Clutch vs non-clutch

[notin]

I have had conversations with several players and coaches at several levels about many different topics throughout the years. It's not like I sat down and asked them to discuss the topic of whether clutch exists or not. I don't have transcripts of those conversations, and that probably wouldn't satisfy you. In my experience being around players and coaches at all levels, they are big believers in the mental part of the game and rising to and shrinking in the moment. I am no one to dispute that, and neither are you. As I said many times over, I will side with what I have heard from players and coaches rather than any statistical study.

 

I have decent access to guys that have played the game. Among other connections, my great nephew is currently in the DR at the Pirates facility with a the Dominican Baseball experience sponsored by Underarmour (I think). The kid is 15 and can hit 90 mph. This is his second trip to the DR and he has traveled the country playing with the National Team is the last year. One of his pitching coaches on a recent trip was Black Jack McDowell. He is one of many former players that work with these kids.

 

Let me reiterate one more time, because you aren't getting what I am saying. I cannot prove that clutch/choke exists, but the stats do not definitively prove that it does not exist. No one can make that claim that the stats disprove it definitively. I have said that I will side with those who have played the game and coached the game. You can discount this all you want, and yes, it is just anecdotal evidence, but to me that is more reliable than a statistical study on the matter. That is my position. I can't state it any clearer. You are free to disagree.

 

See when you get into coaches at "all levels", that really leaves too much open. I could possibly be included there. But enough about that.

 

But you did mention Jack McDowell, Stanford alum. Not that you said you actually met him or talked to him, but that's not the point. McDowell is reportedly a bright guy. I can see trusting his opinion, assuming you ever heard it.

 

But really, should we trust McDowell?

 

I don't know if he believes in clutch. But I do know he doesn't believe in pitch counts, and thinks they're useless and bad for the game. This is in spite of the fact that his career probably ended prematurely because no one was monitoring his pitch counts.

 

So if players do believe in clutch, is that more or less relevant than them believing they need to leave the car at exactly 33 past the hour or need to eat chicken before every game? Is "clutch", whatever it is, another superstition?

 

As for believing the players, should I also believe them when they say corked bats help them hit home runs, despite the FACT that cooking a bat is about the worst thing you can do to one? (Although to be fair, sometimes it does enable a hitter to generate more bat speed. But this only works because the first bat was too heavy and the hitter should have simply gone for the perfectly legal maneuver of using a lighter bat.)

Edited February 18, 2017 by notin

[Kimmi]

I'll side with the players and coaches, and that is all that I have said all along.

 

Right, because you are one who only buys into stats as long as they support your already established opinion.

[Kimmi]

I think superstitions make a player more comfortable. But, say, Fernando Rodney doesn't gain him arm strength and accuracy from wearing his hat like that. And if he ever put it on properly and pitched well, he'd probably change the wsy he wore it...

 

Agreed.

 

I wonder if baseball players are more superstitious than athletes in other sports.

[Kimmi]

But superstitions are also a mental part of the game.

 

Justin Monday may have been the mostssuperstitious player ever (Google around; there's an article out there somewhere), but his obsession with the number 33 didn't make him more talented, and if he left his car at 34 minutes past the hour inadvertently, he didn't magically morph into being a worse hitter. But big chunks of Bull Durham were dedicated to the realism of superstitions. "If you think you're a better player because you're wearing women's underwear, THEN YOU ARE!!"

 

But really, you're not.

 

As for clutch, it looks to me like people want to define it to fit it into their beliefs, and not the other way around. That's simply not how life works. And contrary to what S5 says, how many people really believe in ANYTHING that they can't define? With even the simplest definition?

 

Well said Notin.

[Kimmi]

Choking is definitely no illusion and not a product of bad luck.

 

If one accepts the idea that 'clutch' is actually an absence of choking, then 'clutch', or 'non-choking' if preferred, has to be acknowledged as real.

 

I agree with that Bell. I can accept that clutch, defined as the ability not to choke, does exist. But with that, I would consider most major league players to be clutch, as I've said before.

 

What I'm not buying into is the idea that some people can willingly raise the level of their game to a better than average level when the pressure is on.

[Kimmi]

Well, that's a good point...now you're providing a plausible reason for why Bagwell's postseason numbers may have been depressed. Much better than randomness, at any rate.

 

That's a good point as well. Some postseason at-bats are in garbage time and that needs to be taken into consideration.

 

This is why we keep Notin around. He makes the good points.

