pitching, they aren't panicking, they just keep bringing up the kids.

[cp176]

We would all love to have a better 3B but not at the expense of giving up our top young talent. It's one thing to give up a lot for Sale but not for a three month rental. It's about the value gained versus value lost. Both Moncada and Kopech was expendible to some degree because of emergence of Devers and having just signed Groome. And look what we got in return. We would not be talking about the playoffs this year without Sale.

 

Tons of ifs and I agree that 3B is our biggest problem. But what if E Rod returns fully healthy? What if Porcello comes up with a fix as he did back in 2015? What if Price continues to improve? What if Pom becomes more efficient on the mound and get us into 7th inning? What if Carson Smith returns at some point? What if Betts goes on a hot streak in second half? What if Beni hits over .300 second half of season? What if Hanley comes out of his funk?

 

If we are going to give up Devers, Travis, Groome or Chavis we better be getting more than a 3 month rental.

 

I applaude the approach Sox took with Moreland. I was okay with Price deal because of the jam we were in. DD came in and told us we needed 1) starting pitcher 2) a closer 3) and fourth OF. We were coming off back to back last place finishes. He did what he had to do to right the ship.

 

We have internal options in Devers and Travis. That's 12+ years of team control. We need to think twice before getting rid of them.

 

i just went over the list of trades made since 2015 and why again do I not see any can't miss prospects on the list? Outside of organizational depth pieces, outside of Moncada and Kopech I think that most of the guys gone have already been replaced. I understand people not liking specific trades - thinking that maybe we gave up too much for a relief pitcher, or the thinking that maybe we could have gotten someone else instead of so and so but the whining about gutting the farm I just don't see. you can only have have so much mediocre duplication. Something our team has been notorious for I might add. With all that being said, I do kind of miss Shaw, but I am thinking that ultimately he was not going to be the guy holding down third for long either.

[moonslav59]

I wouldn't sign any of these guys for just this year if it took anything more than money. Why would anyone do that? It would simply smack of desperation and would make no sense at all for a team leading their division - None!

A trade comes with a contract. If it is Moustakis, he is your third baseman going forward.

 

He's a two month (+ playoffs) rental.

 

If an extension is part of a trade, I'll listen, but I still think the overpay need to get Mouse (extended or not) would not be worth the cost.

 

I think we go light (Lowrie--maybe Frazier) or take a chance on Devers in September.

[moonslav59]

I agree no one should be off the table, but I'm just not sure any of the options out there are worth giving up a lot for. Moustakas is probably the best of the rental group and may not even be available as the Royals are hardly out of it. How much should we give up for a guy like Frazier who comes with plenty of flaws of his own? If the White Sox asked for, say, Chavis+, should we be willing to do it?

 

Treading water with our internal candidates (as distasteful as that may be) until Devers is ready may end up being the best option.

 

I thought we'd trade for Frazier last winter, but he's a seriously flawed 2nd half hitter off to a llesser start than previous years. I don't like how he projects ending this season.

 

I would not give up our best power hitting prospect for 2 month rental like Frazier.

 

I might trade Ockimey, since I like Travis & Longhi better, and decent 1Bmen are easy to find, or Lakins for Frazier or Lowrie.

[cp176]

He's a two month (+ playoffs) rental.

 

If an extension is part of a trade, I'll listen, but I still think the overpay need to get Mouse (extended or not) would not be worth the cost.

 

I think we go light (Lowrie--maybe Frazier) or take a chance on Devers in September.

 

I would not trade anyone for Lowrie or frazier. Look, I really think that if we were not in the position we are in , Devers would already have been moved to the big club. I don't think the organization is as enamored with the concept of patient development as we think they are. It is a luxury if you can get away with it. Regardless as to what we might see as need, as long as this team wins, third base doesn't present the problem that we see it as being. If you lead your division, and are continuing to win, why would you feel particularly pressured to do anything. I think that the message is pretty clear as well as to what might happen to Sandoval if he doesn't heal considering craig being let go. Even though I would still like to see one more bat helping us out, if we continue to win, it kind of looks as though we might be ok without it.

[moonslav59]

I would not trade anyone for Lowrie or frazier. Look, I really think that if we were not in the position we are in , Devers would already have been moved to the big club. I don't think the organization is as enamored with the concept of patient development as we think they are. It is a luxury if you can get away with it. Regardless as to what we might see as need, as long as this team wins, third base doesn't present the problem that we see it as being. If you lead your division, and are continuing to win, why would you feel particularly pressured to do anything. I think that the message is pretty clear as well as to what might happen to Sandoval if he doesn't heal considering craig being let go. Even though I would still like to see one more bat helping us out, if we continue to win, it kind of looks as though we might be ok without it.

