Christian Vazquez

[Kimmi]

I disagree with your disagreement. His WAR totals are generally due to his long career. He hit well in a time period where almost everyone hit well. OVERRATED.

 

WAR, unfortunately does not capture what Varitek was the best at, his game calling. Interestingly enough, Varitek was a poor pitch framer. Even with that, he was worth nearly 60 runs above average defensively from 2008 to 2011.

[mvp 78]

Not many, from any team, can top Fisk.

 

No, but many can top Tek. At least 6-10 during his career per your stats.

[mvp 78]

It's well known, VTek was the man when it came to how to approach opposing batters.

 

LOL. Same as clutch. Make believe.

[mvp 78]

WAR, unfortunately does not capture what Varitek was the best at, his game calling. Interestingly enough, Varitek was a poor pitch framer. Even with that, he was worth nearly 60 runs above average defensively from 2008 to 2011.

 

Game calling can’t be quantified like clutch. Therefore, it doesn’t exist.

[Kimmi]

Game calling can’t be quantified like clutch. Therefore, it doesn’t exist.

 

But it has been quantified, to the tune of nearly 60 runs over 4 years.

[mvp 78]

But it has been quantified, to the tune of nearly 60 runs over 4 years.

 

LOL nope.

[moonslav59]

No, but many can top Tek. At least 6-10 during his career per your stats.

 

6-10 in OPS, yes but like I said much of the value a catcher brings to the table in not quantified by stats or data, and those areas happen to be what VTek excelled at.

 

Many of the catchers with better OPS had mediocre to horrible reputations as staff handlers or defensive catchers:

 

1999-2008

.881 Piazza

.865 Posada

.837 IRod

.832 VMart (was already playing 1B/DH)

.826 Javy Lopez

.803 Mike Lieberthal

.788 VTek

 

I'd say he was top 4 or 5, but that's just m, I guess.

[SCM33]

Except for Fisk, no catcher has handled a pitching staff as well as varitek. Pitchers loved throwing to him and didn’t he catch something like 5 no hitters?

 

Except for Fisk, no catcher in our history can compare to him!

 

He was a perfect fit for our organization . And guess what, we got him in a trade and we did not overpay! Hint hint to desperate dave!!!!

 

Tony Pena won a gold glove in 1991.

 

That says more about the s***** C's this team has had.

 

Yup. If Rich Gedman is one of the best catchers your team has ever had......then you havent had very man good ones.

[SCM33]

6-10 in OPS, yes but like I said much of the value a catcher brings to the table in not quantified by stats or data, and those areas happen to be what VTek excelled at.

 

Many of the catchers with better OPS had mediocre to horrible reputations as staff handlers or defensive catchers:

 

1999-2008

.881 Piazza

.865 Posada

.837 IRod

.832 VMart (was already playing 1B/DH)

.826 Javy Lopez

.803 Mike Lieberthal

.788 VTek

 

I'd say he was top 4 or 5, but that's just m, I guess.

 

Victor Martinez was a full time catcher until 2010, where he caught 110 games with the Redsox.

 

This looks and feels like cherry picking stats.

[Bellhorn04]

That says more about the s***** C's this team has had.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any franchises in baseball that can claim to have had a lot of great all-around catchers. It's a very tough position that wears down the body rapidly.

[moonslav59]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any franchises in baseball that can claim to have had a lot of great all-around catchers. It's a very tough position that wears down the body rapidly.

 

True.

 

I will say, if Vaz turns out to be as good as VTek, I'll be thrilled.

[Larry Cook]

True.

 

I will say, if Vaz turns out to be as good as VTek, I'll be thrilled.

 

Amen brother!

[Spudboy]

I always liked Duane Josephson and Bob Montgomery.

 

Now there was a great catching duo.

[moonslav59]

Like longevity for a catcher should be held against VTek.

 

The guy had a very good 10 years stretch and a great 6 year run withing those 10 good years. Not many catchers put up years over .785 and handled a staff like VTek did. His numbers were brought down by playing longer.

 

If we want to go shorter term, like many catchers have done, VTek had the second best catcher OPS (.863) for a 3 year period (2003-2005). He had an .831 OPS from 2001-2005 (5 years). Only Piazza, Posada, IRod and Lopez were better on offense during that 5 year stretch. That group was never known for defense or pitch handling. Even .813 for a 7 year stretch is pretty damn good for a catcher known for his defense and how he handles a staff.

[moonslav59]

I always liked Duane Josephson and Bob Montgomery.

 

Now there was a great catching duo.

 

I remember them both.

 

Monty was a character. He was all over the place on offense, but with short sample sizes every year, that can be expected.

 

2 seasons over .870

1 season at .792

7 seasons under .685

 

Looks like Leon's career.

[Spudboy]

I remember them both.

 

Monty was a character. He was all over the place on offense, but with short sample sizes every year, that can be expected.

 

2 seasons over .870

1 season at .792

7 seasons under .685

 

Looks like Leon's career.

 

Neither was elite talent. But to me, they were "real men" as catchers. They looked the part and they were physical.

 

I miss that part of the game.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Spudboy

[moonslav59]

Neither was elite talent. But to me, they were "real men" as catchers. They looked the part and they were physical.

