Christian Vazquez

[oldtimer]

Was it a Pomeranz thing or a Vazquez thing or just me last night with the parade of trips to the mound? I didn't like it. I don't like over catching any more than I like over coaching. I think one of the reasons I like Leon is that it looks simpler to me. He puts a sign down and it just seems like the pitcher tends to throw the ball. Plus the fact that I see 0 difference in their overall abilities or future potential going forward. I don't need flashy just competent behind the plate.

 

Several times he went to the mound with players on second and once when the umpire needed a break after beig hit. Still, he did go to the mound fairly often.

[moonslav59]

And your point is?

 

He has been injured much of this season.

 

The post said he is injured. I was pointing out that he is back from injury now.

 

I wasn't trying to make an argument.

 

You were right: his numbers are low in part because he has been out hurt.

[OH FOY]

Last 2 times Vazquez caught Kimbrel, Kimbrel has thrown 30 + Pitches. Something to keep an eye on. Maybe not comfortable with him. Edited June 7, 2017 by OH FOY!

[a700hitter]

Last 2 times Vazquez caught Kimbrel, Kimbrel has thrown over 30 + Pitches. Something to keep an eye on. Maybe not comfortable with him.

Last season there were times where Kimbrel clearly over powered Leon. I think he is very tough to catch.

[Bellhorn04]

Last season there were times where Kimbrel clearly over powered Leon. I think he is very tough to catch.

 

Christ yes, with that heat and those hard-breaking sliders.

[OH FOY]

Your probably right, I thought Kimbrel was all over the plate last year. I'll have to rely on you guys to tell me if his control is much better this year, They moved me to 2nd shift. Only Weekends with me, for now.

His BB's are down this year.

[S5Dewey]

Your probably right, I thought Kimbrel was all over the plate last year. I'll have to rely on you guys to tell me if his control is much better this year, They moved me to 2nd shift. Only Weekends with me, for now.

His BB's are down this year.

 

Ugh.. That work schedule sucks donkeys.

 

Kimbrel wasn't all over the plate last year. He was all over everything but the plate last year. His BB's are down but that doesn't begin to tell the story about how much better his control is this year than last.

 

The reason his BB's weren't worse last year is because his breaking pitches were breaking so sharply that they were't strikes by the time they got to the plate. However, they looked so good on the way in that the hitters were swinging at them. When they started taking more pitches they got more BB's. This year he's throwing enough strikes to keep the hitters honest... they don't dare take borderline pitches because they're strikes this year.

 

...at least that's my observation.

[moonslav59]

Ugh.. That work schedule sucks donkeys.

 

Kimbrel wasn't all over the plate last year. He was all over everything but the plate last year. His BB's are down but that doesn't begin to tell the story about how much better his control is this year than last.

 

The reason his BB's weren't worse last year is because his breaking pitches were breaking so sharply that they were't strikes by the time they got to the plate. However, they looked so good on the way in that the hitters were swinging at them. When they started taking more pitches they got more BB's. This year he's throwing enough strikes to keep the hitters honest... they don't dare take borderline pitches because they're strikes this year.

 

...at least that's my observation.

 

Seems about right.

 

I hope he keeps this up.

 

One other factor I noticed when looking at our three ring years besides having our top 4 or 5 starters all get 25 starts was having a top closer:

 

Foulke in '04 (71 appearances/ 0.940 WHIP)

--playoffs 1 ER in 14 IP (19 Ks)

 

Papelbon in 2007 (13.0 K/9 and 1.85 ERA/0.771 WHIP)

-- playoffs 0 ER in 10.2 IP (just 5 hits)

 

Uehara in 2013 (73 appearances & 12.2 K/9, 1.09 ERA and an unheard of WHIP of 0.565!)

--playoffs 1 ER in 13.2 IP (ALCS MVP) Just 6 Hits, 0 BB and 16Ks (0.439 WHIP)

 

[Spudboy]

The post said he is injured. I was pointing out that he is back from injury now.

 

I wasn't trying to make an argument.

 

You were right: his numbers are low in part because he has been out hurt.

 

I had read very recently that he is still having lingering effects of the injury.

 

My overall point was simply that he HAS BEEN injured during his low output stretch.

 

He is without a doubt the best hitting Sox catcher. It's just not happening for him at the moment.

[Kimmi]

Was it a Pomeranz thing or a Vazquez thing or just me last night with the parade of trips to the mound? I didn't like it. I don't like over catching any more than I like over coaching. I think one of the reasons I like Leon is that it looks simpler to me. He puts a sign down and it just seems like the pitcher tends to throw the ball. Plus the fact that I see 0 difference in their overall abilities or future potential going forward. I don't need flashy just competent behind the plate.

 

I think that sometimes Vazquez is a little too busy behind the plate. Maybe trying to do too much? As far as the visits to the mound, I think that had something to do with there being a runner on 2nd base.

 

That said, IMO, our other pitchers need to take a page out of Sale's book. No thinking on the mound - let the catcher do that. Get the ball back, get the sign, and pitch.

[Kimmi]

Last 2 times Vazquez caught Kimbrel, Kimbrel has thrown 30 + Pitches. Something to keep an eye on. Maybe not comfortable with him.

