A Realistic View at 2017 Part II

[Jack Flap]

Would you have rather lowballed Lester they way Ben did or re-signed him to the Cubs contract?

 

Would you have rather signed Pablo and Hanley or gone in a different direction (Headley)?

 

I was in favor of keeping Lester and wanted Headley over Sandoval at the time.

[Slasher9]

once we lost out on Lester the smart play would have been Cueto. we would have won the WS last year with Cueto instead of chocker.

Lackey was never going to throw another pitch for the sox for that $550k salary. those who think he would have are naive.

I liked the sandoval signing from strictly marketing standpoint.

Hanley was an "overpay" but he earned his $$ last season by playing well (and by well i mean he didnt embarrass himself at all) at first base and was an absolute rbi machine. his bat will heat up this year but it is impossible for a DH to "earn" $22MM.

the porcello signing will end up being a bargain (thanks ben). the Pom trade was dumb as s***. (eff you DD). and DD has pretty much blown up the rest of our farm. the Sale trade was absolutely a no brainer.

but that still doesnt make up for the dumb ass trades for broken relievers or the overpay for a closer (you dont trade prospects AND give a large contract - you do one OR the other people...it's GM101).....

[Bellhorn04]

Lackey was never going to throw another pitch for the sox for that $550k salary. those who think he would have are naive.

 

Well, looking at it logically, I see no reason to think he wouldn't have.

 

He did it for St. Louis, had a good season and cashed in with a 2 year $32 million deal. He did the smart thing, in other words.

 

I don't see why not being traded would make him stupid instead of smart.

[mvp 78]

once we lost out on Lester the smart play would have been Cueto. we would have won the WS last year with Cueto instead of chocker.

Lackey was never going to throw another pitch for the sox for that $550k salary. those who think he would have are naive.

I liked the sandoval signing from strictly marketing standpoint.

Hanley was an "overpay" but he earned his $$ last season by playing well (and by well i mean he didnt embarrass himself at all) at first base and was an absolute rbi machine. his bat will heat up this year but it is impossible for a DH to "earn" $22MM.

the porcello signing will end up being a bargain (thanks ben). the Pom trade was dumb as s***. (eff you DD). and DD has pretty much blown up the rest of our farm. the Sale trade was absolutely a no brainer.

but that still doesnt make up for the dumb ass trades for broken relievers or the overpay for a closer (you dont trade prospects AND give a large contract - you do one OR the other people...it's GM101).....

 

I'm not here to litigate DD's shortcomings. This was just about the failures of 2014/2015 when Ben straight up trashed the place and put the Sox in a hole they are still trying to climb out of.

 

If they re-sign Lester, they don't have to sign Price to a crazy deal as they already have their "ace."

If the re-sign Miller, they don't have to trade for Kimbrel and they'd still have an additional stockpile of prospects in the pipeline.

If they don't sign Pablo and Hanley, they have enough money to pick up another FA pitcher like Max Scherzer.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I'm not here to litigate DD's shortcomings. This was just about the failures of 2014/2015 when Ben straight up trashed the place and put the Sox in a hole they are still trying to climb out of.

 

If they re-sign Lester, they don't have to sign Price to a crazy deal as they already have their "ace."

If the re-sign Miller, they don't have to trade for Kimbrel and they'd still have an additional stockpile of prospects in the pipeline.

If they don't sign Pablo and Hanley, they have enough money to pick up another FA pitcher like Max Scherzer.

 

If you find the need to "blame" someone for the Sox butchering of the Lester deal, at least get it right. Ben had about as much to do with that ridiculous initial offer to Lester as you did.

 

There are several reasons why Larry Lucchino is no longer involved in Front Office Ops for the Sox, and the Lester offer was certainly one of them.

[mvp 78]

If you find the need to "blame" someone for the Sox butchering of the Lester deal, at least get it right. Ben had about as much to do with that ridiculous initial offer to Lester as you did.

 

There are several reasons why Larry Lucchino is no longer involved in Front Office Ops for the Sox, and the Lester offer was certainly one of them.

