Sox 2013 v. Sox 2016, the race is on

[Maxbialystock]

Just 3 years apart, but humoungous changes. In 2016 a new SS, 3B, 1B, LF, CF, RF, and C plus an entirely new rotation of Price, Porcello, Wright, Pomeranz, and ERodriguez. 2013 team had a new but well respected manager named John Farrell, but in 2016 we are stuck with a loser ( 2014 and 2015) named johnfreakingfarrell who insists on abusing and misusing his bullpen, who had the temerity to play Young in LF against righty pitchers, who allows his players so much freedom on the basepaths they are continually getting picked off or thrown out trying to steal or advance when it's inadvisable, who is clueless on when to take a starter out, ditto on putting together a lineup card.

 

Nevertheless, despite the liability of a loser manager and an astonishing turnover of position players and starters, the 2016 team is now in first place in the AL East and has a real shot at the playoffs. With 93 games played, they are 15 games above .500 with 54 wins and 39 losses. The 2013 team at this points was 56-37, 2 games ahead of the current Sox. The 2013 team had better pitching but surprisingly, were still ranked 14th in MLB in ERA, whereas the current Sox are 18th in MLB in ERA. The 2013 team, however, was about half an ERA better. Both 2013 and 2016 led/lead MLB in runs scored and OPS, but the 2016 team has a higher OPS and should outscore the 2013 team by a bunch. Fielding-wise, I'd called it a draw: Bradley>Ellsbury, Betts=Victorino, Holt>Gomes, Napoli=Ramirez, Pedroia 2013>Pedroia2015, Drew>Bogaerts, Shaw=2013 conglomerate, Leon>Salty.

 

Overall, I have to give the edge to the 2013 team because their pitching, with a cumulative ERA of 2.00, was just unreal in the playoffs. Nevertheless, this team, like the 2013 team, is a lot of fun to watch.

 

Feel free to disagree.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Maxbialystock

[User Name]

This would be a good and thought-provoking thread if you weren't such an infuriating, pretentious prick. Stick to the topic at hand without turning it into a flame-war with people who disagree with your opinions.

[Slasher9]

the '13 team won 97 games (pythagorean was 100 wins). it will be hard for us to equal that. especially with a couple of West Coast trips still on the schedule.

we should surpass the 853 RS but it looks like we will also surpass the 656 RA.

Our avg age is 1 year younger so that bodes well for the future.

obviously hoping for a deep run in the Postseason.

Can we win it all? i believe we can.

[User Name]

If the starting pitching finds its stride, this team could make a run at the upper 90's in the win column with the way the offense is going.

[Kimmi]

I don't think this team will quite make it to 97 wins, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. Either way, if we win the division, it doesn't really matter whether we win 90 games or 100 games.

 

Early in the year, several of us mentioned how this team reminded us of 2013. Then June came, and all hope was lost for many. Now we're back to making comparisons to 2013. The point is that it's a long season so we should try not to ride the highs or the lows too strongly.

[Slasher9]

i actually like this team more than the 13 club. anyone see the new NESN commercial with the OFers coming up with the dance? so funny/good.

[Dojji]

In 13 I still felt the team was struggling to patch together one season at a time. In 2016 there is a clear 3 year plan. 2016 wins.

[Kimmi]

In 13 I still felt the team was struggling to patch together one season at a time. In 2016 there is a clear 3 year plan. 2016 wins.

 

2013 was actually part of the longer 5 year plan to get us to 2016.

[Bellhorn04]

This team has great potential, that's all I can say at this point. We are still locked in a 3 way race for the division.

 

Price and Pomeranz may be the keys to the whole thing.

[greenwell]

Just 3 years apart, but humoungous changes. In 2016 a new SS, 3B, 1B, LF, CF, RF, and C plus an entirely new rotation of Price, Porcello, Wright, Pomeranz, and ERodriguez. 2016 team had a new but well respected manager named John Farrell, but in 2016 we are stuck with a loser ( 2014 and 2015) named johnfreakingfarrell who insists on abusing and misusing his bullpen, who had the temerity to play Young in RF against righty pitchers, who allows his players so much freedom on the basepaths they are continually getting picked off or thrown out trying to steal or advance when it's inadvisable, who is clueless on when to take a starter out, ditto on putting together a lineup card.

 

Nevertheless, despite the liability of a loser manager and an astonishing turnover of position players and starters, the 2016 team is now in first place in the AL East and has a real shot at the playoffs. With 93 games played, they are 15 games above .500 with 54 wins and 39 losses. The 2013 team at this points was 56-37, 2 games ahead of the current Sox. The 2013 team had better pitching but surprisingly, were still ranked 14th in MLB in ERA, whereas the current Sox are 18th in MLB in ERA. The 2013 team, however, was about half an ERA better. Both 2013 and 2016 led/lead MLB in runs scored and OPS, but the 2016 team has a higher OPS and should outscore the 2013 team by a bunch. Fielding-wise, I'd called it a draw: Bradley>Ellsbury, Betts=Victorino, Holt>Gomes, Napoli=Ramirez, Pedroia 2013>Pedroia2015, Drew>Bogaerts, Shaw=2013 conglomerate, Leon>Salty.

