Farrell

[notin]

Well no, I don't think I'm picking and choosing when I suggest that every at-bat in that 1978 playoff game was a clutch moment. It was a classic example of a high leverage game.

 

Right. Not every at bat in a high leverage game is a clutch moment. That is one reason I don't like using post-season stats to define clutch...

[Bellhorn04]

Another fun fact. Guidry lost only 3 games that year. In all three, the opposing starting pitcher was named Mike. The Sox starter that day? Mike Torrez. Fourth time was not a charm...

 

I remember one of those losses pretty well. It came on September 20 against the Jays and Mike Willis (had to look up the date and the guy's name).

 

What was so memorable was that it was the first game of a doubleheader, and the Jays were also leading in the second game 2-0, but the damn Yankees rallied for 3 runs in the 9th to get a crucial split.

[cp176]

So it sounds like for you that clutch is based on the clutch player feeling they will succeed and is not dependent upon actual results in clutch situations.

 

no not really - the results ultimately are what really count isn't it. You need things defined and statistical proof to support all of your arguments. I'm happy for you. We come from two different directions - I do not need to prove what a clutch player or performance is. You don't need to believe in what I believe in. That is fine. In the world I lived in and experiened, I'm fairly comfortable in knowing that I have some idea about what I am talking about. In your world, wherever or whatever it might be, you probably are pretty sure that you are right. Good

[Spudboy]

Deniers! We have Really Great Clutch Hitters! Covfefe!

 

PS: Boston Red Sox won the AL East in spite of JF. FACT!

 

Hahahahahahahahaha!11!

[notin]

I remember one of those losses pretty well. It came on September 20 against the Jays and Mike Willis (had to look up the date and the guy's name).

 

What was so memorable was that it was the first game of a doubleheader, and the Jays were also leading in the second game 2-0, but the damn Yankees rallied for 3 runs in the 9th to get a crucial split.

 

Mike Willis was the one I remembered.

 

I think the other two were Mike Flanagan (Orioles) and Mike Caldwell (Brewers). But I could be wrong...

[devildavid]

no not really - the results ultimately are what really count isn't it. You need things defined and statistical proof to support all of your arguments. I'm happy for you. We come from two different directions - I do not need to prove what a clutch player or performance is. You don't need to believe in what I believe in. That is fine. In the world I lived in and experiened, I'm fairly comfortable in knowing that I have some idea about what I am talking about. In your world, wherever or whatever it might be, you probably are pretty sure that you are right. Good

 

So if it is dependent on results, won't there be some form of statistical evidence to support clutch or not? It isn't that I need it, but without some form of evidence, the concept of clutch becomes a belief that in your view can only be experienced by those who participated in competitive sports. But as far as I know, none of us here actually sat next to David Ortiz as a teammate. We all observed him from a distance as fans, and that is the vantage point we are all coming from despite our past experiences. We all also have access to a plethora of statistics online. So in that regard, I don't consider anyone's point of view special in regard to discussing clutch.

[devildavid]

ad nauseum

 

Ahhh yes... the last bastion of a person who knows he's losing - picking apart the terminology,

 

Having the last word in a "debate" doesn't make one right. It only proves that they're the stubborner one.

 

I'm not trying to prove anything, that's your hangup.

[devildavid]

Well no, I don't think I'm picking and choosing when I suggest that every at-bat in that 1978 playoff game was a clutch moment. It was a classic example of a high leverage game.

 

By your own subjective determination.

[devildavid]

Ted wasn't clutch. david Ortiz was.

 

How was Ted not clutch? If anything, he might be the greatest clutch hitter who ever played the game, if such a thing exists.

[Slasher9]

How was Ted not clutch? If anything, he might be the greatest clutch hitter who ever played the game, if such a thing exists.

 

i was wrong. you guys changed my mind. Ted was a clutch hitter just like david ortiz.

[S5Dewey]

I'm not trying to prove anything, that's your hangup.

 

I'm the guy who's been saying all along that there's room for both opinions and you're the one who's saying that there's no room in your world for mine. As I posted earlier, I frankly don't care what you think but you keep trying to "enlighten" me.

 

I can't say it any better than cp176 did.

 

"no not really - the results ultimately are what really count isn't it. You need things defined and statistical proof to support all of your arguments. I'm happy for you. We come from two different directions - I do not need to prove what a clutch player or performance is. You don't need to believe in what I believe in. That is fine. In the world I lived in and experiened, I'm fairly comfortable in knowing that I have some idea about what I am talking about. In your world, wherever or whatever it might be, you probably are pretty sure that you are right. Good"

 

Have a REALLY nice day now.

[Spudboy]

It's the same old story here on Talksox.

 

Someone always has to have the biggest penis.

[greenwell]

It's the same old story here on Talksox.

 

Someone always has to have the biggest penis.

 

Shouldn't this comment be on the Judge thread?

[Bellhorn04]

By your own subjective determination.

 

I don't think it's subjective at all. It was an elimination game.

[mvp 78]

It's the same old story here on Talksox.

 

Someone always has to have the biggest penis.

 

It's subjectively determined who has the biggest penis though. Need to factor in width, length and shape!

[moonslav59]

Shouldn't this comment be on the Judge thread?

 

Judge's is a roid-induced shriveled up worm.

