Making History

[Slasher9]

No, the only reason he commented was presumably to start a discussion about Ortiz's records and whether or not past events will have an impact on whether those records allow him into the HOF. Oddly, he seems to be the only one who wants to have that discussion. You guys have spent two pages accusing him of trolling, but trolls do not work that way. If he wanted to troll, he would have said "Ortiz is a juicer and no matter what he does this year, he's not going into the HOF ever. Sox suck!" and then left the thread, never to return. Instead, he posted a comment that would usually open some sort of debate like the one MVP, TBSB, and I have been trying in vain to have. Instead of defending his position or offering more data, though, he has been stuck defending himself against you guys for two pages. Instead of coming up with a list of reasons why he posted what he did, why don't you rebut it, or talk about it? Respond to what he said instead of to who said it.

 

obviously you didnt read my posts to him. i asked him for links. he said "google it". i didnt type the word troll. i simply pointed out to him (correctly) that the only reason he posted in this thread was to take a shot at Papi. he is new to you. you will learn.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Now, to prevent me from looking silly, please elaborate on your original post. Some of the other users have a point in that Ortiz's PED connection is not nearly as strong, public, or well-known as others, which suggests it is not all that serious. What about it makes you think it might arise as an issue in 2021?

 

While it may not be as wide known as say a Bonds or a Clemens, it is still widely acknowledged outside of the NE area.

 

And it certainly was bigger news than anything concerning Bagwell, and he's still on the outside looking in.

 

That and being pretty much a career DH is what led me to post that.

[Slasher9]

Max/Slasher,

 

Remember, as BDC alums we have a corporate memory regarding a certain poster and the old guard here does not, which almost for sure tends to jaundice our view of what said poster writes.

 

It's not worth getting in a tizzy about. There's plenty of Sox news to discuss.

 

Fair enough. thanks for getting my mind straight IL.

[Dojji]

“I called my agent and asked what was going on,’’ Ortiz wrote. “He didn’t have any answers for me. I called the MLB Players’ Association and they didn’t have any answers for me. To this day, nobody has any answers for me. Nobody can tell me what I supposedly tested positive for. They say they legally can’t, because the tests were never supposed to be public.”

 

Ortiz knew he would be tested that spring. Players and owners, under fire from Congress, had agreed to confidential screenings of every major leaguer to gauge the scope of steroid use in baseball.

 

“I believed I had nothing to be afraid of,’’ Ortiz said. “I never thought I could buy anything over the counter that would get me in trouble.’’

 

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/26/david-ortiz-still-haunted-failed-drug-test/Cvcd1E7am8OybqLpNA6uKP/story.html

 

How the hell can you accuse anyone of abusing PED's when no one even actually knows exactly what he is supposed to have used?

 

Especially in context of the fact that about 5-10% of PED tests will result in false positives. That may seem like good odds, but when you're talking about disqualifying one of the best hitters in history for the rewards he would be due for his performance, such as Hall of Fame credentials, I think that at the bare minimum you should have at least 2 failed tests to back it up, when we're talking about a potential false positive utterly screwing a guy over I don't think I'm being completely unreasonable here

 

Anyone can make an allegation. but unless that allegation is backed by *some* kind of due process, like Clemens or Bonds or A-Rod, or at least confirmed from multiple sources regarding multiple incidents (not just one test 13 years ago) such as McGwire or Sosa, I don't think it should be taken all that seriously.

 

Without a second failed test or even clear details about what he is said to have abused, there just isn't enough information for a fair-minded fan (if that isn't an oxymoron) to pass judgment on a guy. In the absence of any additional proof, this is an accusation of convenience by people drinking the haterade, nothing more.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Dojji

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

obviously you didnt read my posts to him. i asked him for links. he said "google it". i didnt type the word troll. i simply pointed out to him (correctly) that the only reason he posted in this thread was to take a shot at Papi. he is new to you. you will learn.

 

No, my "google it" response to you was due to the stupidity of your request.

[S5Dewey]

It's certainly appreciated.

 

I thought we were fine until those two derailed the thread.

 

Tell me again. Who was it who derailed this thread? It started out being about the accomplishments of JBJ, Mookie, Bogarts and Papi and now it's become a thread all about David Ortiz and the PED issue.

 

So again... who was it who derailed it?