 

This is pure speculation at best. There is no way to split hairs on who did what move. I say Ben is at fault for all of the moves of 2014/15 and gets all the credit for 2013 because we'll never know who was pushing for what. Ben was the top guy and everything lands at his desk.

[Wade Boggs]

I'm not here to litigate DD's shortcomings. This was just about the failures of 2014/2015 when Ben straight up trashed the place and put the Sox in a hole they are still trying to climb out of.

 

If they re-sign Lester, they don't have to sign Price to a crazy deal as they already have their "ace."

If the re-sign Miller, they don't have to trade for Kimbrel and they'd still have an additional stockpile of prospects in the pipeline.

If they don't sign Pablo and Hanley, they have enough money to pick up another FA pitcher like Max Scherzer.

 

This says it all. It's hope for the best now. I hope for DD, that Price can pitch good, if not he will never opt out... on the hook for 7 years

[Eddy Ballgame]

This is pure speculation at best. There is no way to split hairs on who did what move. I say Ben is at fault for all of the moves of 2014/15 and gets all the credit for 2013 because we'll never know who was pushing for what. Ben was the top guy and everything lands at his desk.

 

I didn't think it was any kind of "secret" about the Lester offer. Believe what you want, but Ben Cherington knew that the offer was out of touch with "reality." Lucchino is the guy who publicly defended the offer, not Lucchino, who was Ben's boss by the way.

[moonslav59]

Trashed the place.

 

They downgraded to Porcello from Lester. They downgraded from Lackey to Kelly. The moves they made in 2014 and offseason of 2015 trashed the place.

 

You're leaving out years of control. A value that is important.

[moonslav59]

They could have and should have gone after Miller at the end of the season. He wanted to play in Boston. They screwed this pooch too. Dumb.

 

Agreed, and had they done that the ERod trade would have looked even better.

[moonslav59]

I'm not here to litigate DD's shortcomings. This was just about the failures of 2014/2015 when Ben straight up trashed the place and put the Sox in a hole they are still trying to climb out of.

 

Then you probably think Theo trashed the place for Ben.

[Eddy Ballgame]

They could have and should have gone after Miller at the end of the season. He wanted to play in Boston. They screwed this pooch too. Dumb.

 

Agreed, and had they done that the ERod trade would have looked even better.

 

Miller said that the Sox offered him 4/32, which, unlike the Lester offer, was at least legit under the circumstances at the time.

[jacksonianmarch]

Ben trading Lester was really smart in retrospect. Getting Cespedes netted you a young guy who won't the CY last year. Not re-signing him was really stupid. Lester is a playoff ace who won in boston. Price is a playoff choker who had no history in boston.

 

I also don't think it's Lester or Price. I think DD comes in and adds Price to Lester and probably won't have to get Sale. That keeps Moncada as your 3b and your farm stocked. OR, it allows DD to properly replace Papi with a major offensive talent. Passing on Lester in FA was a big, big f*** up.

 

Lackey's trade looks epically bad in retrospect, but at the time, Craig was a perennial cleanup hitter coming off an injury plagued season and Kelly was a pitcher whose stuff was a lot better than his performance. That deal probably should have been for prospects rather than big leaguers

[harmony]

The John Lackey trade from a recent St. Louis perspective:

 

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/goold-who-really-won-cards-startling-lackey-craig-trade-with/article_5881dfd5-2ea7-5527-b895-33cc9da78466.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

[moonslav59]

Ben trading Lester was really smart in retrospect. Getting Cespedes netted you a young guy who won't the CY last year. Not re-signing him was really stupid. Lester is a playoff ace who won in boston. Price is a playoff choker who had no history in boston.

 

I also don't think it's Lester or Price. I think DD comes in and adds Price to Lester and probably won't have to get Sale. That keeps Moncada as your 3b and your farm stocked. OR, it allows DD to properly replace Papi with a major offensive talent. Passing on Lester in FA was a big, big f*** up.

 

Lackey's trade looks epically bad in retrospect, but at the time, Craig was a perennial cleanup hitter coming off an injury plagued season and Kelly was a pitcher whose stuff was a lot better than his performance. That deal probably should have been for prospects rather than big leaguers

 

Well said, but perhaps there was more to the Lackey story than simply saying we gave up 8 months of Lackey for 4+ years of Kelly and wasted money for Craig (not counted for tax purposes though).