 

In a very, very small sample, however, Kimbrel's numbers are better with Vazquez than they are with Leon.

[Kimmi]

From Matt Collins this morning:

 

Vazquez, of course, came up with a strong reputation on the defensive side of things. His glove was always going to carry him to and through the majors. For the most part, nothing this season has changed that. Over the last couple years the baseball community has started to realize the value of framing, and it is easily the most important part of catcher defense. There, Vazquez thrives. According to Baseball Prospectus’ caching metrics, he has been worth 3.5 runs just from framing pitches this season, which makes him the seventh-most valuable catcher in the league in this regard.

 

It’s not all about framing, though. While Vazquez clearly has talents in other areas of the defensive game. His arm is still strong even after undergoing Tommy John surgery a couple of years ago, and he has the athleticism required to block pitches behind the plate. There’s also his game-calling ability, which has been lauded by his pitching staff. With all of that being said, he has had some lapses this season. Mostly, they’ve involved throwing errors, but he’s also allowed some balls to pass him that could have been stopped. The good news is that it isn’t an indictment on his talent. Rather, the mistakes have seemingly resulted in him trying to do too much. It doesn’t make it any easier to swallow at the time of the errors, but it provides more hope that he’ll recover from these lapses.

 

In the end, Vazquez has taken a real step forward this year, even if his offense isn’t going to stay at this level all year. He deserves his current standing as the primary catcher.

[Kimmi]

And on Leon:

 

On the other side of things, his defensive reputation is ahead of how he’s actually performed behind the plate. Leon has actually been below-average in terms of framing this year, costing the team a little under a run in 2017. That doesn’t seem too bad, but it places him 50th among the 78 catchers who have caught at least one pitch this season. Additionally, he’s had some trouble blocking pitches, at least anecdotally. The numbers mark him as roughly average here, but there have been multiple instances in which he’s stabbed at the ball rather than putting his body in front of it and it’s caused the pitch to roll to the backstop.

[cp176]

I think that sometimes Vazquez is a little too busy behind the plate. Maybe trying to do too much? As far as the visits to the mound, I think that had something to do with there being a runner on 2nd base.

 

That said, IMO, our other pitchers need to take a page out of Sale's book. No thinking on the mound - let the catcher do that. Get the ball back, get the sign, and pitch.

 

I think that saying he might be a little to busy is really what I mean to say.

[cp176]

From Matt Collins this morning:

 

Vazquez, of course, came up with a strong reputation on the defensive side of things. His glove was always going to carry him to and through the majors. For the most part, nothing this season has changed that. Over the last couple years the baseball community has started to realize the value of framing, and it is easily the most important part of catcher defense. There, Vazquez thrives. According to Baseball Prospectus’ caching metrics, he has been worth 3.5 runs just from framing pitches this season, which makes him the seventh-most valuable catcher in the league in this regard.

 

It’s not all about framing, though. While Vazquez clearly has talents in other areas of the defensive game. His arm is still strong even after undergoing Tommy John surgery a couple of years ago, and he has the athleticism required to block pitches behind the plate. There’s also his game-calling ability, which has been lauded by his pitching staff. With all of that being said, he has had some lapses this season. Mostly, they’ve involved throwing errors, but he’s also allowed some balls to pass him that could have been stopped. The good news is that it isn’t an indictment on his talent. Rather, the mistakes have seemingly resulted in him trying to do too much. It doesn’t make it any easier to swallow at the time of the errors, but it provides more hope that he’ll recover from these lapses.

 

In the end, Vazquez has taken a real step forward this year, even if his offense isn’t going to stay at this level all year. He deserves his current standing as the primary catcher.

 

i certainly don't disagree with this take but why do I sometimes think that he is framing some pitches without needing to? Umpires can be swayed by any subtle movement of a catcher's mitt. On occasion, I have felt that he has moved pitches that were borderline strikes that wound up being called balls simply because of the movement. he can be a little too busy back there.

[Bellhorn04]

i certainly don't disagree with this take but why do I sometimes think that he is framing some pitches without needing to? Umpires can be swayed by any subtle movement of a catcher's mitt. On occasion, I have felt that he has moved pitches that were borderline strikes that wound up being called balls simply because of the movement. he can be a little too busy back there.

 

Personally it amazes me how much umps are influenced by pitch framing. Sometimes you'll see a pitch that's a good 3 inches off the plate pulled in by the catcher and called a strike.

[a700hitter]

Personally it amazes me how much umps are influenced by pitch framing. Sometimes you'll see a pitch that's a good 3 inches off the plate pulled in by the catcher and called a strike.

It is so obvious sometime that I wonder if they blink when the ball hits the catcher's glove.

[cp176]

Personally it amazes me how much umps are influenced by pitch framing. Sometimes you'll see a pitch that's a good 3 inches off the plate pulled in by the catcher and called a strike.

 

I agree for sure but it can work both ways. Being a little too cute on occasion can work against you.

[moonslav59]

I had read very recently that he is still having lingering effects of the injury.

 

My overall point was simply that he HAS BEEN injured during his low output stretch.

