Thornburg out with shoulder impingement

[rkarp1]

it is a long season, and TT and Smith will contribute at some points in season. this is a deep and talented pen, with Barnes, Kelley and Hembree all capable, along with Ross. I also like what I see from Callahan. championships are won on the field, not in the off season.

Price and Pomm will also be healthy and contribute before long.

It is going to take a 32-33 player roster, I like the RS chances

[Kimmi]

EEI was having a conniption over the throwing regimen of the Sox - IMO baseball pitchers might be the most brittle athletes on the planet. Still, there is nothing more overrated than middle relief pitchers. If they were reliable they would start. Get a good starter, let him pitch 6 or 7 innings, and send in the clowns for three outs at a time and hope it doesn't implode. This isn't rocket science. We have the pitching studs where they are most important and this year is going to be very fun.

 

Nice! I actually don't completely disagree with this!

[Kimmi]

it is a long season, and TT and Smith will contribute at some points in season. this is a deep and talented pen, with Barnes, Kelley and Hembree all capable, along with Ross. I also like what I see from Callahan. championships are won on the field, not in the off season.

Price and Pomm will also be healthy and contribute before long.

It is going to take a 32-33 player roster, I like the RS chances

 

I like this post. You should post more.

[Fisk]

it is a long season, and TT and Smith will contribute at some points in season. this is a deep and talented pen, with Barnes, Kelley and Hembree all capable, along with Ross. I also like what I see from Callahan. championships are won on the field, not in the off season.

Price and Pomm will also be healthy and contribute before long.

It is going to take a 32-33 player roster, I like the RS chances

 

Very well said. Also like Taylor in the bullpen.

[User Name]

And football and hockey are not a recipe for disaster? I agree with Geo: players seem to get DL'd because of ingrown nails nowadays.

 

You couldn't be more wrong about this if you tried. You are comparing apples to oranges. A pitcher is dealing with the possibility of a catastrophic injury on a per-pitch basis. There's no activity in any sport as unnatural as pitching. Do you remember Koji's injury last year? (torn pectoral) That was the result of one measly mistake in the kinetic chain during a thrown pitch, and look at the result.

 

We also need to take into account selective bias (pitchers these days right? What about all the guys lost to injury during the deadball era that history doesn't remember?) and the fact that kids are throwing from a younger age and year-round, adding to the epidemic.

 

And there's nothing that pisses me off more than people whining about professional athletes' durability from the comfort of their couch. It's a pet peeve.

[notin]

Very well said. Also like Taylor in the bullpen.

 

And the Robby Scott dream continues.

 

Of course, when it comes to building bullpens, Dombrowski's nightmares are also continuing...

[Spudboy]

You couldn't be more wrong about this if you tried. You are comparing apples to oranges. A pitcher is dealing with the possibility of a catastrophic injury on a per-pitch basis. There's no activity in any sport as unnatural as pitching. Do you remember Koji's injury last year? (torn pectoral) That was the result of one measly mistake in the kinetic chain during a thrown pitch, and look at the result.

 

We also need to take into account selective bias (pitchers these days right? What about all the guys lost to injury during the deadball era that history doesn't remember?) and the fact that kids are throwing from a younger age and year-round, adding to the epidemic.

 

And there's nothing that pisses me off more than people whining about professional athletes' durability from the comfort of their couch. It's a pet peeve.

 

As I recall no one on this site put as much effort into this subject over the years as UN.

 

He talks about baseball with people working to make a living from the game. More than a few know quite a bit about the game.

 

Throwing young and throwing braking balls young is a recipe for injured arms down the road. The human body is not an inexhaustible resource.

[Spudboy]

And the Robby Scott dream continues.

 

Of course, when it comes to building bullpens, Dombrowski's nightmares are also continuing...

 

Good for Scott and Lol DD.

[FredLynn]

You couldn't be more wrong about this if you tried. You are comparing apples to oranges. A pitcher is dealing with the possibility of a catastrophic injury on a per-pitch basis. There's no activity in any sport as unnatural as pitching. Do you remember Koji's injury last year? (torn pectoral) That was the result of one measly mistake in the kinetic chain during a thrown pitch, and look at the result.

 

We also need to take into account selective bias (pitchers these days right? What about all the guys lost to injury during the deadball era that history doesn't remember?) and the fact that kids are throwing from a younger age and year-round, adding to the epidemic.

 

And there's nothing that pisses me off more than people whining about professional athletes' durability from the comfort of their couch. It's a pet peeve.