 

If Kelly gives us 2-3 good years, I'm fine with losing a guy who seemingly didn't want to play here for no salary.

[Spudboy]

once we lost out on Lester the smart play would have been Cueto. we would have won the WS last year with Cueto instead of chocker.

Lackey was never going to throw another pitch for the sox for that $550k salary. those who think he would have are naive.

I liked the sandoval signing from strictly marketing standpoint.

Hanley was an "overpay" but he earned his $$ last season by playing well (and by well i mean he didnt embarrass himself at all) at first base and was an absolute rbi machine. his bat will heat up this year but it is impossible for a DH to "earn" $22MM.

the porcello signing will end up being a bargain (thanks ben). the Pom trade was dumb as s***. (eff you DD). and DD has pretty much blown up the rest of our farm. the Sale trade was absolutely a no brainer.

but that still doesnt make up for the dumb ass trades for broken relievers or the overpay for a closer (you dont trade prospects AND give a large contract - you do one OR the other people...it's GM101).....

 

I love this post. But:

 

I have said for 3 years that the Sox should have signed Lester as soon as MLB allowed after the WS. They f***ed that up and the Homer Bailey deal skewed the market for Lester. If the Sox had done as I say, I suspect they could have had Lester back for 5/110 -5/125. Done.

 

Not sure about Cueto. I like the guy but talk about someone who does not appear to be ready to play in Boston. This ain't Cincinnati and it ain'tKC. Plus his arm was dead or near dead at the time, I think.

 

I have never seen, nor have I heard any definitive proof that Lackey would not return for the minimum deal that he had agreed to. That argument is weak as water ( no offense ). And of course, he did play that year for the short money in SL.

 

In any case it's all milk over the damn at this point.

[Jasonbay44]

Ben trading Lester was really smart in retrospect. Getting Cespedes netted you a young guy who won't the CY last year. Not re-signing him was really stupid. Lester is a playoff ace who won in boston. Price is a playoff choker who had no history in boston.

 

I also don't think it's Lester or Price. I think DD comes in and adds Price to Lester and probably won't have to get Sale. That keeps Moncada as your 3b and your farm stocked. OR, it allows DD to properly replace Papi with a major offensive talent. Passing on Lester in FA was a big, big f*** up.

 

Lackey's trade looks epically bad in retrospect, but at the time, Craig was a perennial cleanup hitter coming off an injury plagued season and Kelly was a pitcher whose stuff was a lot better than his performance. That deal probably should have been for prospects rather than big leaguers

 

The Lackey trade was bad at the time and looks even worse now. I don't remember many people think it was a good trade, even at the time.

http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/17025-Lackey-to-the-Cardinals?highlight=JOhn+lackey

[Spudboy]

Did the Sox extend Craig after they acquired him or was he on his current deal when they got him?

 

It is of no consequence, really. I am just wondering exactly how stupid the deal was.

[a700hitter]

Did the Sox extend Craig after they acquired him or was he on his current deal when they got him?

 

It is of no consequence, really. I am just wondering exactly how stupid the deal was.

No extension.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn't think it was any kind of "secret" about the Lester offer. Believe what you want, but Ben Cherington knew that the offer was out of touch with "reality." Lucchino is the guy who publicly defended the offer, not Lucchino, who was Ben's boss by the way.

 

Cherington was part of the FO's public defense of the negotiations with Lester. He essentially complained about Lester's side not making a counter proposal to the 4/70 offer.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Cherington was part of the FO's public defense of the negotiations with Lester. He essentially complained about Lester's side not making a counter proposal to the 4/70 offer.

 

That was Lucchino who publicly defended it. Ben was livid over that offer. Scherzer had just rejected 160 extension from Detroit and Bailey re-upped with Cincy for 110. Offering Lester "80" was idiotic. All Lucchino on that deal.