 

Not many winning teams have such a weak link as we do at 3B. The Sox have a long history of addressing glaring weaknesses during seasons where they think they have a good chance at winning it all. Last year, we traded for Ziegler. We even traded for Aaron Hill, when we had a much better situation at 3B with Shaw.

 

I am 90% sure the plan is to at least trade for a decent 3Bman like Lowrie or call up Devers and giving him a significant role at 3B.

 

I do not think Sox management is prepared to risk it all on putrid 3B production.

 

(I'm fine without trading away anymore prospects. I'd also be fine, if we trade away a mid level prospect or two to go for it all this year. I'm not for trading Devers, Groome and Travis. We will need these low cost-hopefully high performing players to fill out our future roster and allow us to keep oiur fine young stars and Chris Sale.

Edited July 1, 2017 by moonslav59

[Nick]

Moon, how long do we hang on to Blake Swihart? I'm getting more and more comfortable with the tandem we have now. Can he be the 4th OF or the 3rd catcher? What trade value does he have?

 

If and when Devers moves up, I'm comfortable with middle of the road offensive catchers with superior defensive skills.

[harmony]

Moon, how long do we hang on to Blake Swihart? I'm getting more and more comfortable with the tandem we have now. Can he be the 4th OF or the 3rd catcher? What trade value does he have?

 

If and when Devers moves up, I'm comfortable with middle of the road offensive catchers with superior defensive skills.

 

I'm not Moon, but I offered this take on Blake Swihart earlier in this thread:

Last November, in comparing Blake Swihart with Jarrod Saltalamacchia at a similar age, I wrote: "Swihart's performance in the first four months of 2017 should determine whether he has more, less or about the same trade value as Saltalamacchia had on July 31, 2010" when the Texas Rangers traded Saltalamacchia to the Red Sox for the humble package of Chris McGuiness, Roman Mendez, Michael Thomas and cash.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/17857-Swihart-To-Undergo-Ankle-Surgery/page6

 

In February I questioned projections that had Seattle catcher Mike Zunino outproducing Swihart this year (although I suggested that the Red Sox would be pleased if Swihart's age 25 season matched the age 25 season of Zunino in 2016 when Zunino started the year at Triple A).

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/17652-Christian-Vazquez/page73

 

I doubt the Red Sox will trade low on Swihart so the Sox are unlikely to break up the catching trio of Swihart, Christian Vazquez and Sandy Leon.

[moonslav59]

Moon, how long do we hang on to Blake Swihart? I'm getting more and more comfortable with the tandem we have now. Can he be the 4th OF or the 3rd catcher? What trade value does he have?

 

If and when Devers moves up, I'm comfortable with middle of the road offensive catchers with superior defensive skills.

 

I thought we should have traded Swihart after his first ML season. His stock is not as high as it was then, and I'm not sure we'd get what he is worth by trading him now of this winter. I'd keep Swihart.

 

Yes, I do think Swihart could be our 4th OF'er, 3rd catcher and maybe even back up corner IF'er some day. Maybe that is where his best value could be. If Holt retires, that idea makes even more sense.

 

I think we are best suited trading an Ockimey and or Lakins type(s) for a decent 3B rental.

 

I think we stand pat with the pen in hopes that Ross or Smith give us a boost when needed. We also have Workman, Taylor, Maddox and maybe even Brian Johnson to fill out the pen, if we need help.

 

The starting pitching situation should be clearer by the deadline. Hopefully, ERod will have had 3-4 starts by then, and maybe B Johnson might look like a healthy depth option by then.

 

To me, I'd address the 3B need at the deadline and maybe look for a waiver wire deal in August, if another serious need arises.

[Kimmi]

It would be rather ironic if this team had no issues at gutting the farm system to build a league contender but was reluctant to trade pieces to put us over the top and fix some fatal flaws.

 

It's like spending 250K on a Lamborghini but unwilling to spend a little extra on a 4th tire so you can actually drive it.

 

Most who know me or remember knew how against I was depleting the farm but we've already thrown 95% of our eggs in one basket. We have a significantly better chance at winning the next three years than we do the following three years after that.

 

You reap what you sow. I'm not advocating trading elite guys like Devers or Groome but if the right trade is there no one should be off the table.

 

As of now, the Sox are holding their own with Marrero/Lin at 3B. IMO, that's the main reason why he hasn't made a move yet.

 

I agree with your opinion that it would be kind of ironic if Dombrowski refuses to go that last step to put the team over the top. IMO, he'll wait the situation out a little longer, and if he feels that Moustakas or whoever is the difference maker, he won't hesitate to trade some of our remaining prospects.

[Nick]

As of now, the Sox are holding their own with Marrero/Lin at 3B. IMO, that's the main reason why he hasn't made a move yet.