 

Sorry. Not buying it. Contact sports, by their very nature, are FAR more dangerous than baseball. Pitchers certainly have their risks, but hockey players in particular get back on the ice with absurd kinds of injuries. Patrice Bergeron, a couple of seasons ago, was back on the ice with broken ribs. Other players play with other kinds of fractures. When was the last time a baseball player got back on the field with broken ribs? How many concussions do baseball players suffer compared to hockey players or football players.

Go and take your pet peeve and put it back in the land of fantasy where it belongs. Baseball players are weenies compared to hockey or football players.

[FredLynn]

As I recall no one on this site put as much effort into this subject over the years as UN.

 

He talks about baseball with people working to make a living from the game. More than a few know quite a bit about the game.

 

Throwing young and throwing braking balls young is a recipe for injured arms down the road. The human body is not an inexhaustible resource.

 

I am not saying that baseball players, especially pitchers, are not at risk for significant injuries. They definitely are. But they are not NEARLY at as high a risk as in a few other sports. Throwing a baseball is stressful on the arm; getting tackled by a 250 pound linebacker running at full speed or getting hit blindside by a cornerback after you make a catch are far more dangerous.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I am not saying that baseball players, especially pitchers, are not at risk for significant injuries. They definitely are. But they are not NEARLY at as high a risk as in a few other sports. Throwing a baseball is stressful on the arm; getting tackled by a 250 pound linebacker running at full speed or getting hit blindside by a cornerback after you make a catch are far more dangerous.

 

A starting pitcher throws 100+ pitches a game. A little less if he gets knocked out early. He makes 40 starts a year. That is literally thousands of repetitions of the same motion, putting an enormous amount of stress on muscles, tendons, and bones that are not intended for that sort of use. No football player is getting tackled four thousand times a year. Hell, no football player is getting tackled four thousand times in his career. Yes, football and hockey players suffer far more painful and gruesome injuries, and are at higher risk for them in certain situations.

 

You are missing the point. No one said that baseball players suffer more injuries, or that football and hockey players aren't at high risk for devastating injury. The reason baseball players are DLed for injuries that seem minor compared to concussions and shattered bones is because the nature of the sport doesn't often lead to those kind of injuries. No one is tackling in baseball or shoulder-checking people into walls (as much as all of us would like to see guys like A-Rod get slammed into the ground so hard that the blood vessels in his eyeballs burst).

 

But pitchers are DLed for minor injuries because minor injuries can become permanent if the stress involved in pitching is not abated for enough time to let the injury heal. I broke two toes a couple months ago and I still limp sometimes because my job (a waiter) puts a lot of stress on them. And I'm not even putting all of my body weight down on one foot while hurling something at 80 miles per hour or more (though if I could, that "something" would be a scalding hot cup of coffee and the target would be people who don't tip).

 

Just because other athletes are at risk for more spectacular injuries doesn't make what baseball players face any less serious. They have nothing to do with each other. As UN? said, (and boy do I love agreeing with him ) it's apples and oranges.

[cp176]

And the Robby Scott dream continues.

 

Of course, when it comes to building bullpens, Dombrowski's nightmares are also continuing...

 

Good for Scott- deserved. I think that there remains some possible in house solutions to help out our bullpen until we get healthy.

[cp176]

Good for Scott- deserved. I think that there remains some possible in house solutions to help out our bullpen until we get healthy.

 

I read some of the articles yesterday about the Red Sox management getting a little testy over questions asked by the press about the throwing programs our pitchers participate in. i don't blame them. I know nothing about throwing programs and I guess that I choose to defer to the professionals who work in the field before I pass judgement. Injuries happen. I'm not ready to believe that there is anything more to it than that. I like knowing what is going on but I'm not going to buy into any conspiracy theories anytime soon. I will continue to believe that Red Sox management knows what they are doing for the most part.

[illinoisredsox]

Sorry. Not buying it. Contact sports, by their very nature, are FAR more dangerous than baseball. Pitchers certainly have their risks, but hockey players in particular get back on the ice with absurd kinds of injuries. Patrice Bergeron, a couple of seasons ago, was back on the ice with broken ribs. Other players play with other kinds of fractures. When was the last time a baseball player got back on the field with broken ribs? How many concussions do baseball players suffer compared to hockey players or football players.

Go and take your pet peeve and put it back in the land of fantasy where it belongs. Baseball players are weenies compared to hockey or football players.

 

Yes, Burgeron played Game 6 of the Stanley Cup finals (an elimination game for the Bruins) with broken ribs. He was on the ice, but he was also a shadow of the player he had been earlier in the series. He was of no help to the Bruins that night. Had that injury occurred in December or January, he would have sat several weeks until they healed.