 

Overall, I have to give the edge to the 2013 team because their pitching, with a cumulative ERA of 2.00, was just unreal in the playoffs. Nevertheless, this team, like the 2013 team, is a lot of fun to watch.

 

Feel free to disagree.

 

I hadn't quite realized how much turnover there's been since them. Is it just Papi, Holt, Bogaerts, Uehara, Tazawa and Buchholz left?

[Dojji]

I think so. There's a lot of out-with-the-old that happens when you are sitting in the basement for 2 years.

[Slasher9]

what would you rather have?

Lester

Lackey

Dempster

Doubrant

Buchholz/Peavy/Webster

 

or

 

Price

Wright

Porcello

Pomeranz

Buchholz/Erod/Kelly

[Bellhorn04]

what would you rather have?

Lester

Lackey

Dempster

Doubrant

Buchholz/Peavy/Webster

 

or

 

Price

Wright

Porcello

Pomeranz

Buchholz/Erod/Kelly

 

Easy choice because we already know what the first group did.

[Slasher9]

1b Napoli or HanRam

2b same

ss Drew or X-Bo

3b Middlebrooks or Shaw

LF Gomes or Holt/Young

CF Ells or JBj

RF Victorino or Betts

C Salty or Leon

DH same

 

Me? i take the 2016 player over the 2013 player at every position.

[Slasher9]

Easy choice because we already know what the first group did.

 

stop making sense HFX. pretend you dont know the outcome. which staff on paper?

[Bellhorn04]

stop making sense HFX. pretend you dont know the outcome. which staff on paper?

 

You mean on paper at the start of the 2013 season vs. the start of the 2016 season?

[Slasher9]

You mean on paper at the start of the 2013 season vs. the start of the 2016 season?

 

no.

[Maxbialystock]

This would be a good and thought-provoking thread if you weren't such an infuriating, pretentious prick. Stick to the topic at hand without turning it into a flame-war with people who disagree with your opinions.

 

I was supposed to ignore the manager? Or, if I did mention him, I was supposed to ignore that most everyone applauded him in 2013 but people want him fired in 2016, largely because of 2014 and 2015?

 

To me one of the "thought-provoking" elements in the OP is that these two very different teams are playing or did play pretty good baseball for the same manager who stayed in Boston through two grim years. It's the same exact guy, only now he is despised in some corners despite the team playing well.

 

But I do agree it's still an interesting topic without even mentioning Farrell because of the dramatic overhaul since 2016--about which the mind boggles. And let's not forget that in 2014 Cherington had every intention of keeping most of the 2013 team. He didn't want Lavarnway as catcher and couldn't meet the Yankees price for Ellsbury, but he kept most everyone else until midseason. Even with the acquisition of Sandoval, the rebuild has been pretty darn successful despite the pitching issues.

[mvp 78]

Easy choice because we already know what the first group did.

 

2016 Ryan Dempster and Doubront would be bad. No thanks.

[Bellhorn04]

no.

 

Tough question without some parameters. At the start of 2013 Sox fans hated Lackey and considered him a colossal bust. By the end of the season that had changed 180 degrees.

[illinoisredsox]

1b Napoli or HanRam

2b same

ss Drew or X-Bo

3b Middlebrooks or Shaw

LF Gomes or Holt/Young

CF Ells or JBj

RF Victorino or Betts

C Salty or Leon

DH same

 

Me? i take the 2016 player over the 2013 player at every position.

 

Not sure I agree at 1B. I think people forget how good Napoli was that year. Hanram has a higher BA, but Napoli's OPS was 45 points higher than Hanley's is right now and the other night not withstanding, 2013 Napoli is the better defensive player. Napoli also is/was the better baserunner (I'm not talking about speed, but he was a smart baserunner and never had the brain farts out there that Hanley seems to have all too often). I call it a wash at best, and IMO a slight edge to Naps.

 

Pedroia 2013 and 2016 are also a wash pretty much a was, but I'll go with the 2013 version if only defensively, because 28 yo Pedey had slightly better range than his 31 yo counterpart.

 

Catcher is a really tough call. Leon >> Salty on defense, but offensively, Salty struck out a ton; he also had 40 doubles that year. Leon isn't going to keep this up (nobody ever has in the history of the game) and when he crashes back to Earth it isn't going to be pretty.

 

The 2013 team was a veteran team that seemingly was better than the sum of its parts. This year's team has more raw talent, but the operative word there is raw.

Edited July 22, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[Youk Of The Nation]

1b Napoli or HanRam

2b same

ss Drew or X-Bo

3b Middlebrooks or Shaw

LF Gomes or Holt/Young

CF Ells or JBj

RF Victorino or Betts

C Salty or Leon

DH same

 

Me? i take the 2016 player over the 2013 player at every position.

