Making History

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

I am a Sox fan and will freely admit that I want to see Ortiz in the HOF.

 

I used to think that if he got to 500 HR then his credentials were good enough.

 

Now that he has eclipsed that milestone I still believe that regardless of what he does before he retires, that PED "cloud" will be held against him.

 

The media made a big deal out of it and it has never gone away. Anytime an open discussion of his HOF worthiness is undertaken, the "cloud" of PED use is mentioned.

 

So I do think that it is a real issue. Even if he has never been proven to have done anything against MLB rules. It's just the way things are.

 

That was my point.

 

I never said he did or didn't use PEDs, just that there is a cloud and that combined with being pretty much a career DH may make it tougher.

[Youk Of The Nation]

TBSB made a valid point, even if he is a damned Yankees fan. Proven or not, there is talk of steroids associated with David Ortiz. Maybe not as much as with Bonds or McGwire, but enough to make me doubt that he will be inducted within his first few years. I do think that eventually all of these guys will be inducted; Bonds, Ortiz, Clemens, et cetera cannot be denied forever. Their stats are just too good, even from the years where they were not proven to have used or allegedly used PEDs. As for the DH issue, Edgar Martinez has still not been inducted, and that indicates to me that TBSB's other point, that Ortiz' career as a DH might hinder his chances, is also valid. We've had to learn after years of posting by jacksonianmarch that we can't ignore unfavorable opinions or insights about the Red Sox just because they come from Yankees fans. TBSB may be annoying, but in this particular thread, he is absolutely correct in that there is a chance that these issues might hamstring Ortiz's HOF chances. Accusing someone of trolling simply for posting a contrary opinion has long been the last refuge of those with no rebuttal. If you disagree with TBSB, then explain why with opinions, facts, and debate instead of insults. And TBSB, stop responding to it with more insults. Edited May 25, 2016 by Youk Of The Nation

[mvp 78]

TBSB made a valid point, even if he is a damned Yankees fan. Proven or not, there is talk of steroids associated with David Ortiz. Maybe not as much as with Bonds or McGwire, but enough to make me doubt that he will be inducted within his first few years. I do think that eventually all of these guys will be inducted; Bonds, Ortiz, Clemens, et cetera cannot be denied forever. Their stats are just too good, even from the years where they were not proven to have used or allegedly used PEDs.

 

If Bonds and Clemens don't get in, the HOF is just a farce. I understand the reasons that Rose has been left out, but singling out Clemens and Bonds when a ton of other guys were doing the same thing doesn't make sense to me.

[Youk Of The Nation]

If Bonds and Clemens don't get in, the HOF is just a farce. I understand the reasons that Rose has been left out, but singling out Clemens and Bonds when a ton of other guys were doing the same thing doesn't make sense to me.

 

Well, it's not just them. Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro's vote totals are clearly being affected by the voter's opinions on PEDs. Granted, those three guys might not have the same slam-dunk case for the HOF, given that HRs are basically their only claim to greatness, but they should at least be getting a far higher percentage than they are. Your basic argument is one I agree with, however. They played in an era of baseball where a lot of guys were doing it, guys who did not accumulate the stats and longevity that makes a case for the HOF. That should be an indicator that the PEDs, while reprehensible, were not responsible for their success. Clemens and Bonds would have been HOFers without PEDs, and they should still be HOFers with them.

[mvp 78]

I don't believe Sosa and McGwire should get in though. They were one trick ponies who skewed their stats for a couple of seasons. Palmeiro should probably get in, but lying in front of Congress was just dumb.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I don't believe Sosa and McGwire should get in though. They were one trick ponies who skewed their stats for a couple of seasons. Palmeiro should probably get in, but lying in front of Congress was just dumb.

 

Yeah, that's what I meant about the HRs. Without them, they are slightly-above-average players at best, and they broke down quickly. But I think with the HR numbers, and without the PED cloud, they would have gotten more votes. I doubt they would have gotten the HR numbers in the first place, but if they had done it cleanly, a lot of voters would automatically vote for guys with their HR numbers regardless of other stats.

