Farrell

[Spudboy]

And you set the rules? Your argument and logic is fatuous BS. Clutch is not a label like a clothing size. And no one is making a list of clutch players or a list of chokers. Where would the cutoff be? Your insistence on a definitive measure is really in the realm of dopey. Your insistence that you are right is downright obnoxious.

 

That is the way these guys are, mostly.

 

They, and only they, know what is right and they will never concede that they are not right.

 

They sound like a bunch of Russian women even though most of them are men.

[Bellhorn04]

You're assuming that's the only reason we claim clutch hitters do not exist.

 

I've said no such thing.

[cp176]

Well, first of all, it's narrow-minded to assume sports and athletes are the only people who deal with high pressure situations.

 

But even then, success in high pressure once doesn't prove the ability to excel in high pressure repeatedly...

 

Well - Notin first of all really that is all I'm talking about here - the sports world. I am absolutely sure that there are many people who can get a job done in high pressure situations better than I can. That isn't even debatable. They would be clutch as well. I played, taught, and coached, I have enough common sense and knowledge to know that I could not consummate a deal like my brother in law in the finance world can and does. I haven't lived his life, I know my limitations. He makes a lot more money than I did as well. On the other hand, although he was a pretty good athlete in the day, he also understands that there are things that I have done in my world of athletics that he could not do and he respects me for it. I have no clue what it means to even compete at the level the people we are talking about do but I have at least sampled some of the things they do. You may think that I am narrow minded, maybe I am. I live in a small sports dominated world. Have to have a grasp of what you can and and cannot understand. You have your opinion - others have theirs. I'm not competing with you. Don't you have to admit though that there are plenty of people out there who want to think that they know everything about everything?

[moonslav59]

Don't you have to admit though that there are plenty of people out there who want to think that they know everything about everything?

 

Yes. But, I don't think it is notin or myself.

 

We give our opinions- like you and others do. Just because we may not say, "I believe this..." or "My opinion is..." every post, doesn't mean we make our statements with the intent that they be taken as facts and not as opinions.

[devildavid]

I said you win. Can't you take yes for an answer. But it is all just opinion. On that, you are DFW.

 

It is not just opinion. Clutch is unknown until a hitter performs. You can't see clutch in a hitter without evidence based on actual performance. Believing someone is clutch is meaningless without evidence to support it. I could believe Marv Throneberry is the greatest hitter who ever lived. It is just an opinion. But anyone can question what it is based on.

[Slasher9]

Clutch = God = Love = Global Warming

they all exist. some dont believe in them. we call them deniers.

[devildavid]

Clutch = God = Love = Global Warming

they all exist. some dont believe in them. we call them deniers.

 

You're batting .500.

[devildavid]

And you set the rules? Your argument and logic is fatuous BS. Clutch is not a label like a clothing size. And no one is making a list of clutch players or a list of chokers. Where would the cutoff be? Your insistence on a definitive measure is really in the realm of dopey. Your insistence that you are right is downright obnoxious.

 

So it seems clutch is a vague belief that is whatever the believer wants it to be. I can claim anything I want about who is clutch or not. There is no basis for debate, it is much like a religion that you either believe or don't regardless of evidence. Clutch apparently doesn't really mean anything.

 

I believe Marv Throneberry was clutch.

[mvp 78]

"David Ortiz: The Greatest Clutch Hitter in the History of the Boston Red Sox"

 

So it is written, so it shall be.

[Slasher9]

. Clutch apparently doesn't really mean anything.

.

Actually, according to my man Webster it means something:

clutch1

kləCH/

verb

verb: clutch; 3rd person present: clutches; past tense: clutched; past participle: clutched; gerund or present participle: clutching

 

1.

grasp or seize (something) tightly or eagerly.

"he stood clutching a microphone"

synonyms: grip, grasp, clasp, cling to, hang on to, clench, hold More

"she clutched his arm"

reach for, snatch at, make a grab for, catch at, claw at

"she saved herself by clutching at a branch"

become nervous and panicked.

"doctors could clutch up and lose control as easily as anyone"

 

noun

noun: clutch; plural noun: clutches

 

1.

a tight grasp or an act of grasping something.

