2017 Rotation Discussion

[moonslav59]

Yay, the pitcher tries extra hard to get the guy out. Even harder than normally.

 

It really works.

 

Just like the clutch hitter who tries much harder when it counts.

 

(I had to say it!)

[BstHcpr]

What strategy? The strategy isn't to put the batter on base in front of the hitter behind them. The result is just part of the dynamics of the game.

 

I agree with this. I've seen lot of pitchers become uncorked because they are trying too hard not to allow a lead runner on base. Or if they are too focused on a good runner on the bases.

Edited August 6, 2017 by BstHcpr

[Bellhorn04]

To me, the 'protection' concept makes some sense in theory at least. Look at the extreme case of Barry Bonds in the 2002-2004 seasons. In 420 games he was walked 578 times, including 249 times intentionally. It seems reasonable to assume that he would not have been walked this many times if he had a hitter as good as him batting behind him. Of course there weren't any other hitters as good as him.

[S5Dewey]

Yay, the pitcher tries extra hard to get the guy out. Even harder than normally.

 

It really works.

 

Just like the clutch hitter who tries much harder when it counts.

 

(I had to say it!)

 

I know. I wish we could get these players, ex-players, and broadcasters to come to this site so we could educate them that there is no such thing as clutch, momentum, or lineup protection because they keep talking about it as if it actually exists.

[cp176]

I know. I wish we could get these players, ex-players, and broadcasters to come to this site so we could educate them that there is no such thing as clutch, momentum, or lineup protection because they keep talking about it as if it actually exists.

 

Let me see if I get this straight (just being a pain in the ass here) - a pitcher knows that he has Ortiz in the on deck circle as he looks in to the plate. There are two outs. Is it not at least conceiveable that the guy in the batter's box might be given a really good pitch or two to hit because no one wants to have to count on trying to get a hitter out like Ortiz if they have another option? I enjoyed my strat - o - magic baseball game just like some of the people who posted here too but I pretty much knew that rolling the dice made it make believe no matter how similar the stats appeared. SS- it is pretty clear that some opinions have been made up for sure and no amount of common sense will apply. The data says this is the way it is and that's it.

[Larry Cook]

I know. I wish we could get these players, ex-players, and broadcasters to come to this site so we could educate them that there is no such thing as clutch, momentum, or lineup protection because they keep talking about it as if it actually exists.

 

As an ex college player, I honestly believe in clutch hitters, momentum and lineup protection.

 

But I do respect the point of view for those that do not.

[S5Dewey]

As an ex college player, I honestly believe in clutch hitters, momentum and lineup protection.

 

But I do respect the point of view for those that do not.

 

I do too, but I expect the same respect in return.

[Kimmi]

To me, the 'protection' concept makes some sense in theory at least. Look at the extreme case of Barry Bonds in the 2002-2004 seasons. In 420 games he was walked 578 times, including 249 times intentionally. It seems reasonable to assume that he would not have been walked this many times if he had a hitter as good as him batting behind him. Of course there weren't any other hitters as good as him.

 

Pitchers will pitch batters differently. The overall net effect to that batter is insignificant however. Bonds being walked, which means he is not making an out, has huge value to Bonds in and of itself. It's not as flashy at the home runs he may hit if he were pitched to, but they are far better than the outs that he would also make if he were pitched to.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Kimmi

[Kimmi]

Broadcasters, players, coaches, etc. also believe that fastballs rise. I don't know how many times Eck talked about rising fastballs in the last 2 telecasts. Just because they talk about things as if they actually exist does not mean that they do.

[S5Dewey]

The curve on a curve ball is real. It's caused by the spin on the ball creating a low pressure zone in front of the ball that the ball "falls into". So why is it so incomprehensible that a fast ball can rise a little with the proper spin on the ball?

[SoxnCycles]

The curve on a curve ball is real. It's caused by the spin on the ball creating a low pressure zone in front of the ball that the ball "falls into". So why is it so incomprehensible that a fast ball can rise a little with the proper spin on the ball?

 

Basic physics.

[Kimmi]

The curve on a curve ball is real. It's caused by the spin on the ball creating a low pressure zone in front of the ball that the ball "falls into". So why is it so incomprehensible that a fast ball can rise a little with the proper spin on the ball?

 

I am not a physicist, I'm just going by what they say. My understanding is that the main reason why it can't rise is because of gravity. The top spin on some fastballs cause them not to fall as much as other pitches, which gives the illusion of the ball rising.

[SoxnCycles]

I am not a physicist, I'm just going by what they say. My understanding is that the main reason why it can't rise is because of gravity. The top spin on some fastballs cause them not to fall as much as other pitches, which gives the illusion of the ball rising.

 

Correct.

Pitchers can't generate enough spin to create the lift needed for a ball to rise.

They can certainly help gravity , to make a ball fall quicker, but they can't fight it.

[Kimmi]

Correct.

Pitchers can't generate enough spin to create the lift needed for a ball to rise.

They can certainly help gravity , to make a ball fall quicker, but they can't fight it.

 

That's what I've read. It makes sense.