 

My suggestion: Maybe we need a separate thread about David Ortiz and PED's and leave this one to the positive accomplishments of the 2016 Red Sox - which is where it started.

[Youk Of The Nation]

While it may not be as wide known as say a Bonds or a Clemens, it is still widely acknowledged outside of the NE area.

 

And it certainly was bigger news than anything concerning Bagwell, and he's still on the outside looking in.

 

That and being pretty much a career DH is what led me to post that.

 

I've never heard anything about Bagwell, I always assumed he was still not in just because his stats were on the edge of acceptability. I figured he'd get in after a while on the ballot.

 

As far as the Ortiz thing, it may be widely acknowledged, but the seriousness of it seems to be pretty low. Most of the articles I can find never really suggest that he was using regularly. In fact, most of them imply that a lot of the names leaked from that initial list might not have been exactly on the level. I still agree with you that it will be a consideration, but I think you might be overstating how much of a consideration. I think he'll get in, but I think it will take four or five years of voting before he does.

[Slasher9]

Pitchers

 

Roger Clemens - 1999-2003, 2007. Former Yankees trainer Brian McNamee said he injected Clemens with growth hormone and steroids. Clemens denied using banned drugs and sued McNamee for defamation.

 

Andy Pettitte - 1995-2003, 2007. McNamee said he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone to heal a shoulder injury. Pettitte acknowledged using the drugs.

 

Kevin Brown - 2004-2005. From 2001, when he was a Dodger, to 2004, when he was a Yankee, Brown bought human growth hormone and steroids from former Mets batboy and confessed steroid dealer Kirk Radomski, Mitchell wrote.

 

Mike Stanton - 1997-2002; 2005. While a Yankee, Stanton met Radomski, Mitchell wrote. In 2003, after Stanton had joined the Mets, Radomski delivered growth hormone to him at Shea Stadium.

 

Denny Neagle - 2000. While a Yankee, Neagle met Radomski in a nightclub and bought growth hormone from him five or six times in four years, Mitchell wrote.

 

Jason Grimsley - 1999-2000. Grimsley bought $35,000 worth of drugs from Radomski while on the Yankees and three other teams, Mitchell wrote. In the Yankees bullpen in 2000, Grimsley showed steroid pills to McNamee, Mitchell wrote.

 

Ricky Bones - 1996. In 2000, when he was with the Florida Marlins, syringes and steroids were found in Bones' locker, Mitchell wrote. Bones said he got the drugs in Puerto Rico to treat a degenerative hip.

 

Ron Villone - 2006-2007. Villone bought growth hormone from Radomski in 2004 and 2005, while on the Mariners, Mitchell wrote. After he joined the Yankees, Villone called Radomski seeking more drugs, but by then federal agents had targeted the dealer, Mitchell wrote.

 

Dan Naulty - 1999. While with the Twins, he bought steroids from dealers in gyms, but stopped using the drugs when he joined the Yankees, Mitchell wrote. In a first-person article in the New York Daily News, Naulty implied he continued to use steroids and growth hormone with the Yankees.

 

Todd Williams - 2001. Radomski said he sold steroids to Williams in 2001.

 

Carlos Almanzar - 2001. With Texas in 2005, he was suspended 10 days for failing a steroid test.

 

Felix Heredia - 2003-04. With the Mets in 2005, he was suspended 10 days for failing a steroid test.

 

Darren Holmes - 1998. He told Sports Illustrated that in 2003, with the Braves, he bought growth hormone from an online pharmacy but never used it.

 

Josias Manzanillo - 1995. Radomski said he injected Manzanillo with steroids on the Mets in 1994. Manzanillo said he bought steroids but never used them.

OTHERS

 

Bobby Estalella - Catcher, 2001. Told the BALCO grand jury that in 2002, with the Rockies, he got growth hormone and BALCO steroids from Greg Anderson, Barry Bonds' trainer.

 

Jim Leyritz - Catcher, 1990-1996, 1999-2000. He told the New York Post he used growth hormone during spring training 2001 in a failed attempt to catch on with the Mets.

 

Jason Giambi - First baseman, 2002-2007. He told the BALCO grand jury he obtained growth hormone and BALCO steroids from Anderson in 2002 and 2003.

 

Hal Morris - First baseman, outfielder, 1988-1989. While with the Reds in 1999, Morris bought steroids from Radomski, Mitchell wrote. Morris denied it.