 

He is without a doubt the best hitting Sox catcher. It's just not happening for him at the moment.

 

I don't disagree, and like I said, I was not trying to start an argument.

 

I was just trying to show that he's back from missing time and playing.

 

I agree that he is clearly our best projected hitting catcher going forward.

 

I am, however, in no rush to call for him replacing Vaz or Leon, especially while he is still hampered by injury.

[moonslav59]

Kimmi,

 

I agree with your points, but I will say that I think Vaz has struggled to regain his defensive skills this year.

 

I'm glad his pitch framing is so good, but he's struggled with throwing and pitch blocking more than I expected.

[notin]

I don't disagree, and like I said, I was not trying to start an argument.

 

I was just trying to show that he's back from missing time and playing.

 

I agree that he is clearly our best projected hitting catcher going forward.

 

I am, however, in no rush to call for him replacing Vaz or Leon, especially while he is still hampered by injury.

 

Even with the emergence of Devers, I wouldn't mind seeing Swihart moved to third base. Vazquez can handle the catching duties and Swihart is athletic enough to likely handle the change. He has been injury prone a lot the last couple years and 3b is less taxing.

 

While the current team and contracts do allow for Swihart, Devers and Travis to all play their current positions, that would assume the Sox can unload or give up on Sandoval,which I wowould also like. But I have my doubts all three work out and, if and when the Sox need to make atrade, pprobably for a SP, Devers will be the first name other teams want. Swihart is probably the least attractive chip of the three due to his spotty heath track record.

[harmony]

I don't disagree, and like I said, I was not trying to start an argument.

 

I was just trying to show that he's back from missing time and playing.

 

I agree that he is clearly our best projected hitting catcher going forward.

 

I am, however, in no rush to call for him replacing Vaz or Leon, especially while he is still hampered by injury.

Steamer and FanGraphs Depth Chart project Blake Swihart with rest-of-season MLB wRC+ of 82 each.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13176&position=C

 

The ROS projections are in line with Swihart's preseason projections. ZiPS apparently has no ROS projection for Swihart.

 

ZiPS, Steamer and FanGraphs Depth Charts project Christian Vazquez with ROS wRC+ of 76, 80 and 78, and Sandy Leon with 73, 75 and 74.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9774&position=C

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5273&position=C

Edited June 8, 2017 by harmony

[moonslav59]

Even with the emergence of Devers, I wouldn't mind seeing Swihart moved to third base. Vazquez can handle the catching duties and Swihart is athletic enough to likely handle the change. He has been injury prone a lot the last couple years and 3b is less taxing.

 

While the current team and contracts do allow for Swihart, Devers and Travis to all play their current positions, that would assume the Sox can unload or give up on Sandoval,which I wowould also like. But I have my doubts all three work out and, if and when the Sox need to make atrade, pprobably for a SP, Devers will be the first name other teams want. Swihart is probably the least attractive chip of the three due to his spotty heath track record.

 

I could also see Swihart have a try at 1B once Moreland leaves. It looks more and more like HRam is going to be our DH only.

 

If Pablo could start hitting, maybe he could be moved to DH or 1B to make room for Devers and/or Swihart.

[mvp 78]

I could also see Swihart have a try at 1B once Moreland leaves. It looks more and more like HRam is going to be our DH only.

 

If Pablo could start hitting, maybe he could be moved to DH or 1B to make room for Devers and/or Swihart.

 

I'm not sure Swihart's bat has a high enough upside for 1B anymore.

[mvp 78]

Even with the emergence of Devers, I wouldn't mind seeing Swihart moved to third base. Vazquez can handle the catching duties and Swihart is athletic enough to likely handle the change. He has been injury prone a lot the last couple years and 3b is less taxing.

 

While the current team and contracts do allow for Swihart, Devers and Travis to all play their current positions, that would assume the Sox can unload or give up on Sandoval,which I wowould also like. But I have my doubts all three work out and, if and when the Sox need to make atrade, pprobably for a SP, Devers will be the first name other teams want. Swihart is probably the least attractive chip of the three due to his spotty heath track record.

 

Swihart's best shot is to stick at C. His bat can play there if his glove improves. He just needs to be given the opportunity to succeed there without the rug being pulled from under him again.

[mvp 78]

Of all the DD decisions the past two year, the move to LF for Swihart is the most curious to me.

[moonslav59]

Of all the DD decisions the past two year, the move to LF for Swihart is the most curious to me.

 

Under the circumstances, I thought it was logical.

[Kimmi]

Of all the DD decisions the past two year, the move to LF for Swihart is the most curious to me.

 

In two of their not so fine moments, the FO panicked, both with that move and with removing Swihart from the catching position so quickly.

[Emp9]

In two of their not so fine moments, the FO panicked, both with that move and with removing Swihart from the catching position so quickly.

 

I thought it was just a way to get his bat in the line-up. I don't think it was a panic move at all.

[Spudboy]

I thought it was just a way to get his bat in the line-up. I don't think it was a panic move at all.

 

That was how I saw it too.

 

If he had not f***ed up his foot / leg in the wall I doubt anyone would bitch about it.