 

I think I'd take 2013 Napoli over 2016 Ramirez. I'd take 2016 Ramirez over 2016 Napoli, though.

[a700hitter]

I think I'd take 2013 Napoli over 2016 Ramirez. I'd take 2016 Ramirez over 2016 Napoli, though.

Napoli is having a very good season. He has already hit 23 bombs, and he looked like he was finished when we traded him, and he is still a better first baseman than Hanley.

[Slasher9]

Napoli is having a very good season. He has already hit 23 bombs, and he looked like he was finished when we traded him, and he is still a better first baseman than Hanley.

based on what?

napoli

rdrs -5 / 562 innings / dwar -1 / fldg% .988

 

HanRam

rdrs -2 / 682 innings / dwar -0.7 / fldg% .995

[Maxbialystock]

If the starting pitching finds its stride, this team could make a run at the upper 90's in the win column with the way the offense is going.

 

That's actually what I think too. Price is still good despite the ERA, Wright and Porcello continue to amaze me, and ERod could be last year's version returned. Pomeranz is a question mark, but that's OK for your #5.

[Spudboy]

based on what?

napoli

rdrs -5 / 562 innings / dwar -1 / fldg% .988

 

HanRam

rdrs -2 / 682 innings / dwar -0.7 / fldg% .995

 

Hanley has done a good job. Certainly better than many expected him to do ( including myself ).

 

No way in hell those numbers will convince me that Hanley is a better defensive 1st baseman than Napoli. That is laughable.

[Slasher9]

Hanley has done a good job. Certainly better than many expected him to do ( including myself ).

 

No way in hell those numbers will convince me that Hanley is a better defensive 1st baseman than Napoli. That is laughable.

 

What 2016 numbers would you like to use? how many Guardians games have you watched?

[illinoisredsox]

Hanley has done a good job. Certainly better than many expected him to do ( including myself ).

 

No way in hell those numbers will convince me that Hanley is a better defensive 1st baseman than Napoli. That is laughable.

 

Agree. I'm not going to use numbers, I'm going with the eye test. As an old first sacker, I've noticed 2 fairly big weaknesses in Hanley

 

Hanley stretches way too early. He appears to stretch and then find the ball when you really need to do the opposite. That means when throws are not exactly on the money, he is forced to make the play look more difficult than it would look if a more experienced first baseman were there. He's athletic enough to pull it off, but he shouldn't have to.

 

Hanley's other major weakness is throws, especially to 2nd. I don't get to see every game, but I don't recall the Sox turning any 3-6-3 or 3-6-1 DPs this year, and the reason is ususally HanRam's weak throws to 2nd. He fears hitting the runner and thus aims the ball instead of gunning it (in stark contrast that to the throw he made home against the Giants the other night on the 3-2 tag DP). Now it's understandable because as an infielder on the left side, he never had to make a throw around or past a runner going to the base he was throwing to. As an old catcher, Napoli made that throw often to first on dropped 3rd strikes so not a big change for him.

Edited July 22, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[Slasher9]

Agree. I'm not going to use numbers, I'm going with the eye test. As an old first sacker, I've noticed 2 fairly big weaknesses in Hanley

 

Hanley stretches way too early. He appears to stretch and then find the ball when you really need to do the opposite. That means when throws are not exactly on the money, he is forced to make the play look more difficult than it would look if a more experienced first baseman were there. He's athletic enough to pull it off, but he shouldn't have to.

 

Hanley's other major weakness is throws, especially to 2nd. I don't get to see every game, but I don't recall the Sox turning any 3-6-3 or 3-6-1 DPs this year, and the reason is ususally HanRam's weak throws to 2nd. He fears hitting the runner and thus aims the ball instead of gunning it (in stark contrast that to the throw he made home against the Giants the other night on the 3-2 tag DP). Now it's understandable because as an infielder on the left side, he never had to make a throw around or past a runner going to the base he was throwing to. As an old catcher, Napoli made that throw often to first on dropped 3rd strikes so not a big change for him.

 

i've watched just about every Sox inning and both of your statements are valid. the first one (to my memory) has not cost us as he always makes the play. as you pointed out the play sometimes looks harder or more awkward than necessary. but he seems to be getting better at it as the season progresses. which makes sense.

your second point has probably cost us a couple double plays. his footwork on throws to 2b is terrible. something he can definitely work on and probably is?

[Maxbialystock]

i've watched just about every Sox inning and both of your statements are valid. the first one (to my memory) has not cost us as he always makes the play. as you pointed out the play sometimes looks harder or more awkward than necessary. but he seems to be getting better at it as the season progresses. which makes sense.

your second point has probably cost us a couple double plays. his footwork on throws to 2b is terrible. something he can definitely work on and probably is?

 

Agree with both of you. And both of those skills can be improved upon with practice. Heck, they should have been fixed by now, but I guess Farrell is just grateful that Hanley can in fact play 1B as he could not play LF.