Trade confirmed: Shaw, Dubon, Pennington, to Brewers for RHRP Tyler Thornburg

[Spudboy]

What has Carson Smith ever done wrong? besides having TJ? must pitchers have some kind of injury at some point in his life. I'd be interesting to see what he does this year and next. If he pitches like he did in Seattle we are in for a treat.

 

Where did I say that Carson Smith had done something wrong?

 

I am saying that I do not value a player that highly when he blows up his arm JUST after he is traded for or acquired. Smith did nothing to help the Sox in his first year. Not his fault, but it could be a fault of the Sox for possibly not knowing that this injury was in the cards.

 

And now the Sox have acquired another apparent stud BP arm with a recent history of elbow injury and only one healthy and productive season behind him.

 

I say that is cause for concern. Especially if it happens to my team two years in a row.

[mvp 78]

Only loss on this trade is Dubon.

[Hugh2]

Where did I say that Carson Smith had done something wrong?

 

I am saying that I do not value a player that highly when he blows up his arm JUST after he is traded for or acquired. Smith did nothing to help the Sox in his first year. Not his fault, but it could be a fault of the Sox for possibly not knowing that this injury was in the cards.

 

And now the Sox have acquired another apparent stud BP arm with a recent history of elbow injury and only one healthy and productive season behind him.

 

I say that is cause for concern. Especially if it happens to my team two years in a row.

 

 

Ok I thought you were implying he did something wrong. What you mean was the Sox may have made a mistake in trading for a guy who was injured?

 

But I highly doubt that is the case, teams are supposed to have access to medical record and perform physicals on guys. Many injuries can be freakish or acute in nature. It's highly unlikely to be able to predict when a guy is going to get injured unless he is already injured.

 

Now you can look at a guys deliver, and arm angle and say "hey, that doesn't look right he will probably get injured don't trade for him" but if that's the basis you're going after then i'd be a little worried about Chris Sale.

 

In reality, how many pitchers miss 1/2 a season to a whole season at least once in their careers? I'd suspect the majority who do not are not good enough to spend significant time in the majors.

[Spudboy]

Ok I thought you were implying he did something wrong. What you mean was the Sox may have made a mistake in trading for a guy who was injured?

 

But I highly doubt that is the case, teams are supposed to have access to medical record and perform physicals on guys. Many injuries can be freakish or acute in nature. It's highly unlikely to be able to predict when a guy is going to get injured unless he is already injured.

 

Now you can look at a guys deliver, and arm angle and say "hey, that doesn't look right he will probably get injured don't trade for him" but if that's the basis you're going after then i'd be a little worried about Chris Sale.

 

In reality, how many pitchers miss 1/2 a season to a whole season at least once in their careers? I'd suspect the majority who do not are not good enough to spend significant time in the majors.

 

No. You missed my point. I did not say "may have". I said that there is precedent for it. There is Carson Smith from last year and then while I can not remember their names, a s*** hot reliever from Oakland that missed a whole season and another guy from Pittsburgh who did the same. Both combined never accomplished anything positive while with the Sox.

 

As far as Sale's violent delivery, I have voiced concern about it many times.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I can tolerate giving up stud prospects for a dominant SP. I can tolerate trading T.Shaw for Thornburg. But Dombrowski continues to overpay for relievers. He gave up too much for Kimbrel when he had better options (the Yankees had not yet acquired Chapman for basically nothing) and now he trades a really good SS prospect (along with Shaw) for a volatile set up reliever who has had arm/elbow issues in the past.

[Jack Flap]

I don't know if I'll ever get used to the cost being exacted for relief pitchers right now, but it's simply the reality of the market currently. Much as I haven't been a fan of the Kimbrel deal, it looks a lot better after some of the trades at this year's deadline and what Melancon/Jansen/Chapman are getting or will get in free agency. Hell, the Gagne trade will probably look a lot better soon at this rate.