 

Chuck Knoblauch - Infielder, 1998-2001. McNamee said he injected Knoblauch with growth hormone in 2001. Knoblauch also bought growth hormone from Grimsley, McNamee told Mitchell.

 

Randy Velarde - Infielder, 2001. Obtained BALCO steroids from Anderson, the player's lawyer said. Drug agents saw Velarde in the BALCO parking lot in 2002, while he was on the Oakland A's.

 

Jose Canseco - Outfielder, 2000. The self-proclaimed steroid pioneer joined the Yankees for the 2000 pennant run.

 

Glenallen Hill - Outfielder, 2000. Mitchell wrote that Hill bought human growth hormone from Radomski in 2000. Radomski said Hill, a former Giant, complained that growth hormone he had obtained in San Francisco was ineffective. Hill told Mitchell he bought steroids from Radomski but never used the drugs.

 

David Justice - Outfielder, 2000-2001. Mitchell wrote that Justice bought growth hormone from Radomski after the 2000 World Series. Justice denied using the drugs.

 

Gary Sheffield - Outfielder, 2004-2006. Sheffield told the BALCO grand jury that at Bonds' instruction, he used BALCO steroids after the 2003 season, when he was about to join the Yankees. He said he didn't know the substances were steroids until later.

 

Matt Lawton - Outfielder, 2005. He was suspended 10 days for failing a steroid test in 2005.

 

Rondell White - Outfielder, 2002. Radomski said he delivered drugs to White's New York residence in 2002.

[User Name]

“I called my agent and asked what was going on,’’ Ortiz wrote. “He didn’t have any answers for me. I called the MLB Players’ Association and they didn’t have any answers for me. To this day, nobody has any answers for me. Nobody can tell me what I supposedly tested positive for. They say they legally can’t, because the tests were never supposed to be public.”

 

Ortiz knew he would be tested that spring. Players and owners, under fire from Congress, had agreed to confidential screenings of every major leaguer to gauge the scope of steroid use in baseball.

 

“I believed I had nothing to be afraid of,’’ Ortiz said. “I never thought I could buy anything over the counter that would get me in trouble.’’

 

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/26/david-ortiz-still-haunted-failed-drug-test/Cvcd1E7am8OybqLpNA6uKP/story.html

 

How the hell can you accuse anyone of abusing PED's when no one even actually knows exactly what he used?

 

Simple. Because MLB panicked and handled the PED situation like f***ing morons. That has lead to a number of deserving guys (Bagwell) getting punished based on speculation alone. Ortiz' case is more significant because he actually failed a test, even if it was for cold medicine like Mondesi Jr., to the writers, a failed test is a failed test is a failed test. It's unfair, stupid even, but it's how the Old Boys' network of MLB writers works.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

obviously you didnt read my posts to him. i asked him for links. he said "google it". i didnt type the word troll. i simply pointed out to him (correctly) that the only reason he posted in this thread was to take a shot at Papi. he is new to you. you will learn.

 

And I didn't take any shots at Papi.

 

I never said he did or didn't take PEDs.

 

I simply acknowledged that there has been suspicion and that has been more than enough to keep others like Bagwell out.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Tell me again. Who was it who derailed this thread? It started out being about the accomplishments of JBJ, Mookie, Bogarts and Papi and now it's become a thread all about David Ortiz and the PED issue.

 

So again... who was it who derailed it?

 

My suggestion: Maybe we need a separate thread about David Ortiz and PED's and leave this one to the positive accomplishments of the 2016 Red Sox - which is where it started.

 

We have several threads going at the moment where the positive accomplishments of this year's team could have been discussed. This thread was about Red Sox records. I think David Ortiz's HOF candidacy and associated issues are a perfect topic for that header.

[Slasher9]

No, my "google it" response to you was due to the stupidity of your request.

 

tell me what he tested positive for. show me the link.

[Youk Of The Nation]

tell me what he tested positive for. show me the link.

 

Nobody knows, including Ortiz himself. There is no link. However, the mere accusation is enough these days to cause suspicion. That may be unfair or even outright wrong, but it is the truth. The fact that his name has been associated with PEDs in any way is enough to bring the cloud of PEDs hovering over so many stars of the 90's and 00's over his head as well.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Tell me again. Who was it who derailed this thread? It started out being about the accomplishments of JBJ, Mookie, Bogarts and Papi and now it's become a thread all about David Ortiz and the PED issue.