[Slasher9]

I don't believe Sosa and McGwire should get in though. They were one trick ponies who skewed their stats for a couple of seasons. Palmeiro should probably get in, but lying in front of Congress was just dumb.

 

i dont understand your post.

McGwire played 16 seasons of MLB ball. His first full season he hit 49 HR's and was ROY. his final season he hit 29. ending up with 583 dongs.

Sosa played 18 seasons. 12 seasons with over 25 HR's. 11 seasons with 33+ HR's. and 7 seasons with more than 40! hr's. MVP. finished his career with 609!!! bombs.

how can you say clemens and bonds deserve to be in but not these two???

[Spudboy]

That was my point.

 

I never said he did or didn't use PEDs, just that there is a cloud and that combined with being pretty much a career DH may make it tougher.

 

That is how I interpreted your post.

 

And your observations are valid.

[Maxbialystock]

TBSB made a valid point, even if he is a damned Yankees fan. Proven or not, there is talk of steroids associated with David Ortiz. Maybe not as much as with Bonds or McGwire, but enough to make me doubt that he will be inducted within his first few years. I do think that eventually all of these guys will be inducted; Bonds, Ortiz, Clemens, et cetera cannot be denied forever. Their stats are just too good, even from the years where they were not proven to have used or allegedly used PEDs. As for the DH issue, Edgar Martinez has still not been inducted, and that indicates to me that TBSB's other point, that Ortiz' career as a DH might hinder his chances, is also valid. We've had to learn after years of posting by jacksonianmarch that we can't ignore unfavorable opinions or insights about the Red Sox just because they come from Yankees fans. TBSB may be annoying, but in this particular thread, he is absolutely correct in that there is a chance that these issues might hamstring Ortiz's HOF chances. Accusing someone of trolling simply for posting a contrary opinion has long been the last refuge of those with no rebuttal. If you disagree with TBSB, then explain why with opinions, facts, and debate instead of insults. And TBSB, stop responding to it with more insults.

 

Wow. Now I began to understand the importance of being the new guy. A Yankee fan--and I know many and always have friendly discussions with them--takes over a thread entitled "Making History," which is about several Sox doing significant statistical things this season, only one of whom is David Ortiz. He takes this opportunity to lambast one of our favorite players over a "cloud" hanging over Ortiz's head. I take up the cause to defend Ortiz even though I agree he was in fact tested and failed in 2003. My point is that Ortiz has been, for all any of us know, been absolutely clean since 2003, which was Ortiz's first year in Boston, where his huge success began. Earlier with the Twins he was not nearly what he became, yet one can presume that was the period, assuming there was one, of presumed PED use. MLB started serious testing, which has continued unabated, in 2004. This year, 2016, 13 years after 2003 and after many, many drug tests which were all negative, Ortiz is having an incredible year for someone of his age. Said Yankee fan attacks Ortiz, not just for that 2003 test, but for everything Ortiz has accomplished since then, including this year.

 

And our arbiter of all that is sensible takes the side of said Yankee fan, whose only apparent purpose was to prevent any Sox fan discussion of "making history" in 2016. And I, the newbie, find myself, once again, on the wrong side of the argument because I had the temerity to defend Ortiz.

[mvp 78]

Bonds - 162 WAR, JAWS 117

Clemens - 140 WAR, JAWS 103

Sosa - 58 WAR, JAWS 58 (worse than Larry Walker, Dwight Evans, Reggie Smith)

McGwire - 62 WAR, JAWS 52 (worse than Palmeiro and Bagwell)

 

JAWS is a great Hall of Fame indicator. I think there are much more deserving people to vote for than McGwire and Sosa. Therefore, they don't get in.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Yeah, that's what I meant about the HRs. Without them, they are slightly-above-average players at best, and they broke down quickly. But I think with the HR numbers, and without the PED cloud, they would have gotten more votes. I doubt they would have gotten the HR numbers in the first place, but if they had done it cleanly, a lot of voters would automatically vote for guys with their HR numbers regardless of other stats.