"she made a clutch at his body"

a person's power or control, especially when perceived as cruel or inescapable.

plural noun: someone's clutches

"she escaped the clutches of her temperamental family"

synonyms: power, control, domination, command, rule, tyranny; More

hands, hold, grip, grasp, claws, jaws, tentacles;

custody

"she's married to a hateful man who has her in his clutches"

2.

North American

a slim, flat handbag without handles or a strap.

3.

a mechanism for connecting and disconnecting a vehicle engine from its transmission system.

the pedal operating a vehicle's clutch.

 

adjectiveUSinformal

adjective: clutch; comparative adjective: clutcher; superlative adjective: clutchest

 

1.

(in sport) denoting or occurring in a critical situation in which the outcome of a game or competition is at stake.

[mvp 78]

adjectiveUSinformal

adjective: clutch; comparative adjective: clutcher; superlative adjective: clutchest

 

1.

(in sport) denoting or occurring in a critical situation in which the outcome of a game or competition is at stake.

 

Wrong. There are no critical situations in sport. It's all just LOL random.

[Elktonnick]

Interesting discussion almost metaphysical in nature. What is clutch? On a more practical basis, who first coined the term "clutch" to describe a key or crucial moment in an athletic contest? Why clutch and not some other word?

[Slasher9]

Interesting discussion almost metaphysical in nature. What is clutch? On a more practical basis, who first coined the term "clutch" to describe a key or crucial moment in an athletic contest? Why clutch and not some other word?

according to Webster 1929 was the first use for sport:

clutch

adjective

Definition of clutch

1 :made or done in a crucial situation

 

a clutch hit

 

2 :successful in a crucial situation

 

a clutch pitcher

 

a clutch hitter

 

See clutch defined for English-language learners

Examples of clutch in a Sentence

 

She scored a clutch basket.

 

First Known Use of clutch

 

1929

[devildavid]

Actually, according to my man Webster it means something:

clutch1

kləCH/

verb

verb: clutch; 3rd person present: clutches; past tense: clutched; past participle: clutched; gerund or present participle: clutching

 

1.

grasp or seize (something) tightly or eagerly.

"he stood clutching a microphone"

synonyms: grip, grasp, clasp, cling to, hang on to, clench, hold More

"she clutched his arm"

reach for, snatch at, make a grab for, catch at, claw at

"she saved herself by clutching at a branch"

become nervous and panicked.

"doctors could clutch up and lose control as easily as anyone"

 

noun

noun: clutch; plural noun: clutches

 

1.

a tight grasp or an act of grasping something.

"she made a clutch at his body"

a person's power or control, especially when perceived as cruel or inescapable.

plural noun: someone's clutches

"she escaped the clutches of her temperamental family"

synonyms: power, control, domination, command, rule, tyranny; More

hands, hold, grip, grasp, claws, jaws, tentacles;

custody

"she's married to a hateful man who has her in his clutches"

2.

North American

a slim, flat handbag without handles or a strap.

3.

a mechanism for connecting and disconnecting a vehicle engine from its transmission system.

the pedal operating a vehicle's clutch.

 

adjectiveUSinformal

adjective: clutch; comparative adjective: clutcher; superlative adjective: clutchest

 

1.

(in sport) denoting or occurring in a critical situation in which the outcome of a game or competition is at stake.

 

You forgot the context of my post. I was responding to believers in clutch refusing to define clutch in regard to a quality a player possesses. I have never said there are not clutch situations or clutch performances. I question whether it is a quality a player has that is not connected to actual outcomes on the field.

[Elktonnick]

Excellent but that tells us only when not who or why. Upon reflection while it is sometimes used in all sports it seems to be used primarily in baseball.

[devildavid]

Wrong. There are no critical situations in sport. It's all just LOL random.

 

Why can't it be both?

[Slasher9]

Excellent but that tells us only when not who or why. Upon reflection while it is sometimes used in all sports it seems to be used primarily in baseball.

 

The use of “clutch” to mean “a high-pressure situation or critical moment” was definitely popularized in sports, particularly baseball, where the term was in use by the 1920s. A poster to the mailing list of the American Dialect Society a few years ago suggested that the usage may have been drawn from the famous poem “Invictus” by the English poet W.E. Henley, which contains the line “In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud” (“fell” meaning “cruel or fierce,” as in “one fell swoop”). Inasmuch as “Invictus” (Latin for “unconquered”) was part of the standard English curriculum in many schools of the period, it’s certainly possible that the word simply popped into the mind of a sportswriter and grew from there.