 

I mis that part of the game.

 

Oh, I agree!

 

They both had grit.

[sk7326]

It's well known, VTek was the man when it came to how to approach opposing batters.

 

He was - but it involved working with the stuff the team was giving them - scouts, analytic sorts, Francona.

 

I was taking issue with the idea that he was doing it as some sort of Rain Man - that the Red Sox had not done any "computer analysis" in 2003-2005

[moonslav59]

He was - but it involved working with the stuff the team was giving them - scouts, analytic sorts, Francona.

 

I was taking issue with the idea that he was doing it as some sort of Rain Man - that the Red Sox had not done any "computer analysis" in 2003-2005

 

I didn't mean it that way. Of course the Sox had data for VTek to use- maybe more than most teams during that time, but VTek had his own data, too, and he knew how to use all he had to the best level.

 

The amount of pitcher testimonials is evidence enough, but the numbers back him up even more. Pitchers on the Sox did way better when he was catching vs his back-up, a catcher who had the same team data VTek had access to. That's a tangible fact.

 

[Northern Star]

The kid has already proved he has elite defense. Most ive talked to think hes an automatic out and wanted Swihart here for his bat. I am a big fan of an elite defensive catcher. Moreso than any other position on the field, i will sacrifice offense for that elite D behind the plate.

With that said, Christian Vazquez WILL hit IMO, and will hit better than a lot of fans think. Will he do it right away? I believe he has already to a certain extent since most thought 220 would be about it...I believe he could be a 280+ hitter in MLB. Line drive gap to gap power. May run into 5-10 hr in a good year... Around a 700 OPS just because the SLG wont be really high.

Since being told in AA to start concentrating on his offense more, Vaz has shown a solid approach at the plate. His K rate went down and his bb rate went up. He was starting to make more solid contact and seeing more pitches. When being promoted to another level in the minors his BA was always around 275-280.

IMHO The Sox made the right choice when Vaz proved to be healthy. I know some were gushing over swihart, but I didnt like what I saw behind the plate at this point from him. He will certainly improve, but Im betting he will be involved in a trade this summer or winter for another starter...

Vazquez is the man here for the next decade...and the skeptics, IMO, will see over the next few years just how good of an all around ballplayer Vaz is going to be...

 

Are we allowed to have a Designated Catcher? Swihart bats in Vaz's spot.

[moonslav59]

Are we allowed to have a Designated Catcher? Swihart bats in Vaz's spot.

 

Right now, I view Vaz as the better hitter, but that could change.

 

Now, Swihart to DH for Leon would be an idea to put forward.

 

If it were to be allowed in the future, maybe the Angels would bat Ohtani and DH for their weakest hitter.

[Kimmi]

LOL nope.

 

Stat geeks are awesome, and very good at what they do. A catcher's impact on a pitcher is a very strong point of interest among them, one they have studied intensely, and they are making great strides in this area. After adjusting for pretty much every factor one could think of, including things like blocking pitches and pitch framing, Varitek earned 57.something more runs in that 4 year span for his pitchers than otherwise would have been expected. Believe it or not.

 

What's really good about this data is that it gels very well with the what one expect based on reputation.

[cp176]

Neither was elite talent. But to me, they were "real men" as catchers. They looked the part and they were physical.

 

I miss that part of the game.

 

Monty could hit a golf ball 5 miles too. he was a pretty good player.

[Larry Cook]

Right now, I view Vaz as the better hitter, but that could change.

 

Now, Swihart to DH for Leon would be an idea to put forward.

 

If it were to be allowed in the future, maybe the Angels would bat Ohtani and DH for their weakest hitter.

 

Leon clearly handles sale and to a lesser extent porcello better than Vazquez.

 

But Vazquez is the better hitter.

[Hugh2]

I see 2018 as a make or break year for Swihart. I have high hopes for the kid, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has a great season bouncing back. It could be a real uplifter for this team if he plays himself back into the fold.

[moonslav59]

Leon clearly handles sale and to a lesser extent porcello better than Vazquez.

 

But Vazquez is the better hitter.

 

The sample size of Sale with Vaz was tiny.

 

The numbers on Porcello are mixed over 2016 and 2017, but yes, Leon had better numbers. (Again, some sample sizes were small.)

[Larry Cook]

I see 2018 as a make or break year for Swihart. I have high hopes for the kid, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has a great season bouncing back. It could be a real uplifter for this team if he plays himself back into the fold.

 

At one point I considered Swihart and betts as untouchable.

[mvp 78]

The sample size of Sale with Vaz was tiny.

 

The numbers on Porcello are mixed over 2016 and 2017, but yes, Leon had better numbers. (Again, some sample sizes were small.)

 

If Vaz is truly a good catcher, he should be able to work with any pitcher. Leon is expendable.

[Larry Cook]

If Vaz is truly a good catcher, he should be able to work with any pitcher. Leon is expendable.

 

If? I take it you are not an advocate of the personal catcher strategy?

[mvp 78]

If? I take it you are not an advocate of the personal catcher strategy?

 

If you have a great defensive catcher, the personal catcher is not needed. Also, if the personal catcher goes down, the other guy has to catch up pretty quick. I'm not sure that's a very good strategy.