[SoxnCycles]

Broadcasters, players, coaches, etc. also believe that fastballs rise. I don't know how many times Eck talked about rising fastballs in the last 2 telecasts. Just because they talk about things as if they actually exist does not mean that they do.

 

But, they've played the game and/or have watched 90 years of baseball!

They can't possibly be wrong...

[a700hitter]

But, they've played the game and/or have watched 90 years of baseball!

They can't possibly be wrong...

The harder a ball is thrown and with more spin the effect of gravity will have less time and effect to make the ball dip. Since the ball is dipping less than the majority of pitches with less velocity or spin, the eye is tricked into thinking the ball is rising. When you are standing at the plate, it sure looks like it is rising, but that would defy physics. But then again, there had been scientific studies that curve balls were an illusion.

[cp176]

The harder a ball is thrown and with more spin the effect of gravity will have less time and effect to make the ball dip. Since the ball is dipping less than the majority of pitches with less velocity or spin, the eye is tricked into thinking the ball is rising. When you are standing at the plate, it sure looks like it is rising, but that would defy physics. But then again, there had been scientific studies that curve balls were an illusion.

 

So I have to get this one straight. if the laws of physics say that a fastball cannot rise, then it doesn't right. I'm ok with that. But if people who have played the game and who are currently playing the game think that it actually does because of what it looks like to them, does it really matter what the laws of physics say? Maybe it is an illusion - Im ok with that to.

[Bellhorn04]

Don't forget the 'late life' illusion that some fastballs pick up speed or 'explode' as they reach the plate.

[a700hitter]

So I have to get this one straight. if the laws of physics say that a fastball cannot rise, then it doesn't right. I'm ok with that. But if people who have played the game and who are currently playing the game think that it actually does because of what it looks like to them, does it really matter what the laws of physics say? Maybe it is an illusion - Im ok with that to.

"Rising fastball" is a term to describe a certain type of pitch. It is not being taught in physics class, although discussing whether a thrown ball can rise is an interesting topic for a physics class. For a baseball message board, it is nerdier than anything Alex Speier writes or talks about. The "rising fastball" goes over their bats because they expect the ball to be lower when it reaches them. It is a good descriptive term for the game. Argumentative people will argue about all sorts of irrelevancies.

[cp176]

"Rising fastball" is a term to describe a certain type of pitch. It is not being taught in physics class, although discussing whether a thrown ball can rise is an interesting topic for a physics class. For a baseball message board, it is nerdier than anything Alex Speier writes or talks about. The "rising fastball" goes over their bats because they expect the ball to be lower when it reaches them. It is a good descriptive term for the game. Argumentative people will argue about all sorts of irrelevancies.

 

And therein lies the truth.

[StephenCurry30]

I think the top rotation priority should be getting doug fister off this team.

[moonslav59]

I think the top rotation priority should be getting doug fister off this team.

 

If Price begins to look like he won't come back, our options are limited:

 

1) Try to trade for a waiver wire SP'er that some team below us won't block.

 

2) Call up Brian Johnson.

[StephenCurry30]

either option is better than fister

[a700hitter]

either option is better than fister

I am not so sure about that.

[moonslav59]

I am not so sure about that.

 

I'm never one to judge over one start or two or even 5, but a lot might depend on his next start or two.

[fxkatt]

I hope Fister sticks because I like smart pitchers like him. He's the kind of guy that can throw 5 innings and have a 60 pitch count, which is so contrary to many of our starts this year, when we've had guys in the rotation at 100 pitches in the 4th/5th innings. And, of course, his professionalism is also a big plus. If he does continue to pitch well, he could be our long relief guy in the playoffs.

[Larry Cook]

When a guy is pitching and having success, it is pretty easy to pick up what he is doing to get hitters out.

 

I can see that fister is pitching to contact, but for the life of me, I can not understand how he gets people out with stuff that is borderline mediocre.

[moonslav59]

When a guy is pitching and having success, it is pretty easy to pick up what he is doing to get hitters out.

 

I can see that fister is pitching to contact, but for the life of me, I can not understand how he gets people out with stuff that is borderline mediocre.

 

Maybe he's got just that little bit extra movement on his pitches that is hard to pick-up.

 

It does seem like his location is that good, and he's not blowing it by people, so something has to be deceptive to hitters.

[illinoisredsox]

When a guy is pitching and having success, it is pretty easy to pick up what he is doing to get hitters out.

 

I can see that fister is pitching to contact, but for the life of me, I can not understand how he gets people out with stuff that is borderline mediocre.

 

You played college ball and can't figure that out?

 

Location and changing speeds upsets hitters timing. As Warren Spahn said, hitting is timing and pitching is upsetting timing.

 

I've written this before here, but it bears repeating. Any pitcher at the major league level has the ability to shut any team down on a given night. It's how often they can do it that seperates the good form the average from the bad.

[Spudboy]

Broadcasters, players, coaches, etc. also believe that fastballs rise. I don't know how many times Eck talked about rising fastballs in the last 2 telecasts. Just because they talk about things as if they actually exist does not mean that they do.

 

Lol. We do live in a time when people shun science!