[Bellhorn04]

That was Lucchino who publicly defended it. Ben was livid over that offer. Scherzer had just rejected 160 extension from Detroit and Bailey re-upped with Cincy for 110. Offering Lester "80" was idiotic. All Lucchino on that deal.

 

By Peter Abraham Globe Staff December 10, 2014

 

SAN DIEGO — Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington wished Jon Lester well on Wednesday and said his only regret was not having more of a chance to negotiate with the lefthander before he was traded in July.

 

“We would have liked to have had more chance for dialogue prior to the season,” said Cherington. “Why that didn’t happen, maybe there’s more than one reason. I think we can certainly learn from the process.”

 

Lester agreed to terms with the Cubs on a six-year, $155 million deal early Wednesday morning, rejecting a $135 million offer from the Sox. The pitcher personally called Cherington at 1 a.m. (ET) with the news.

 

Cherington said the team’s initial offer of four years and $70 million was meant as a starting point for negotiations. Lester and his agents instead chose not to negotiate once the season started.

[Spudboy]

By Peter Abraham Globe Staff December 10, 2014

 

SAN DIEGO — Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington wished Jon Lester well on Wednesday and said his only regret was not having more of a chance to negotiate with the lefthander before he was traded in July.

 

“We would have liked to have had more chance for dialogue prior to the season,” said Cherington. “Why that didn’t happen, maybe there’s more than one reason. I think we can certainly learn from the process.”

 

Lester agreed to terms with the Cubs on a six-year, $155 million deal early Wednesday morning, rejecting a $135 million offer from the Sox. The pitcher personally called Cherington at 1 a.m. (ET) with the news.

 

Cherington said the team’s initial offer of four years and $70 million was meant as a starting point for negotiations. Lester and his agents instead chose not to negotiate once the season started.

 

BOOM.

 

They should have made my offer at the end of the '13 season. Things would never had gone south if they had done so. That is my opinion, anyway. Dumb.

[mvp 78]

I'm not here to litigate DD's shortcomings. This was just about the failures of 2014/2015 when Ben straight up trashed the place and put the Sox in a hole they are still trying to climb out of.

 

Then you probably think Theo trashed the place for Ben.

 

Nope, that 2011 team was good.

[Bellhorn04]

Ben left behind a combination of trash and jewels.

[Eddy Ballgame]

By Peter Abraham Globe Staff December 10, 2014

 

SAN DIEGO — Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington wished Jon Lester well on Wednesday and said his only regret was not having more of a chance to negotiate with the lefthander before he was traded in July.

 

“We would have liked to have had more chance for dialogue prior to the season,” said Cherington. “Why that didn’t happen, maybe there’s more than one reason. I think we can certainly learn from the process.”

 

Lester agreed to terms with the Cubs on a six-year, $155 million deal early Wednesday morning, rejecting a $135 million offer from the Sox. The pitcher personally called Cherington at 1 a.m. (ET) with the news.

 

Cherington said the team’s initial offer of four years and $70 million was meant as a starting point for negotiations. Lester and his agents instead chose not to negotiate once the season started.

 

Ben wasn't going to undermine his boss to Abraham for a Globe article. Ben wasn't the only one in the Front Office who thought that offer was a joke.

[Bellhorn04]

Ben wasn't going to undermine his boss to Abraham for a Globe article. Ben wasn't the only one in the Front Office who thought that offer was a joke.

 

They shouldn't have let it happen then.

[Bellhorn04]

Prior to the Lester offer, of course, Henry had made some comments indicating that long term contracts for pitchers over 30 were a very bad idea.

[Kimmi]

Ben wasn't going to undermine his boss to Abraham for a Globe article. Ben wasn't the only one in the Front Office who thought that offer was a joke.

 

Thank you for your defense of Ben. I, too, blame Lucchino for the Lester fiasco, among other things.

 

I'm too tired to go through my whole defense of Cherington again.

 

Yes MVP, I'm looking at you.

[Kimmi]

Prior to the Lester offer, of course, Henry had made some comments indicating that long term contracts for pitchers over 30 were a very bad idea.

 

Which, in general, is the correct philosophy to go by.

 

Henry then panicked and did an about face with Price.