A Realistic View at 2017 Part II

[Bellhorn04]

Thank you for your defense of Ben. I, too, blame Lucchino for the Lester fiasco, among other things.

 

I find it a little unfair to use Lucchino as the scapegoat for all the bad stuff. Most of it is pure speculation with no actual documentation whatsoever.

[Kimmi]

I find it a little unfair to use Lucchino as the scapegoat for all the bad stuff. Most of it is pure speculation with no actual documentation whatsoever.

 

Of course it's all speculation, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it until someone shows me documentation otherwise. My opinion is not just formed out of the blue. There is good reason that I have the opinion that I do.

[Bellhorn04]

Of course it's all speculation, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it until someone shows me documentation otherwise. My opinion is not just formed out of the blue. There is good reason that I have the opinion that I do.

 

But what is the actual evidence that Lucchino was the one primarily responsible for the Lester fiasco?

[Kimmi]

But what is the actual evidence that Lucchino was the one primarily responsible for the Lester fiasco?

 

There is no actual evidence. It's all speculation. If there was evidence, we wouldn't be having this argument.

[Bellhorn04]

There is no actual evidence. It's all speculation. If there were evidence, we wouldn't be having this argument.

 

Let me ask this then. What precedent is there for Lucchino making a lowball offer like this?

 

Usually he's being accused of the 'splashy' signings. This was the complete opposite.

[a700hitter]

Ben blows. People just continue to make excuses for him.

[cp176]

if Ben had us here to help him ( not all of us because believe or not some of us really didn't like him) we would just be f---ing fantastic by now. It's History!

[Kimmi]

Let me ask this then. What precedent is there for Lucchino making a lowball offer like this?

 

Usually he's being accused of the 'splashy' signings. This was the complete opposite.

 

There is no precedent either.

[Bellhorn04]

There is no precedent either.

 

Thank you. The defense rests.

[dgalehouse]

It is hard to understand the Cherington nostalgia. Back to back , dismal last place finishes led to his dismissal. In Dombrowski's first year, we win the division. This year it seems that everything has gone wrong and the team has underachieved. However , if the season ended right now , the Sox are in the playoffs. And it is a good bet that things will get better as the weather heats up. You can spin things any way you want. You can dissect trades and signings. You can lament giving up prospects. But results are what matters. We are getting better results since Ben left.

[a700hitter]

It is hard to understand the Cherington nostalgia. Back to back , dismal last place finishes led to his dismissal. In Dombrowski's first year, we win the division. This year it seems that everything has gone wrong and the team has underachieved. However , if the season ended right now , the Sox are in the playoffs. And it is a good bet that things will get better as the weather heats up. You can spin things any way you want. You can dissect trades and signings. You can lament giving up prospects. But results are what matters. We are getting better results since Ben left.

Those were three completely depressing seasons.

[moonslav59]

Good to see JBJ heating it up a bit.

[Nick]

Good to see JBJ heating it up a bit.

 

We don't talk about positives here. It's Boston Red Sox afterall. Please don't pour a ray of sunshine into perpetual rain cloud hanging over Fenway.

[oldtimer]

I find it a little unfair to use Lucchino as the scapegoat for all the bad stuff. Most of it is pure speculation with no actual documentation whatsoever.

 

Francona's book implied many problems could be attributed to Lucchino.

[moonslav59]

Eric Wilbur...

 

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2015/08/03/red-sox-fans-should-be-frightened-about-a-future-without-larry-lucchino

 

Some quotes...

 

“Larry Lucchino runs the Red Sox,’’ principal team owner John Henry said in 2011.

 

...the guy who made the majority of the most important ones during the franchise’s glory years.

 

It’s not like Lucchino didn’t have his blunders (hiring manager Bobby Valentine, low-balling pitcher Jon Lester, his icy relationship with former general manager Theo Epstein, allowing Dr. Charles Steinberg to play his tape of Neil Diamond’s greatest hits while brainstorming ideas back in 2002), but it’s important to note that two of the Red Sox’ most-misguided free-agent blunders over the past five years are both assumed to be thanks to, in large part, Werner’s influence. As former Boston manager Terry Francona wrote in his recent book, Werner, who you might remember, drove the San Diego Padres into oblivion under his ownership, asked the former Red Sox manager to “win in a more exciting fashion.’’ According to the book, the result was the team signing Carl Crawford to a seven-year, $142-million deal. Pablo Sandoval and his Panda aura ooze being a Werner call, a way to sell the peripheral fan in the wake of a last-place finish and sell some hats to boot.

[moonslav59]

Michael Hurley... (July 2015)

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/07/23/hurley-somebody-needs-to-start-answering-for-red-sox-failure/'

 

Some quotes...

 

“Larry Lucchino runs the Red Sox.” That made sense, and it helped explain Theo Epstein’s departure. It also seemed to be the driving factor in the team’s hiring of manager Bobby Valentine prior to 2012, when it looked like new GM Ben Cherington wanted Dale Sveum. This all made sense....

 

That’s left Cherington to serve as a sacrificial lamb of sorts...Cherington is always quick to shoulder some blame, but he still totes the team’s philosophy as being the right one....