 

So again... who was it who derailed it?

 

My suggestion: Maybe we need a separate thread about David Ortiz and PED's and leave this one to the positive accomplishments of the 2016 Red Sox - which is where it started.

 

My post was baseball related, unlike the ones attacking me of trolling.

 

And it seems that the mod and other long term posters here agree.

[S5Dewey]

We have several threads going at the moment where the positive accomplishments of this year's team could have been discussed. This thread was about Red Sox records. I think David Ortiz's HOF candidacy and associated issues are a perfect topic for that header.

 

 

And you, sir, if I may say so, are being taken advantage of by an expert troll.

[Maxbialystock]

Oh my God, you are the most insufferable, intransigent, obnoxious person I have ever seen who hasn't actually done anything worthy of being kicked off the site. Cut it out with the martyr complex already. This thread was about Sox records, and TBSB made an entirely valid point about the possibility of Ortiz's HOF candidacy being difficult because of the PED era and the DH situation. That's what this site is for, discussing baseball, from both sides of an argument. He was not trying to prevent discussion of making history, he was literally starting a discussion about future history.

 

Let's review the bidding. The Babe's argument consists entirely of the cloud over Ortiz's head. None of us have forgotten it. I simply pointed out some facts--that the failed test was in 2003 before MLB testing in 2004 and after and before Ortiz's hitting took off. I didn't even mention that his early success, 2003-2008, was probably mostly due to the simply fact that the guy following him in the lineup was one of the best righty hitters ever. I emphasized that this year, 2016, one of Ortiz's very best years, has occurred after more than a decade of announced and unannounced tests and is very likely legitimate.

 

At no point did I insult anyone--your or him--by calling them obnoxious, insufferable or intransigent. For the most part I simply stated some facts and what I regard as reasonable suppositions. Indeed, I think I did a much better job of fairly arguing the "cloud" than the Babe did in presenting it in the first place.

 

I am guilty of commenting on which side you took and implying it's because Babe is an old hand and I am not. You have taken grave exception to that, and I continue to be astounded that defending Ortiz deserves censure, especially when simply stated facts and reasonable suppositions (I can't prove Ortiz hasn't used PED's since 2003). You have also glossed over the fact that the Babe has taken over a thread which was supposed to be about "making history," which to me was and is a pretty good topic. Instead, we are now arguing about Ortiz's cloud and the Babe's right to make that the center of attention.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

tell me what he tested positive for. show me the link.

 

I have no idea, but Papi himself admitted to being on the list.

 

And read the link I pasted a few pages back. It explains that either Papi has grossly exaggerated the amount of times he's been tested or he's in the program.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Let's review the bidding. The Babe's argument consists entirely of the cloud over Ortiz's head. None of us have forgotten it. I simply pointed out some facts--that the failed test was in 2003 before MLB testing in 2004 and after and before Ortiz's hitting took off. I didn't even mention that his early success, 2003-2008, was probably mostly due to the simply fact that the guy following him in the lineup was one of the best righty hitters ever. I emphasized that this year, 2016, one of Ortiz's very best years, has occurred after more than a decade of announced and unannounced tests and is very likely legitimate.

 

At no point did I insult anyone--your or him--by calling them obnoxious, insufferable or intransigent. For the most part I simply stated some facts and what I regard as reasonable suppositions. Indeed, I think I did a much better job of fairly arguing the "cloud" than the Babe did in presenting it in the first place.

 

I am guilty of commenting on which side you took and implying it's because Babe is an old hand and I am not. You have taken grave exception to that, and I continue to be astounded that defending Ortiz deserves censure, especially when simply stated facts and reasonable suppositions (I can't prove Ortiz hasn't used PED's since 2003). You have also glossed over the fact that the Babe has taken over a thread which was supposed to be about "making history," which to me was and is a pretty good topic. Instead, we are now arguing about Ortiz's cloud and the Babe's right to make that the center of attention.

 

I took the side of the baseball debate. Babe is as new as you are, this has nothing to do with how long anyone has been here. Defending Ortiz does not deserve censure, and no one is censoring you. Defend Ortiz all you want, that's what this discussion is about. Just do it with baseball-related conversation instead of attacking the person who posted it directly. Respond to the post, not the person who made it. If you disagree with something, say why, don't dismiss it based on the messenger.