 

DD got 3 years of a potentially elite setup man without sacrificing any top prospects or core major league pieces. I find that difficult to argue with.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Jack Flap

[moonslav59]

I can tolerate giving up stud prospects for a dominant SP. I can tolerate trading T.Shaw for Thornburg. But Dombrowski continues to overpay for relievers. He gave up too much for Kimbrel when he had better options (the Yankees had not yet acquired Chapman for basically nothing) and now he trades a really good SS prospect (along with Shaw) for a volatile set up reliever who has had arm/elbow issues in the past.

 

I was firmly against the Kimbrel trade, but this Thornburg deal is totally the opposite. Kimbrel was making near FA money, AND we gave up much better talent than for Thornburg who has 3 arb years left.

 

I may be wrong, but I think T Shaw will never become more than a back-up or platoon corner IF'er. While Dubon still has upside, it seems most scouts had him ending up as a good utility player at best. Thornburg almost K'd 13 per 9 innings!

 

It was a great trade (on paper).

[Jack Flap]

Shaw was a marginal prospect who we got more out of than we had any right to expect, but it's quite possible we sold him at his highest value...and basically replaced his expected production with Moreland.

 

The only guy I think we might miss is Dubon, and he'd probably never be more than a utility infielder in Boston.

[moonslav59]

Shaw was a marginal prospect who we got more out of than we had any right to expect, but it's quite possible we sold him at his highest value...and basically replaced his expected production with Moreland.

 

The only guy I think we might miss is Dubon, and he'd probably never be more than a utility infielder in Boston.

 

I totally agree. Although we may be proven wrong, we may have sold high on all the guys we gave up. It looks that way with Shaw and Dubon anyways.

 

Moncada and Kopech may come back and haunt us badly, but the risk was worth it, in my opinion.

[Hugh2]

No. You missed my point. I did not say "may have". I said that there is precedent for it. There is Carson Smith from last year and then while I can not remember their names, a s*** hot reliever from Oakland that missed a whole season and another guy from Pittsburgh who did the same. Both combined never accomplished anything positive while with the Sox.

 

As far as Sale's violent delivery, I have voiced concern about it many times.

 

Ok I think I got it now! Yes injury is always a concern and it seems like we've always had bad luck trading for relievers that can stay healthy. Hopeful Thornburg breaks the mold, and I do have optimism that Smith can come back and be really good for the next few years.

[Spudboy]

Ok I think I got it now! Yes injury is always a concern and it seems like we've always had bad luck trading for relievers that can stay healthy. Hopeful Thornburg breaks the mold, and I do have optimism that Smith can come back and be really good for the next few years.

 

I agree. I hope for the best.

 

Also, those two pitchers were Bailey and Hanrahan, I believe.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Gyorkass: MIL-BOS Thornburg trade – win for MIL, win for BOS, neither, or both?

Dave Cameron: I like Thornburg, but BOS gave up a lot. I like it more for MIL.

 

Nathan: Some mixed reviews on the package for Thornburg. Im not a fan of Shaw but Dubon seems like a nice piece (if he keeps his power). What’s your review on the trade?

Dave Cameron: Shaw is a below average but useful role player, Dubon looks like a nice piece, and Thornburg is a pretty risky asset. Definitely the kind of trade MIL should be making.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/dave-cameron-fangraphs-chat-12716-2/

 

I agree with Cameron's take.

[moonslav59]

I agree with Cameron's take.

 

Probably true, but Thornburg's financial cost is much lower than what Kimbrel's was, and the cost of acquiring good RP'ers is going through the roof. This beats the Soler-Davis trade to death.

[harmony]

Probably true, but Thornburg's financial cost is much lower than what Kimbrel's was, and the cost of acquiring good RP'ers is going through the roof. This beats the Soler-Davis trade to death.

The Red Sox reportedly tried to trade for Wade Davis before trading for Tyler Thornburg:

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/12/07/source-red-sox-made-strong-run-at-royals-closer-wade-davis/

[moonslav59]

The Red Sox reportedly tried to trade for Wade Davis before trading for Tyler Thornburg:

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/12/07/source-red-sox-made-strong-run-at-royals-closer-wade-davis/

 

I saw that. I'm glad we got 3 years of Thornburg at less cost.

[StephenCurry30]

Looking back, it looks like we got raped. shaw is dominating in Milwaukee, while we've yet to even see Thornburg play...