[illinoisredsox]

A starting pitcher throws 100+ pitches a game. A little less if he gets knocked out early. He makes 40 starts a year. That is literally thousands of repetitions of the same motion, putting an enormous amount of stress on muscles, tendons, and bones that are not intended for that sort of use. No football player is getting tackled four thousand times a year. Hell, no football player is getting tackled four thousand times in his career. Yes, football and hockey players suffer far more painful and gruesome injuries, and are at higher risk for them in certain situations.

 

You are missing the point. No one said that baseball players suffer more injuries, or that football and hockey players aren't at high risk for devastating injury. The reason baseball players are DLed for injuries that seem minor compared to concussions and shattered bones is because the nature of the sport doesn't often lead to those kind of injuries. No one is tackling in baseball or shoulder-checking people into walls (as much as all of us would like to see guys like A-Rod get slammed into the ground so hard that the blood vessels in his eyeballs burst).

 

But pitchers are DLed for minor injuries because minor injuries can become permanent if the stress involved in pitching is not abated for enough time to let the injury heal. I broke two toes a couple months ago and I still limp sometimes because my job (a waiter) puts a lot of stress on them. And I'm not even putting all of my body weight down on one foot while hurling something at 80 miles per hour or more (though if I could, that "something" would be a scalding hot cup of coffee and the target would be people who don't tip).

 

Just because other athletes are at risk for more spectacular injuries doesn't make what baseball players face any less serious. They have nothing to do with each other. As UN? said, (and boy do I love agreeing with him ) it's apples and oranges.

 

The classic example of this was Cardinal Hall of Fame pitcher Dizzy Dean, who had a tremendous fastball. Dean got hit in the foot by a line drive in the All-Star Game one year and broke a toe. Instead of letting it heal, he changed his motion to avoid landing on the toe so heavily, ruined his arm and basically his career. A guy who would start 35 or more games a year and appear in 45 or 50 had to try to rely on guile and would pitch in only 40 more games over 4 years before having to hang it up.

[User Name]

Sorry. Not buying it. Contact sports, by their very nature, are FAR more dangerous than baseball. Pitchers certainly have their risks, but hockey players in particular get back on the ice with absurd kinds of injuries. Patrice Bergeron, a couple of seasons ago, was back on the ice with broken ribs. Other players play with other kinds of fractures. When was the last time a baseball player got back on the field with broken ribs? How many concussions do baseball players suffer compared to hockey players or football players.

Go and take your pet peeve and put it back in the land of fantasy where it belongs. Baseball players are weenies compared to hockey or football players.

 

Not baseball, pitching. If you can't even measure the difference in injury risk between a pitcher and most positions played on the field, you shouldn't even be talking about this with any sort of authoritative tone. It doesn't matter if you buy it or don't. Facts are facts. Pitchers have the highest rate of attrition of any sport, including rugby and even RB's in football. Some pitchers may manage to last longer, but most guys don't even get past college without a catastrophic injury. Please don't make stuff up.

[User Name]

 

Just because other athletes are at risk for more spectacular injuries doesn't make what baseball players face any less serious. They have nothing to do with each other. As UN? said, (and boy do I love agreeing with him ) it's apples and oranges.

 

Why is it so hard for you to admit that I'm, like, your favorite poster now.

[FredLynn]

Yes, Burgeron played Game 6 of the Stanley Cup finals (an elimination game for the Bruins) with broken ribs. He was on the ice, but he was also a shadow of the player he had been earlier in the series. He was of no help to the Bruins that night. Had that injury occurred in December or January, he would have sat several weeks until they healed.

 

My original response to Georom (I think it was him) regarded baseball players in general not being on the field with what seem to be minor injuries. Here is what I wrote:

 

"And football and hockey are not a recipe for disaster? I agree with Geo: players seem to get DL'd because of ingrown nails nowadays."

 

In no way am I dismissing the fact that baseball pitchers get injured a lot. They get injured about 34% more than those players who play in the field. I understand that the repetitive nature of the motion that they use predisposes them to injury. That said, I could not find a single bit of data that tells me the incidence of injuries per year for all pitchers. I found that football players get injured about 15.3% of the time, and its clear that there is a much higher percentage of severe injury in contact sports than in baseball. When I see guys like Bergeron out there playing, or trying to play, with broken ribs and a punctured lung, and when I see football players giving it their all, playing with gruesome injuries-and then look at some of these baseball players who are out for weeks with minor injuries-thats what I am talking about. Seems they never want to play unless they are in nearly perfect health.

[FredLynn]

Not baseball, pitching. If you can't even measure the difference in injury risk between a pitcher and most positions played on the field, you shouldn't even be talking about this with any sort of authoritative tone. It doesn't matter if you buy it or don't. Facts are facts. Pitchers have the highest rate of attrition of any sport, including rugby and even RB's in football. Some pitchers may manage to last longer, but most guys don't even get past college without a catastrophic injury. Please don't make stuff up.