[cp176]

Or maybe they just give us enough - sometimes one? - memorable successful moments that we forget about the unsuccessful ones....

 

No one is saying that you aren't right. If you believe you are, you are. It is not definable - that is what I have heard. Piling on people who truly believe that there are clutch moments and clutch players isn't doing you really any good. We aren't talking about a flat earth here. You are doing a wonderful job convincing yourself though. When you start pulling from the philosophers to prove your point, you might be sounding borderline elitist but who cares right. Honest question - I am beginning to think that you are starting to paint people who believe in such intangible things as "clutch" to be beneath the scope of your intelligence level? In reality, my guess would be that the majority of people who believe things like this do exist are apt to be just as informed and intelligent as the very small group that seems to be trying to drive this stuff down people's throats.

[cp176]

This is why we keep Notin around. He makes the good points.

 

He does make some good points. Even better I guess when you agree with them.

[S5Dewey]

I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this but I'll tell you what I know from personal experience.

 

If you've never realized that you are in the middle of something big and had the hair stand up on the back of your neck or gotten 'goose bumps', and then had a calmness settle into you that makes you forget about everything except what you need to do next, and then performed at a higher than normal level.... then I feel badly for you because it's one of the best feelings in the world.

[a700hitter]

See when you get into coaches at "all levels", that really leaves too much open. I could possibly be included there. But enough about that.

 

But you did mention Jack McDowell, Stanford alum. Not that you said you actually met him or talked to him, but that's not the point. McDowell is reportedly a bright guy. I can see trusting his opinion, assuming you ever heard it.

 

But really, should we trust McDowell?

 

I don't know if he believes in clutch. But I do know he doesn't believe in pitch counts, and thinks they're useless and bad for the game. This is in spite of the fact that his career probably ended prematurely because no one was monitoring his pitch counts.

 

So if players do believe in clutch, is that more or less relevant than them believing they need to leave the car at exactly 33 past the hour or need to eat chicken before every game? Is "clutch", whatever it is, another superstition?

 

As for believing the players, should I also believe them when they say corked bats help them hit home runs, despite the FACT that cooking a bat is about the worst thing you can do to one? (Although to be fair, sometimes it does enable a hitter to generate more bat speed. But this only works because the first bat was too heavy and the hitter should have simply gone for the perfectly legal maneuver of using a lighter bat.)

I don't know what point you are trying to make about corked bats, but it doesn't support your argument at all. On the topic of corked bats, Sammy Sosa was lying imo when he said that he didn't know that he had grabbed his corked bat. Even an old softballer like me can tell the difference when i pick up a bat that is an ounce lighter than my usual bat.

 

As for your comment that "all levels" is too broad, that puzzles me, because people at all levels choke and come up clutch. It is not peculiar to the major leagues. The major leaguers do handle pressure better than players at other levels, but they are still human, and because the talent level is so high, nerves only have to affect the player just the slightest bit for him to have the slightest variation in motion, release point, swing etc. If you are off by an inch or so, that can be the difference between success and failure. Major leaguers handle pressure better than anyone, but their margin for error is also the smallest.

 

As for you doubting my contacts and conversations with players and coaches, that is okay, because I have not said that I can prove clutch/choke. I just side with the guys that who have experienced it. I am relying on that for my opinion. Whether you question their credentials or my assertions is irrelevant to me, because I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am just stating the basis for my belief.

 

This latest post of yours was largely argumentative gibberish. I am not sure what you are even arguing about with me. Are you trying to invalidate my opinion in some way, because you can consider it invalid if you want. That is fine with me too. I am just stating what my opinion is and my basis for it.

[a700hitter]

Right, because you are one who only buys into stats as long as they support your already established opinion.

That is not true. I am one whose opinion is almost always supported by the statistics, which is why I have a high regard for statistics.

[a700hitter]

I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this but I'll tell you what I know from personal experience.

 

If you've never realized that you are in the middle of something big and had the hair stand up on the back of your neck or gotten 'goose bumps', and then had a calmness settle into you that makes you forget about everything except what you need to do next, and then performed at a higher than normal level.... then I feel badly for you because it's one of the best feelings in the world.

It is.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this but I'll tell you what I know from personal experience.

 

If you've never realized that you are in the middle of something big and had the hair stand up on the back of your neck or gotten 'goose bumps', and then had a calmness settle into you that makes you forget about everything except what you need to do next, and then performed at a higher than normal level.... then I feel badly for you because it's one of the best feelings in the world.