 

But it’s equally likely that “in the clutch” meaning in the “moment of crisis” arose as a variant of “in the pinch,” also meaning “at a critical juncture,” which had been used in baseball since the first years of the 20th century. This “pinch” also gave us “pinch hitter,” a substitute batter who steps in when the team is in an especially tight spot.

[mvp 78]

Why can't it be both?

 

There are no verifiable crucial situations. It's all just SSS white noise. Nothing matters.

[Bellhorn04]

Of course there is no precise definition of a clutch hitter. There's no precise definition of a good hitter, or an ace pitcher, either.

[devildavid]

Of course there is no precise definition of a clutch hitter. There's no precise definition of a good hitter, or an ace pitcher, either.

 

No, we are able to distinguish good hitters and good pitchers from lesser ones using statistics. It doesn't need to be precise, just in the ballpark. The same with clutch. But with clutch we've got definitions that are all over the map.

[devildavid]

It will be interesting to see if Farrell makes any changes in his approach to base running in the postseason vs. the regular season. I'm hoping he eases up on the aggressive base running because each out each game looms much larger.

[Bellhorn04]

No, we are able to distinguish good hitters and good pitchers from lesser ones using statistics. It doesn't need to be precise, just in the ballpark. The same with clutch. But with clutch we've got definitions that are all over the map.

 

Is Christian Vazquez a good hitter, yes or no and why?

 

The definition of clutch really shouldn't be that difficult. It's not the most complex concept in the world. Of course you get a bunch of people together on a message board they're all going to have different ideas.

[Elktonnick]

The use of “clutch” to mean “a high-pressure situation or critical moment” was definitely popularized in sports, particularly baseball, where the term was in use by the 1920s. A poster to the mailing list of the American Dialect Society a few years ago suggested that the usage may have been drawn from the famous poem “Invictus” by the English poet W.E. Henley, which contains the line “In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud” (“fell” meaning “cruel or fierce,” as in “one fell swoop”). Inasmuch as “Invictus” (Latin for “unconquered”) was part of the standard English curriculum in many schools of the period, it’s certainly possible that the word simply popped into the mind of a sportswriter and grew from there.

 

But it’s equally likely that “in the clutch” meaning in the “moment of crisis” arose as a variant of “in the pinch,” also meaning “at a critical juncture,” which had been used in baseball since the first years of the 20th century. This “pinch” also gave us “pinch hitter,” a substitute batter who steps in when the team is in an especially tight spot.

 

Thank you quite illuminating. I see, however, that the metaphysical debate of what defines a clutch hitter continues unabated. I do hope those who care about such things can achieve ontological certitude.

[notin]

Well - Notin first of all really that is all I'm talking about here - the sports world. I am absolutely sure that there are many people who can get a job done in high pressure situations better than I can. That isn't even debatable. They would be clutch as well. I played, taught, and coached, I have enough common sense and knowledge to know that I could not consummate a deal like my brother in law in the finance world can and does. I haven't lived his life, I know my limitations. He makes a lot more money than I did as well. On the other hand, although he was a pretty good athlete in the day, he also understands that there are things that I have done in my world of athletics that he could not do and he respects me for it. I have no clue what it means to even compete at the level the people we are talking about do but I have at least sampled some of the things they do. You may think that I am narrow minded, maybe I am. I live in a small sports dominated world. Have to have a grasp of what you can and and cannot understand. You have your opinion - others have theirs. I'm not competing with you. Don't you have to admit though that there are plenty of people out there who want to think that they know everything about everything?

 

 

When you start insisting only players/athletes can understand clutch, you're devolving this whole argument back into a completely untrue but oft-repeated "the people on here who played the game believe in clutch but the people who didn't say it doesn't exist " counterargument. You don't need to havr played baseball to appreciate it. Just like you don't have to have appeared in s movie to appreciate it.