[jacksonianmarch]

Thornburg keeps complaining of a dead arm. When Pineda did that shortly after we acquired him, his labrum was found to be torn

[Bellhorn04]

Yep, just a horrible trade.

[Dojji]

Stupid. Never favor the player with the contract over the better player. And never, ever, create one hole to fill another No matter what, never do this. Play on the ground proves that Shaw was not expendable, and I was worried about that at the time.

 

I thought it unreasonable to assume that the mere existence of Panda created depth at third base, I said so then, obviously I still think so. A guy in Panda's situation counts for NOTHING until HE PROVES OTHERWISE. Going into the season with only Panda having full time 3B credentials has generated the biggest hole in our roster right now and I'll be honest, I'm convinced it's one of the biggest reasons we're not competing right now. If we were getting power from the corner infield positions we'd be right up tere with NYY and TOR.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

It just seems incredible that we made two separate trades for guys whose arms were not sound enough to throw a pitch for us.

[Dojji]

DD has a long track record of having no real idea of how to bullpen. This is just more confirmation.

[oldtimer]

Stupid. Never favor the player with the contract over the better player. And never, ever, create one hole to fill another No matter what, never do this. Play on the ground proves that Shaw was not expendable, and I was worried about that at the time.

 

I thought it unreasonable to assume that the mere existence of Panda created depth at third base, I said so then, obviously I still think so. A guy in Panda's situation counts for NOTHING until HE PROVES OTHERWISE. Going into the season with only Panda having full time 3B credentials has generated the biggest hole in our roster right now and I'll be honest, I'm convinced it's one of the biggest reasons we're not competing right now. If we were getting power from the corner infield positions we'd be right up tere with NYY and TOR.

 

Now they are talking about Todd Frazier in a trade. He is an average fielder and is off to a miserable start at the plate. Why make that kind of trade instead of just bringing Devers up and giving him a try?

[sk7326]

Now they are talking about Todd Frazier in a trade. He is an average fielder and is off to a miserable start at the plate. Why make that kind of trade instead of just bringing Devers up and giving him a try?

 

i don't know if its decided yet. I'd go Devers too.

[jacksonianmarch]

They likely dont want to force a kid into the position if they dont think he is ready. There is little doubt that he offensively, he is ready for AAA. There has to be a reason why he has stayed at a level that he is destroying. I have heard scouts point to his defense being subpar. If it is, they likely want to clear that up before he heads to the big show

[jacksonianmarch]

We are going to run into the same thing with our 3b. Torres was just moved to AAA. If he rakes in AAA, it will be interesting to see what we do. Torres and Devers are within 2 months of being the same age and that is really, really young for their levels.

[Station 13]

The Royals have to be kicking themselves for turning down Shaw and Doubon for Wade Davis. They can't be happy with the overrated Jorge Soler at this point.

[sk7326]

They likely dont want to force a kid into the position if they dont think he is ready. There is little doubt that he offensively, he is ready for AAA. There has to be a reason why he has stayed at a level that he is destroying. I have heard scouts point to his defense being subpar. If it is, they likely want to clear that up before he heads to the big show

 

Probably - but I do think Dombrowski won't be deterred. The question is whether they think the kid can handle batting 9th, and figuring out stuff on the fly. Once you get to the bigs, instruction is harder. Butterfield is an industry admired fielding coach - but obviously, with games every night - there is a lot of self study required.

[jacksonianmarch]

Right. The biggest difference is that a AAA or AA team can send out someone who is working on something for a month or two and nobody will care. You can let Devers make 50 errors while correcting his problem. You cannot do that in the bigs

[Spudboy]

Meanwhile we have close to stellar defense at 3rd with the non hitting Merrero.

 

I'm fine with him staying there until Devers is deemed ready.

[mvp 78]

We are going to run into the same thing with our 3b. Torres was just moved to AAA. If he rakes in AAA, it will be interesting to see what we do. Torres and Devers are within 2 months of being the same age and that is really, really young for their levels.

 

No scout has said that since before last year when some wondered if he'd be moved to 1b because of his body type. He was the 2016 defensive player of the year for the organization.