 

Isn't Palmiero a member of the 3K hit club? He was also a pretty good fielder from what I recall. To say he didn't do anything outside of his PED induced HR totals is just wrong.

[mvp 78]

Max,

 

Ortiz is putting himself into rare air with the offensive numbers he will end up with. it will be very difficult for the HoF voters to keep him out.

 

TBSB responded to this by saying that it would be hard for him to get in due to the PED rumors.

 

Not sure what the big deal is?

[Youk Of The Nation]

i dont understand your post.

McGwire played 16 seasons of MLB ball. His first full season he hit 49 HR's and was ROY. his final season he hit 29. ending up with 583 dongs.

Sosa played 18 seasons. 12 seasons with over 25 HR's. 11 seasons with 33+ HR's. and 7 seasons with more than 40! hr's. MVP. finished his career with 609!!! bombs.

how can you say clemens and bonds deserve to be in but not these two???

 

Because those seasons with lots of HRs were their only noteworthy accomplishments. Neither of them sniffed 3000 hits despite 16 and 18 years in the majors hitting bombs. They didn't accumulate a HOF-worthy resume of hits, walks, batting average, or anything other than those HRs. McGwire isn't even on the top 1000 list of career batting average. Sosa is in a five-way tie for 840th that includes Erick Aybar. McGwire and Sosa are low on the list of top career WAR. (160 and 197 respectively, behind guys like David Cone and Chase Utley.) On the list for career OBP, McGwire is 81st, behind Johnny Pesky, Bobby Abreu, John Olerud, and John Kruk. I could go on and on. Most of the guys ahead of them in these categories are not in the HOF, that's how far behind they are. HRs are the beginning and end of their skill set.

[Slasher9]

Max. i believe most Red Sox fans are scared of Yankees fans. it's from all those years where the yankees were the hammer and the red sox were the nail. growing up in enemy territory i grew up scrapping and clawing with the MFY fans. so me, i'm not scared to call them out or go back at them. after all, i drive around in NJ with my personalized NJ license plate RDSOX. pretty sure i get 50-100 middle fingers a day.

but between 10 years at BDC and my short time here i once again see Sox fans catering to the MFY fan that is only here to stir the pot.

 

FWIW - i believe that jacksonian is like our "jeter" from BDC and is not here to just sitr the pot but to have insightful discussion.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Wow. Now I began to understand the importance of being the new guy. A Yankee fan--and I know many and always have friendly discussions with them--takes over a thread entitled "Making History," which is about several Sox doing significant statistical things this season, only one of whom is David Ortiz. He takes this opportunity to lambast one of our favorite players over a "cloud" hanging over Ortiz's head. I take up the cause to defend Ortiz even though I agree he was in fact tested and failed in 2003. My point is that Ortiz has been, for all any of us know, been absolutely clean since 2003, which was Ortiz's first year in Boston, where his huge success began. Earlier with the Twins he was not nearly what he became, yet one can presume that was the period, assuming there was one, of presumed PED use. MLB started serious testing, which has continued unabated, in 2004. This year, 2016, 13 years after 2003 and after many, many drug tests which were all negative, Ortiz is having an incredible year for someone of his age. Said Yankee fan attacks Ortiz, not just for that 2003 test, but for everything Ortiz has accomplished since then, including this year.

 

And our arbiter of all that is sensible takes the side of said Yankee fan, whose only apparent purpose was to prevent any Sox fan discussion of "making history" in 2016. And I, the newbie, find myself, once again, on the wrong side of the argument because I had the temerity to defend Ortiz.

 

I would suggest you take a course in reading comprehension as it is something that you obviously do not have a firm grasp on at this time.

 

I neither lambasted nor attacked Ortiz.