[devildavid]

i was wrong. you guys changed my mind. Ted was a clutch hitter just like david ortiz.

 

Cool.

[FredLynn]

It's subjectively determined who has the biggest penis though. Need to factor in width, length and shape!

 

And pictures to prove it.................no..............wait....................never mind.

[devildavid]

I'm the guy who's been saying all along that there's room for both opinions and you're the one who's saying that there's no room in your world for mine. As I posted earlier, I frankly don't care what you think but you keep trying to "enlighten" me.

 

I can't say it any better than cp176 did.

 

"no not really - the results ultimately are what really count isn't it. You need things defined and statistical proof to support all of your arguments. I'm happy for you. We come from two different directions - I do not need to prove what a clutch player or performance is. You don't need to believe in what I believe in. That is fine. In the world I lived in and experiened, I'm fairly comfortable in knowing that I have some idea about what I am talking about. In your world, wherever or whatever it might be, you probably are pretty sure that you are right. Good"

 

Have a REALLY nice day now.

 

If this board is just to share opinions and not debate them at all, fine. That seems a bit boring. So if I say that Marv Throneberry was the greatest hitter in history it's just an opinion and we are all cool.

[S5Dewey]

If this board is just to share opinions and not debate them at all, fine. That seems a bit boring. So if I say that Marv Throneberry was the greatest hitter in history it's just an opinion and we are all cool.

 

That's fine with me. I was taught when growing up that "Every person is entitled to their own opinion no matter how much of a crackpot they are,"

[cp176]

So if it is dependent on results, won't there be some form of statistical evidence to support clutch or not? It isn't that I need it, but without some form of evidence, the concept of clutch becomes a belief that in your view can only be experienced by those who participated in competitive sports. But as far as I know, none of us here actually sat next to David Ortiz as a teammate. We all observed him from a distance as fans, and that is the vantage point we are all coming from despite our past experiences. We all also have access to a plethora of statistics online. So in that regard, I don't consider anyone's point of view special in regard to discussing clutch.

 

yes - it is dependent on results - guy makes clutch hit or shot - we win - I have seen him do it on a number of different occasions - he is a clutch player who quite often comes through in the clutch.

[devildavid]

yes - it is dependent on results - guy makes clutch hit or shot - we win - I have seen him do it on a number of different occasions - he is a clutch player who quite often comes through in the clutch.

 

Now we have a measure. So what what success percentage do you think is the minimum qualification for clutch?

[cp176]

Now we have a measure. So what what success percentage do you think is the minimum qualification for clutch?

 

That is not important to me. Mine would likely change. Just like rules sometimes just have to be fluid for me. As I have said many times here, not everything I believe in has to calculated or statistically proven to content me or make me happy.

[devildavid]

That is not important to me. Mine would likely change. Just like rules sometimes just have to be fluid for me. As I have said many times here, not everything I believe in has to calculated or statistically proven to content me or make me happy.

 

The problem with this approach is that almost every hitter could qualify as clutch.

[cp176]

The problem with this approach is that almost every hitter could qualify as clutch.

 

It would depend upon your personal interpretation as to what it is wouldn't it? Mine would be very stingy.

[Maxbialystock]

Whoops. Leadoff dinger off of Maddox. Must be a another tired arm. Hell, Kelly looked a little tired on the 2 run single he gave up. Farrell needs to manage these guys innings better because no way, no how can the Astros hit this well. Farrell and Farrell alone is responsible for those 4 dingers and 8 runs.

[Maxbialystock]

Back to Kelly's tired arm. Anybody else notice those two horrible curves that bounced in front of the plate with the bases loaded yet? Only a tired arm can do that. Farrell is one of the most abusive, senseless managers these tired old eyes have ever seen. Pitchers, especially sensitive, skinny guys like Sale, need to handled very, very carefully. Kelly has been so mistreated he's stopped shaving--a sure sign of a resentful player.

[devildavid]

It would depend upon your personal interpretation as to what it is wouldn't it? Mine would be very stingy.

 

So what is your stingy criteria based on?

[devildavid]

Back to Kelly's tired arm. Anybody else notice those two horrible curves that bounced in front of the plate with the bases loaded yet? Only a tired arm can do that. Farrell is one of the most abusive, senseless managers these tired old eyes have ever seen. Pitchers, especially sensitive, skinny guys like Sale, need to handled very, very carefully. Kelly has been so mistreated he's stopped shaving--a sure sign of a resentful player.

 

You are right. We certainly can't put any blame on Farrell. Unfortunately, Sale's pattern of late season swoons continues. I had my fingers crossed that maybe pitching in the playoffs would be different. I expected the worst and hoped for the best. As great as Sale is, he seems to have a fatal weakness. It's not how you start, but how you finish. Farrell correctly pitched his ace in game 1, but late season Sale just doesn't have it Bummer.

Edited October 5, 2017 by devildavid

[oldtimer]

Back to Kelly's tired arm. Anybody else notice those two horrible curves that bounced in front of the plate with the bases loaded yet? Only a tired arm can do that. Farrell is one of the most abusive, senseless managers these tired old eyes have ever seen. Pitchers, especially sensitive, skinny guys like Sale, need to handled very, very carefully. Kelly has been so mistreated he's stopped shaving--a sure sign of a resentful player.

 

This kind of post is tiresome.