 

I agree with your opinion that it would be kind of ironic if Dombrowski refuses to go that last step to put the team over the top. IMO, he'll wait the situation out a little longer, and if he feels that Moustakas or whoever is the difference maker, he won't hesitate to trade some of our remaining prospects.

 

I would first wait and see where E Rod is. I then would wait and see how close C Smith is to returning. I suppose Fister could fill in for E Rod. I still think we need another bullpen arm. I would try our guys in the minors first. I think we have some options there.

 

I'd still like to see us give Devers a look. This is sort of 'freebie' year for Devers. We will still have him under team control for 2018-2023. He's NOT going to need all of his 'options'. I doubt he'll run into using up all of his option years. All he needs to do is to play some defense. I just can't see him hitting worse than Marrero.

 

I just hate to give up top talent at this point for a rental. Say what you will but Kimbrel had three years, Pomeranz, two and a half years and Sale had three years left on their contract at the time of the trade. Ziegler was the only rental, and we needed him.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Nick

[Kimmi]

I would first wait and see where E Rod is. I then would wait and see how close C Smith is to returning. I suppose Fister could fill in for E Rod. I still think we need another bullpen arm. I would try our guys in the minors first. I think we have some options there.

 

I'd still like to see us give Devers a look. This is sort of 'freebie' year for Devers. We will still have him under team control for 2018-2023. He's NOT going to need all of his 'options'. I doubt he'll run into using up all of his option years. All he needs to do is to play some defense. I just can't see him hitting worse than Marrero.

 

I just hate to give up top talent at this point for a rental. Say what you will but Kimbrel had three years, Pomeranz, two and a half years and Sale had three years left on their contract at the time of the trade. Reliever from Arizona was the only rental, and we needed him.

 

One thing with calling up Devers now is, what if he fails and has to be sent back down. Then our cost to get a 3B through trade goes up in the eyes of the other GMs.

 

I am with you about trading top talent for a rental. I would not do it. But I wouldn't put it past Dombrowski to do it if he thinks the rental is the difference maker.

[Nick]

One thing with calling up Devers now is, what if he fails and has to be sent back down. Then our cost to get a 3B through trade goes up in the eyes of the other GMs.

 

I am with you about trading top talent for a rental. I would not do it. But I wouldn't put it past Dombrowski to do it if he thinks the rental is the difference maker.

 

Hopefully that someone will be better than Aaron Hill.

[cp176]

I thought we should have traded Swihart after his first ML season. His stock is not as high as it was then, and I'm not sure we'd get what he is worth by trading him now of this winter. I'd keep Swihart.

 

Yes, I do think Swihart could be our 4th OF'er, 3rd catcher and maybe even back up corner IF'er some day. Maybe that is where his best value could be. If Holt retires, that idea makes even more sense.

 

I think we are best suited trading an Ockimey and or Lakins type(s) for a decent 3B rental.

 

I think we stand pat with the pen in hopes that Ross or Smith give us a boost when needed. We also have Workman, Taylor, Maddox and maybe even Brian Johnson to fill out the pen, if we need help.

 

The starting pitching situation should be clearer by the deadline. Hopefully, ERod will have had 3-4 starts by then, and maybe B Johnson might look like a healthy depth option by then.

 

To me, I'd address the 3B need at the deadline and maybe look for a waiver wire deal in August, if another serious need arises.

 

Question - once again - why would anyone give up anyone for a rental third baseman for a team that is currently leading their division? Doubt very much that this happens. if a trade is made, it won't be for a rental (I hope). What I really don't understand is how anyone who has been critical of DD's wheelings and dealings could even be thinking about trading any minor leaguers at all for someone to hold a job simply for the rest of this year. Giving up anyone like an Ockimey or a Larkins for a rest of the year rental would be akin to giving up many of the players DD gave has given up already - the big difference being that most were signed to multi-year contracts. I'm sorry but advocating for that sounds very hypocritical to me.

[Hugh2]

As of now, the Sox are holding their own with Marrero/Lin at 3B. IMO, that's the main reason why he hasn't made a move yet.

 

I agree with your opinion that it would be kind of ironic if Dombrowski refuses to go that last step to put the team over the top. IMO, he'll wait the situation out a little longer, and if he feels that Moustakas or whoever is the difference maker, he won't hesitate to trade some of our remaining prospects.

 

I'd like to think of it more as treading water....as in eventually you're going to drown and die. Perhaps they can stay afloat long enough for someone like Devers to arise.

 

I get that they are good on defense, but having a sub .600 OPS equates to being a black hole in the lineup and with the offense down at other positions that really makes them stick out at 3rd. We've seen how much scoring runs has hurt this team at times this year.

 

If there is an upgrade to be made that could put this team over the top, it's at 3B.