 

Please, get a clue.

[Slasher9]

Bonds - 162 WAR, JAWS 117

Clemens - 140 WAR, JAWS 103

Sosa - 58 WAR, JAWS 58 (worse than Larry Walker, Dwight Evans, Reggie Smith)

McGwire - 62 WAR, JAWS 52 (worse than Palmeiro and Bagwell)

 

JAWS is a great Hall of Fame indicator. I think there are much more deserving people to vote for than McGwire and Sosa. Therefore, they don't get in.

 

fair point.

[Spudboy]

Wow. Now I began to understand the importance of being the new guy. A Yankee fan--and I know many and always have friendly discussions with them--takes over a thread entitled "Making History," which is about several Sox doing significant statistical things this season, only one of whom is David Ortiz. He takes this opportunity to lambast one of our favorite players over a "cloud" hanging over Ortiz's head. I take up the cause to defend Ortiz even though I agree he was in fact tested and failed in 2003. My point is that Ortiz has been, for all any of us know, been absolutely clean since 2003, which was Ortiz's first year in Boston, where his huge success began. Earlier with the Twins he was not nearly what he became, yet one can presume that was the period, assuming there was one, of presumed PED use. MLB started serious testing, which has continued unabated, in 2004. This year, 2016, 13 years after 2003 and after many, many drug tests which were all negative, Ortiz is having an incredible year for someone of his age. Said Yankee fan attacks Ortiz, not just for that 2003 test, but for everything Ortiz has accomplished since then, including this year.

 

And our arbiter of all that is sensible takes the side of said Yankee fan, whose only apparent purpose was to prevent any Sox fan discussion of "making history" in 2016. And I, the newbie, find myself, once again, on the wrong side of the argument because I had the temerity to defend Ortiz.

 

I think that you are overreacting.

 

Yankee fan or not, he stated facts that most of us on Talksox see.

 

Newbie has nothing to do with this at all.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

I think that you are overreacting.

 

Yankee fan or not, he stated facts that most of us on Talksox see.

 

Newbie has nothing to do with this at all.

 

Thanks.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Wow. Now I began to understand the importance of being the new guy. A Yankee fan--and I know many and always have friendly discussions with them--takes over a thread entitled "Making History," which is about several Sox doing significant statistical things this season, only one of whom is David Ortiz. He takes this opportunity to lambast one of our favorite players over a "cloud" hanging over Ortiz's head. I take up the cause to defend Ortiz even though I agree he was in fact tested and failed in 2003. My point is that Ortiz has been, for all any of us know, been absolutely clean since 2003, which was Ortiz's first year in Boston, where his huge success began. Earlier with the Twins he was not nearly what he became, yet one can presume that was the period, assuming there was one, of presumed PED use. MLB started serious testing, which has continued unabated, in 2004. This year, 2016, 13 years after 2003 and after many, many drug tests which were all negative, Ortiz is having an incredible year for someone of his age. Said Yankee fan attacks Ortiz, not just for that 2003 test, but for everything Ortiz has accomplished since then, including this year.

 

And our arbiter of all that is sensible takes the side of said Yankee fan, whose only apparent purpose was to prevent any Sox fan discussion of "making history" in 2016. And I, the newbie, find myself, once again, on the wrong side of the argument because I had the temerity to defend Ortiz.

 

Oh my God, you are the most insufferable, intransigent, obnoxious person I have ever seen who hasn't actually done anything worthy of being kicked off the site. Cut it out with the martyr complex already. This thread was about Sox records, and TBSB made an entirely valid point about the possibility of Ortiz's HOF candidacy being difficult because of the PED era and the DH situation. That's what this site is for, discussing baseball, from both sides of an argument. He was not trying to prevent discussion of making history, he was literally starting a discussion about future history.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Oh my God, you are the most insufferable, intransigent, obnoxious person I have ever seen who hasn't actually done anything worthy of being kicked off the site. Cut it out with the martyr complex already. This thread was about Sox records, and TBSB made an entirely valid point about the possibility of Ortiz's HOF candidacy being difficult because of the PED era and the DH situation. That's what this site is for, discussing baseball, from both sides of an argument. He was not trying to prevent discussion of making history, he was literally starting a discussion about future history.