 

No one ever denied players do have clutch moments and come through in the clutch. The question on the table is about clutch hitters ' hitters who can ELEVATE their performance in key situations. Ortiz is the most obvious example, but did he ever perform BETTER in clutch situations than he did in non-clutch ones? He was a flat out great hitter in any circumstance, and found homself in many key situations over his career. While we all remember many big moments he came through, we also forget about (or dismiss or excuse) the ones he didn't. And his success rate in big "clutch" situations appears to have been the same as other ones. True or false?

[devildavid]

Is Christian Vazquez a good hitter, yes or no and why?

 

The definition of clutch really shouldn't be that difficult. It's not the most complex concept in the world. Of course you get a bunch of people together on a message board they're all going to have different ideas.

 

Vazquez was generally a good hitter in 2017. He'll need a longer career to determine if it is true in the long run.

 

The defenders of clutch are making it complex and they are also trying to define it as a belief instead of something for which you need evidence.

[illinoisredsox]

 

When you start insisting only players/athletes can understand clutch, you're devolving this whole argument back into a completely untrue but oft-repeated "the people on here who played the game believe in clutch but the people who didn't say it doesn't exist " counterargument. You don't need to havr played baseball to appreciate it. Just like you don't have to have appeared in s movie to appreciate it.

 

No one ever denied players do have clutch moments and come through in the clutch. The question on the table is about clutch hitters ' hitters who can ELEVATE their performance in key situations. Ortiz is the most obvious example, but did he ever perform BETTER in clutch situations than he did in non-clutch ones? He was a flat out great hitter in any circumstance, and found homself in many key situations over his career. While we all remember many big moments he came through, we also forget about (or dismiss or excuse) the ones he didn't. And his success rate in big "clutch" situations appears to have been the same as other ones. True or false?

 

Ortiz is actually an example of a player who did seem to elevate his game in key situations. Baseball Reference has a stat dealing with leverage (high, medium and low). They define leverage as how a situation affects win probability. Man on second late in a tie game = high leverage, same situation in a blowout = low leverage. Somewhat subjective, but instructional:

 

Ortiz's stats by leverage:

 

High - 1998 PAs, .292/.388/.556/.943

Medium - 3921 PAs, .299/.388/.571/.959

Low - 4162 PAs, .271/.368/.532/.900

 

His career slashline was .286/.380/.552/.931

 

He did seem to "bear down" when it counted. But the numbers still are not all that different than his overall career.

[cp176]

 

When you start insisting only players/athletes can understand clutch, you're devolving this whole argument back into a completely untrue but oft-repeated "the people on here who played the game believe in clutch but the people who didn't say it doesn't exist " counterargument. You don't need to havr played baseball to appreciate it. Just like you don't have to have appeared in s movie to appreciate it.

 

No one ever denied players do have clutch moments and come through in the clutch. The question on the table is about clutch hitters ' hitters who can ELEVATE their performance in key situations. Ortiz is the most obvious example, but did he ever perform BETTER in clutch situations than he did in non-clutch ones? He was a flat out great hitter in any circumstance, and found homself in many key situations over his career. While we all remember many big moments he came through, we also forget about (or dismiss or excuse) the ones he didn't. And his success rate in big "clutch" situations appears to have been the same as other ones. True or false?

 

Sigh - really. Did I actually say the things that you attribute to me. Maybe close I guess but if I actually said those words, must have been a in a weak moment.

[Bellhorn04]

And his success rate in big "clutch" situations appears to have been the same as other ones. True or false?

 

Simply comparing Ortiz's success rate in clutch situations to his success rate in non-clutch ones may not be meaningful because in clutch situations he may be facing better pitchers. You would also have to consider how other hitters compare in the two situations.

 

Also as I've said before I don't think a high leverage situation in April carries the same weight as one in a September pennant race.

 

There are a number of measurement issues.

[Slasher9]

ok....maybe david ortiz wasnt a clutch hitter. but Big Papi sure as f*** was.

[Bellhorn04]

Vazquez was generally a good hitter in 2017.

 

Vazquez's batting average of .290 made him a very good hitter by old school measures.

 

His OPS+ of 92, however, made him below average by new school measures.

 

Compared to other catchers he was just about average.

 

So he was either very good, average or below average, depending on your preferred metrics.