 

I've had this feeling every time I'm about to have sex. Also once during a pool tournament.

[a700hitter]

I've had this feeling every time I'm about to have sex. Also once during a pool tournament.

You get that feeling every time that you are about to have sex? Clearly you have never been married.

[southpaw777]

Regardless of who the conversations may or may not have been with, I have no doubt that most players and coaches believe in clutch. As with S5, they've 'experienced' clutch. I think we've all experienced clutch moments. They are magical and they are feel great moments. No one wants to accept that they might have been nothing more than pure luck.

 

Luck is merely where preparedness and opportunity meet. If you are prepared for the opportunity, and the moment isnt too big for you, success will be waiting more times than not.

[cp176]

Luck is merely where preparedness and opportunity meet. If you are prepared for the opportunity, and the moment isnt too big for you, success will be waiting more times than not.

 

Ain't that the truth. It really is about the preparation.

[cp176]

I've had this feeling every time I'm about to have sex. Also once during a pool tournament.

 

 

Did you choke or come through (in the clutch of course)?

[cp176]

I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this but I'll tell you what I know from personal experience.

 

If you've never realized that you are in the middle of something big and had the hair stand up on the back of your neck or gotten 'goose bumps', and then had a calmness settle into you that makes you forget about everything except what you need to do next, and then performed at a higher than normal level.... then I feel badly for you because it's one of the best feelings in the world.

 

It is! It is why I still try to compete. I get the fact that golf is different but I still see so many good young players who honestly have such good looking swings but they just haven't figured out how to score. they don't get that it really is about grinding. I really think that it has to do with mental toughness or strength, call it what you like. You can't define it but it exists. I see it almost everyday. The more you live in pressure situations, the more you learn how to deal with it.

[Bellhorn04]

Luck is merely where preparedness and opportunity meet. If you are prepared for the opportunity, and the moment isnt too big for you, success will be waiting more times than not.

 

Let's be clear though: that doesn't apply to succeeding as a baseball hitter, which is what a lot of this debate about. It doesn't matter if you have nerves of steel and ice water in your veins. You're still going to fail more than succeed.

[cp176]

Let's be clear though: that doesn't apply to succeeding as a baseball hitter, which is what a lot of this debate about. It doesn't matter if you have nerves of steel and ice water in your veins. You're still going to fail more than succeed.

 

If you have prepared, and have nerves of steel (so to speak) and ice water (so to speak) in your veins your chances of success are enhanced. Most athletes fail more than they succeed. It is all relative to the game they happen to play.

[Bellhorn04]

If you have prepared, and have nerves of steel (so to speak) and ice water (so to speak) in your veins your chances of success are enhanced. Most athletes fail more than they succeed. It is all relative to the game they happen to play.

 

I totally agree with that. Success is relative.

[cp176]

I totally agree with that. Success is relative.

 

Relative to what though?

[User Name]

Per-sport standards.

[cp176]

Per-sport standards.

 

absolutely.

[S5Dewey]

Relative to what though?

 

Relative to one's expectations.

 

If I play golf and expect to break 90 and shoot 80 I feel like I was successful.

 

If Tiger Woods plays golf, expects to break par and shoots 80 he's disappointed.

[S5Dewey]

The Twins lost 103 games last year and probably see themselves in a rebuilding mode. A .500 season for them in 2017 would probably be seen as "successful" because they don't (realistically) expect to win their division.

 

OTOH, if the Sox go 81-81 it will be a disappointment because we expect them to win 90+ games.

[notin]

Since no one can define "clutch" (other than mvp), I wonder one thing. What would any of you say was the most clutch hit of JD Drew's career in Boston?

 

I warn you. This is a psychological test being performed by someone with zero knowledge of psychology....

Edited February 19, 2017 by notin

[User Name]

The 14 million dollar grand slam. That's an easy one.

[S5Dewey]

Since no one can define "clutch" (other than mvp), I wonder one thing. What would any of you say was the most clutch hit of JD Drew's career in Boston?

 

I warn you. This is a psychological test being performed by someone with zero knowledge of psychology....

 

No. What this is is a set-up, much like a bar bet with a totally unexpected "right answer". Thanks, but I won't participate.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Did you choke or come through (in the clutch of course)?

 

I won the tournament. Granted, there were only 15 people in it, but it was still pretty tough.