[cp176]

One thing with calling up Devers now is, what if he fails and has to be sent back down. Then our cost to get a 3B through trade goes up in the eyes of the other GMs.

 

I am with you about trading top talent for a rental. I would not do it. But I wouldn't put it past Dombrowski to do it if he thinks the rental is the difference maker.

 

 

Devers stock probably is currently quite high in the eyes of many GMs, so are you suggesting in a way that trading him for a Moustakis right now would actually be better than bringing him up because he might fail. I don't think that you are advocating for that to happen but I think that you can see what I mean. Personally I would see Moustakis as an upgrade right now but I'm not sure that he is the big answer going forward. i would like to see Devers/Chavis get their shots. I don't worry too much about them being permanently scarred by the experience if things don't go so well.

[Kimmi]

I'd like to think of it more as treading water....as in eventually you're going to drown and die. Perhaps they can stay afloat long enough for someone like Devers to arise.

 

I get that they are good on defense, but having a sub .600 OPS equates to being a black hole in the lineup and with the offense down at other positions that really makes them stick out at 3rd. We've seen how much scoring runs has hurt this team at times this year.

 

If there is an upgrade to be made that could put this team over the top, it's at 3B.

 

I have no doubt that, eventually, Dombrowski will upgrade at 3B.

[Kimmi]

Devers stock probably is currently quite high in the eyes of many GMs, so are you suggesting in a way that trading him for a Moustakis right now would actually be better than bringing him up because he might fail. I don't think that you are advocating for that to happen but I think that you can see what I mean. Personally I would see Moustakis as an upgrade right now but I'm not sure that he is the big answer going forward. i would like to see Devers/Chavis get their shots. I don't worry too much about them being permanently scarred by the experience if things don't go so well.

 

No, what I'm suggesting is that if Devers comes up and fails, then other GMs know that our need to trade for a 3B has become more urgent. I am against trading any more of our top prospects, especially for a rental.

 

If I'm Dombrowski, I'm looking for a reasonable deal for a quality 3B. If one does not exist, then I'm calling up Devers.

[cp176]

I'm pretty sure that I agree with you here as well. Although I would say that if I traded for a third baseman, my thinking would be that he would be the guy doing the job for us for awhile. I'm not sure that that person is out there. i still think that as long as we are winning, that upgrade is going to come from within if it comes at all. i would still bat betts third! lol

[moonslav59]

Question - once again - why would anyone give up anyone for a rental third baseman for a team that is currently leading their division? Doubt very much that this happens. if a trade is made, it won't be for a rental (I hope). What I really don't understand is how anyone who has been critical of DD's wheelings and dealings could even be thinking about trading any minor leaguers at all for someone to hold a job simply for the rest of this year. Giving up anyone like an Ockimey or a Larkins for a rest of the year rental would be akin to giving up many of the players DD gave has given up already - the big difference being that most were signed to multi-year contracts. I'm sorry but advocating for that sounds very hypocritical to me.

 

I've never been against trading prospects. There's no hypocrisy. I'm usually for making a bigger package deal for a better player than trades like Espi for Pom. (I loved the Sale trade and have often suggested those sorts of trades.)

 

Now, that doesn't mean I want us to trade our whole farm away either. I'm more in Kimmi's camp when it comes to not wanting to empty the farm, but I'm talking more about saving more top prospects.

 

I like the Ziegler trade last year, and that was a rental.

 

I'm okay with trading a mid level prospect for a rental, if I think it significantly improves the team.

 

I like to balance the short and long views, but now that we seem to have just about broken the farm for a 3 year window, I don't think it is hypocritical to think it might be a good idea (key word: might) to trade someone like Ockimey or Lakins for a 3B rental.

 

Our 3Bmen suck badly. It is such a weak link that I do not buy the philosophy that we are winning now with Lin/Marrero, so there is no need to make changes. When we reach the playoffs, every little edge can be a difference maker.

 

I want to keep Devers, Groome and Travis. I would not trade any of them for any rental. I think between Devers, Travis, Longhi, Chavis and Dalbec, we should be fine at 3B, 1B and DH into the extended future without really needing Ockimey's chances at being a force.

[moonslav59]

Question - once again - why would anyone give up anyone for a rental third baseman for a team that is currently leading their division?

 

Ask why we traded for Aaron Hill last year, when we had a better 3B situation than we have now.

[Hugh2]

Question - once again - why would anyone give up anyone for a rental third baseman for a team that is currently leading their division?

 

Ask why we traded for Aaron Hill last year, when we had a better 3B situation than we have now.

 

Teams in our position make major upgrades all the time, it's actually the norm.

How often do teams in 1st place grab a bat, a late inning reliever, a starter, and all of whom could be high priced rentals for a run ?

 

There's 6 division leaders, plus everyone else who is in the hunt and they ain't just thinking about winning the division.