 

“The last two years, we just haven’t delivered. That’s the bottom line. No one more responsible than me for that,” Cherington said Wednesday. “I can’t look at any specific, single transaction and look back and say that didn’t make sense or that didn’t fit into strategy or direction we were going in. The bottom line is just in aggregate, the results haven’t been there. That’s on us, and we know that our fans deserve a lot better than what we’ve delivered the last two years, our ownership deserves better, and it’s up to us to figure out a way to get better.”

 

...But is Ben deflecting blame by pointing to the “strategy or direction” of the team? We still don’t know how much influence he actually has on making some of the franchise-altering decisions. Because between John Henry talking about his philosophy of not paying pitchers over 30s and how Larry Lucchino runs the Red Sox, it’s hard to know who’s in charge and who’s behind each particular move.

[mvp 78]

...But is Ben deflecting blame by pointing to the “strategy or direction” of the team? We still don’t know how much influence he actually has on making some of the franchise-altering decisions. Because between John Henry talking about his philosophy of not paying pitchers over 30s and how Larry Lucchino runs the Red Sox, it’s hard to know who’s in charge and who’s behind each particular move.

[/i]

 

And that's the main point. It's impossible to split hairs and blame a specific person for all the bad moves (Larry) and remove blame from someone else (Ben). At the end of the day, it's far easier to just give credit and blame to the acting GM at the time. Saying "Ben sucked in 2014 and 2015" is basically just saying "the front office sucked in 2014 and 2015."

[moonslav59]

And that's the main point. It's impossible to split hairs and blame a specific person for all the bad moves (Larry) and remove blame from someone else (Ben). At the end of the day, it's far easier to just give credit and blame to the acting GM at the time. Saying "Ben sucked in 2014 and 2015" is basically just saying "the front office sucked in 2014 and 2015."

 

..and credit as well, yes.

[mvp 78]

..and credit as well, yes.

 

As the TS saying goes, he had a great rack in 2013 and was just a boob in 2014 and 2015.

[moonslav59]

As the TS saying goes, he had a great rack in 2013 and was just a boob in 2014 and 2015.

 

Good analogies.

 

[moonslav59]

Sox 2017 XBH%

12.3 % Betts

11.1% Moreland

9.2% Vaz

8.3% Leon

8.3% Young

8.1% Bogey (still no HRs)

(7.7% MLB)

7.0% Beni

6.4% JBJ

6.4% HRam

5.7% Pedey

 

OBP

.396 Bogey

.395 Rutledge

.369 Vaz

.368 Betts

.358 Moreland

.355 Pedey

.355 Beni

.340 Young

.336 HRam

.300 Hernandez

.277 JBJ

.274 Leon

.269 Pablo

 

[moonslav59]

Last 365 days' OPS

 

 

.935 Betts

.852 HRam

.822 Young

.811 Leon

.803 Beni

.802 Pedey

.790 Bogey

.768 Moreland (with Sox only)

.759 JBJ

.739 Swihart

.709 Holt

.677 Marco

.636 Vaz

.517 Rutledge

 

[Kimmi]

Based on the philosophies of Ben and Theo, and those of 'businessman' Lucchino, I don't think it's impossible to attribute certain moves to certain people. There is no way for us to know anything for sure, but I think you can get a fairly good idea.

[a700hitter]

Based on the philosophies of Ben and Theo, and those of 'businessman' Lucchino, I don't think it's impossible to attribute certain moves to certain people. There is no way for us to know anything for sure, but I think you can get a fairly good idea.

Whether the idea emanated with LL or not, a truly effective GM would be able to make an effective case to convince him otherwise. It is on the GM's no matter which way you slice it.

[moonslav59]

Whether the idea emanated with LL or not, a truly effective GM would be able to make an effective case to convince him otherwise. It is on the GM's no matter which way you slice it.

 

In general, I agree, but a boss is a boss is a boss.

[Bellhorn04]

If you're going to pin the Lester fiasco on any one person I think Henry is the most logical candidate. It was him that made the statement about pitchers over 30, not Lucchino.

[moonslav59]

If you're going to pin the Lester fiasco on any one person I think Henry is the most logical candidate. It was him that made the statement about pitchers over 30, not Lucchino.

 

But, if he made that statement after being convinced By LL, then I'd pin the blame on LL.

 

The other issue is that the philosophy of over 30 pitcher signings changed from Ben to DD, so both were operating under different restrictions/guidelines.

[Bellhorn04]

But, if he made that statement after being convinced By LL, then I'd pin the blame on LL.

 

Well yeah, but I don't think there are any indications LL ever said anything like that.

 

The narrative on LL was that he liked the sexy, splashy, fan-pleasing signings.

 

The Lester fiasco did nothing but piss fans off.

[moonslav59]

Well yeah, but I don't think there are any indications LL ever said anything like that.

 

The narrative on LL was that he liked the sexy, splashy, fan-pleasing signings.

 

The Lester fiasco did nothing but piss fans off.

 

Fair enough. I guess I just don't see Henry as being the main driving force behind any baseball-related philosophy. I could be wrong.

 

I see him as the brains behind the business end of the management team, of course, signing "splashy free agents" older or not, could be a big part of the "business end".

[moonslav59]

soxprospects.com

 

...a scorching-hot Sam Travis, who was 5 for 6 with two doubles, making him 11 for 19 in the four-game set.