 

Exactly, thanks.

[Slasher9]

I would suggest you take a course in reading comprehension as it is something that you obviously do not have a firm grasp on at this time.

 

I neither lambasted nor attacked Ortiz.

 

Please, get a clue.

it's a fair point to say that the only reason you commented was to knock Ortiz down a peg. whether sound reasoning or not. to say otherwise is a lie babe.

[Youk Of The Nation]

it's a fair point to say that the only reason you commented was to knock Ortiz down a peg. whether sound reasoning or not. to say otherwise is a lie babe.

 

No, the only reason he commented was presumably to start a discussion about Ortiz's records and whether or not past events will have an impact on whether those records allow him into the HOF. Oddly, he seems to be the only one who wants to have that discussion. You guys have spent two pages accusing him of trolling, but trolls do not work that way. If he wanted to troll, he would have said "Ortiz is a juicer and no matter what he does this year, he's not going into the HOF ever. Sox suck!" and then left the thread, never to return. Instead, he posted a comment that would usually open some sort of debate like the one MVP, TBSB, and I have been trying in vain to have. Instead of defending his position or offering more data, though, he has been stuck defending himself against you guys for two pages. Instead of coming up with a list of reasons why he posted what he did, why don't you rebut it, or talk about it? Respond to what he said instead of to who said it.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I can't believe my life has been reduced to defending a Yankees fan against internet comments.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

No, the only reason he commented was presumably to start a discussion about Ortiz's records and whether or not past events will have an impact on whether those records allow him into the HOF. Oddly, he seems to be the only one who wants to have that discussion. You guys have spent two pages accusing him of trolling, but trolls do not work that way. If he wanted to troll, he would have said "Ortiz is a juicer and no matter what he does this year, he's not going into the HOF ever. Sox suck!" and then left the thread, never to return. Instead, he posted a comment that would usually open some sort of debate like the one MVP, TBSB, and I have been trying in vain to have. Instead of defending his position or offering more data, though, he has been stuck defending himself against you guys for two pages. Instead of coming up with a list of reasons why he posted what he did, why don't you rebut it, or talk about it? Respond to what he said instead of to who said it.

 

Bingo!!

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

I can't believe my life has been reduced to defending a Yankees fan against internet comments.

 

It's certainly appreciated.

 

I thought we were fine until those two derailed the thread.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Now, to prevent me from looking silly, please elaborate on your original post. Some of the other users have a point in that Ortiz's PED connection is not nearly as strong, public, or well-known as others, which suggests it is not all that serious. What about it makes you think it might arise as an issue in 2021?

[illinoisredsox]

Max/Slasher,

 

Remember, as BDC alums we have a corporate memory regarding a certain poster and the old guard here does not, which almost for sure tends to jaundice our view of what said poster writes.

 

It's not worth getting in a tizzy about. There's plenty of Sox news to discuss.

[User Name]

So reality is not reality if it comes from the fingertips of a (admittedly annoying) Yankees fan?

 

There are other things for Ortiz to contend with on his way to Cooperstown. Ortiz has had to wear the “Scarlet S” for failing a drug test back in 2003. That was supposed to be a secret test — it was before MLB and the players’ union had agreed on a testing policy — but Ortiz’s name was discovered, and for many (including, undoubtedly, some Hall of Fame voters) that test invalidated everything he did from that point on.

 

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/david-ortiz-hall-fame-complicated/

 

I mean, it's been part of the discussion for years.

[Youk Of The Nation]

(admittedly annoying) Yankees fan?

 

You're being redundant.

[User Name]

You're being redundant.

 

On purpose, mind you.