[mvp 78]

The witch hunt against TBSB took over the thread, not TBSB's post.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I have no idea, but Papi himself admitted to being on the list.

 

And read the link I pasted a few pages back. It explains that either Papi has grossly exaggerated the amount of times he's been tested or he's in the program.

 

You deleted that post with the link. Do you want me to undelete it? I don't remember if you guys can undelete your own posts or not.

[Slasher9]

http://giant.gfycat.com/FailingEvergreenFirebelliedtoad.gif

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Let's review the bidding. The Babe's argument consists entirely of the cloud over Ortiz's head. None of us have forgotten it. I simply pointed out some facts--that the failed test was in 2003 before MLB testing in 2004 and after and before Ortiz's hitting took off. I didn't even mention that his early success, 2003-2008, was probably mostly due to the simply fact that the guy following him in the lineup was one of the best righty hitters ever. I emphasized that this year, 2016, one of Ortiz's very best years, has occurred after more than a decade of announced and unannounced tests and is very likely legitimate.

 

At no point did I insult anyone--your or him--by calling them obnoxious, insufferable or intransigent. For the most part I simply stated some facts and what I regard as reasonable suppositions. Indeed, I think I did a much better job of fairly arguing the "cloud" than the Babe did in presenting it in the first place.

 

I am guilty of commenting on which side you took and implying it's because Babe is an old hand and I am not. You have taken grave exception to that, and I continue to be astounded that defending Ortiz deserves censure, especially when simply stated facts and reasonable suppositions (I can't prove Ortiz hasn't used PED's since 2003). You have also glossed over the fact that the Babe has taken over a thread which was supposed to be about "making history," which to me was and is a pretty good topic. Instead, we are now arguing about Ortiz's cloud and the Babe's right to make that the center of attention.

 

No, I said the cloud AND being primarily a DH could hinder his chances.

 

Geez, learn to read.

[Slasher9]

https://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_960w/Boston/2011-2020/2012/03/15/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/46039281H1292517.JPG

[Slasher9]

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/donzimmer8.gif?w=1000

[Slasher9]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OfIbb0JGL88/VyS9uXjjq-I/AAAAAAAARAk/Mjytx7Ko5u85mbnmdV8FVH7MGusfJsCFwCLcB/s1600/betterpapbomb.gif

[Slasher9]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JYij8OalNpU/UaywZQzwA3I/AAAAAAAAKxI/qv5hhoYK-gY/s640/2013-06-03-ortizbatflip.gif

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

You deleted that post with the link. Do you want me to undelete it? I don't remember if you guys can undelete your own posts or not.

 

Please do undelete it.

 

I was trying to edit it and it got deleted.

 

Being a newbie I'm still trying to get accustomed to the new site. Thanks.

[Slasher9]

http://m.mlb.com/assets/images/5/9/8/98847598/cuts/Roberts_Steal_1280_c3vbj53a_9wzgvzaj.jpg

[User Name]

Let's review the bidding. The Babe's argument consists entirely of the cloud over Ortiz's head. None of us have forgotten it. I simply pointed out some facts--that the failed test was in 2003 before MLB testing in 2004 and after and before Ortiz's hitting took off. I didn't even mention that his early success, 2003-2008, was probably mostly due to the simply fact that the guy following him in the lineup was one of the best righty hitters ever. I emphasized that this year, 2016, one of Ortiz's very best years, has occurred after more than a decade of announced and unannounced tests and is very likely legitimate.

 

At no point did I insult anyone--your or him--by calling them obnoxious, insufferable or intransigent. For the most part I simply stated some facts and what I regard as reasonable suppositions. Indeed, I think I did a much better job of fairly arguing the "cloud" than the Babe did in presenting it in the first place.

 

I am guilty of commenting on which side you took and implying it's because Babe is an old hand and I am not. You have taken grave exception to that, and I continue to be astounded that defending Ortiz deserves censure, especially when simply stated facts and reasonable suppositions (I can't prove Ortiz hasn't used PED's since 2003). You have also glossed over the fact that the Babe has taken over a thread which was supposed to be about "making history," which to me was and is a pretty good topic. Instead, we are now arguing about Ortiz's cloud and the Babe's right to make that the center of attention.

 

TheBabe is an old hand? He joined here a month ago!

[Slasher9]

hows this for making history....

http://www.thisgreatgame.com/2004side2.gif