 

See my post above: I measured it: pitchers get injured about 34% more than position players. Do you have statistics to prove your point-that pitchers have the highest incidence of injury of any sport? I was not able to find a list of sports that compared injury rates of pitchers to, for example, running backs or hockey players. Its a fact if you can support your opinion with sufficient data; until then its your opinion. Once its fact I can buy it.

By way of comparison (assuming you can produce statistic of this sort for ML pitchers), NFL running backs have a 5.2% risk of injury in every game they play, and they miss, on average, 3.9 games due to that injury according to one study (http://www.profootballlogic.com/articles/nfl-injury-rate-analysis/). Of course, this data isn't comparing ML pitchers to RB because, as far as I know, there is no similar data.

Edited March 31, 2017 by FredLynn

[User Name]

See my post above: I measured it: pitchers get injured about 34% more than position players. Do you have statistics to prove your point-that pitchers have the highest incidence of injury of any sport? I was not able to find a list of sports that compared injury rates of pitchers to, for example, running backs or hockey players. Its a fact if you can support your opinion with sufficient data; until then its your opinion. Once its fact I can buy it.

By way of comparison (assuming you can produce statistic of this sort for ML pitchers), NFL running backs have a 5.2% risk of injury in every game they play, and they miss, on average, 3.9 games due to that injury according to one study (http://www.profootballlogic.com/articles/nfl-injury-rate-analysis/). Of course, this data isn't comparing ML pitchers to RB because, as far as I know, there is no similar data.

 

There's a difference between an injury and a catastrophic injury. I'm talking career-altering or ending injury rate. And I don't have the cold numbers yet, but I'm working on it.

[FredLynn]

There's a difference between an injury and a catastrophic injury. I'm talking career-altering or ending injury rate. And I don't have the cold numbers yet, but I'm working on it.

 

Interesting discussion, this is. Let me know what you find out. Another factor to consider: I would imagine that injury rates are correlated with the number of innings pitched. So SPs may turn out to have a much higher incidence of injuries than RPs. Of course, sometimes what seems intuitive is not actually true. Thats why the facts and data are needed.

[User Name]

Interesting discussion, this is. Let me know what you find out. Another factor to consider: I would imagine that injury rates are correlated with the number of innings pitched. So SPs may turn out to have a much higher incidence of injuries than RPs. Of course, sometimes what seems intuitive is not actually true. Thats why the facts and data are needed.

 

Actually there's a higher correlation between year-round pitching at the little-league level and up and catastrophic injury for pitchers, regardless of role. Then of course, there's the great mechanics debate. If you look up some of the stuff Chris O'Leary has written on the issues stemming from mechanical problems (mainly timing) and elbow/shoulder injuries, it seems like a huge part of the issue has to do with the way/how hard a pitcher throws instead of how much he throws.

[User Name]

Interestingly, O'Leary posted a picture from PitchSmart (a movement from USA Baseball preaching ways to keep pitchers healthy) which says that pitchers who compete more than 8 months per year are 5 times as likely to suffer an injury requiring surgery.

 

Oh, and to clarify what I meant in my above post (it may seem contradictory) the point about year-round pitching is more geared towards young guys and its impact when they reach the professional ranks. The mechanical issues apply regardless of age, pitching schedule and other outside factors. If your mechanics suck, you will eventually need surgery. That is a fact without many exceptions.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Why is it so hard for you to admit that I'm, like, your favorite poster now.

 

I would respond with the old cliche about not spitting on you if you were on fire, but it's likely I would be the one who set you on fire in the first place, so it seems unnecessary.

[rkarp1]

I like this post. You should post more.

 

I post here every now an then. I am over on the other forum, where Pumpsie and I have private conversations

[Kimmi]

I post here every now an then. I am over on the other forum, where Pumpsie and I have private conversations

 

LOL I understand. I would welcome your input here whenever you have the time.

[User Name]

I would respond with the old cliche about not spitting on you if you were on fire, but it's likely I would be the one who set you on fire in the first place, so it seems unnecessary.

 

Yeah yeah yeah. You and I both know such an action would go in direct contradiction to your parole agreement.

[Thunder]

Why is it so hard for you to admit that I'm, like, your favorite poster now.

 

I've always held the utmost respect for you. You challenge all of us, and hold us to the highest standard. You're not afraid to tell it like it is, even if it ruffles some feathers.

[Spudboy]

I've always held the utmost respect for you. You challenge all of us, and hold us to the highest standard. You're not afraid to tell it like it is, even if it ruffles some feathers.

 

Some of the stuff you say makes me scratch my head.

 

Not this time. Well said young man.