Christian Vazquez

[Kimmi]

A few thoughts about our catchers:

 

1. I am a huge Vazquez fan and have always preferred a defense-oriented catcher over an offensive one, but Vazquez was called up too quickly at the beginning of the year. Or in other words, Swihart was not given a long enough look. I wouldn't be surprised if he is sent down.

 

2. As Bellhorn stated in another thread regarding Leon's offense, enjoy it while it lasts. This is not a knock on Leon, as I have been a Leon fan since he was acquired, but I'm not sure that he will hit any better than Vazquez is hitting now. That said, I would not want to lose him at this point.

 

3. Getting rid of Hanigan would still be a huge mistake, IMO.

[moonslav59]

A few thoughts about our catchers:

 

1. I am a huge Vazquez fan and have always preferred a defense-oriented catcher over an offensive one, but Vazquez was called up too quickly at the beginning of the year. Or in other words, Swihart was not given a long enough look. I wouldn't be surprised if he is sent down.

 

2. As Bellhorn stated in another thread regarding Leon's offense, enjoy it while it lasts. This is not a knock on Leon, as I have been a Leon fan since he was acquired, but I'm not sure that he will hit any better than Vazquez is hitting now. That said, I would not want to lose him at this point.

 

3. Getting rid of Hanigan would still be a huge mistake, IMO.

 

I think we end up trading Swihart, but since he's on the DL, it won't be happening soon.

 

That being said, I agree on keeping Hanigan.

[Spudboy]

A few thoughts about our catchers:

 

1. I am a huge Vazquez fan and have always preferred a defense-oriented catcher over an offensive one, but Vazquez was called up too quickly at the beginning of the year. Or in other words, Swihart was not given a long enough look. I wouldn't be surprised if he is sent down.

 

2. As Bellhorn stated in another thread regarding Leon's offense, enjoy it while it lasts. This is not a knock on Leon, as I have been a Leon fan since he was acquired, but I'm not sure that he will hit any better than Vazquez is hitting now. That said, I would not want to lose him at this point.

 

3. Getting rid of Hanigan would still be a huge mistake, IMO.

 

Nothing but truth in this post.

[bosoxmal]

Leon's in there tonight. Young lefty for the Rays. Who have Longoria, a couple of decent pitchers, and nothing else. Sox should not lose unless some hot shot shuts them out. Even the wise guy, Archer, has been that great lately.

[Spudboy]

If any "have" team can lose a series to a "have not" team, It's our Sox right now.

[southpaw777]

A few thoughts about our catchers:

 

1. I am a huge Vazquez fan and have always preferred a defense-oriented catcher over an offensive one, but Vazquez was called up too quickly at the beginning of the year. Or in other words, Swihart was not given a long enough look. I wouldn't be surprised if he is sent down.

 

2. As Bellhorn stated in another thread regarding Leon's offense, enjoy it while it lasts. This is not a knock on Leon, as I have been a Leon fan since he was acquired, but I'm not sure that he will hit any better than Vazquez is hitting now. That said, I would not want to lose him at this point.

 

3. Getting rid of Hanigan would still be a huge mistake, IMO.

 

A lot of moves by the sox were made out of necessity...betts up early, jbj, and bogey too...swihart was up way way too early and Vaz was rushed a bit because of Swiharts D...some work out good, some not as well...

Swihart will be fine as will Vaz.

I dont think leons offense will last, but it has obviously gotten better. Vaz got another hit last night. He just needs more reps. If they think AAA is the place for it, then send him down and let him play everyday so hes ready for a possible post season (fingers crossed).

Moving forward I wouldnt mind a Leon/Vaz team behind the plate...sorry, I still believe they will trade Swihart before the 2017 season.

[mvp 78]

I think Leon and Hanigan are interchangeable.

 

Either move Hanigan or send Leon back to Pawtucket. Vazquez should be up in Boston permanently.

[illinoisredsox]

I think Leon and Hanigan are interchangeable.

 

Either move Hanigan or send Leon back to Pawtucket. Vazquez should be up in Boston permanently.

 

Neither Hanigan nor Leon can be sent outright to Pawtucket. Both are out of options, so neither can be sent to RI without exposing them to waivers. Leon probably would not clear; Hanigan would but as a 5 year vet, he can refuse the assignment.

 

Vazquez may be the odd man out right now, if only from a roster management standpoint. Also, he does have the offensive side of the ball to work on.

[mvp 78]

Neither Hanigan nor Leon can be sent outright to Pawtucket. Both are out of options, so neither can be sent to RI without exposing them to waivers. Leon probably would not clear; Hanigan would but as a 5 year vet, he can refuse the assignment.

 

Vazquez may be the odd man out right now, if only from a roster management standpoint. Also, he does have the offensive side of the ball to work on.

 

Then I try to put Hanigan through waivers and see if he'll take the spot in Pawtucket, because I don't see him on this roster next year.

[Kimmi]

A lot of moves by the sox were made out of necessity...betts up early, jbj, and bogey too...swihart was up way way too early and Vaz was rushed a bit because of Swiharts D...some work out good, some not as well...

Swihart will be fine as will Vaz.

I dont think leons offense will last, but it has obviously gotten better. Vaz got another hit last night. He just needs more reps. If they think AAA is the place for it, then send him down and let him play everyday so hes ready for a possible post season (fingers crossed).

Moving forward I wouldnt mind a Leon/Vaz team behind the plate...sorry, I still believe they will trade Swihart before the 2017 season.

 

I agree that both Swihart and Vazquez will be fine. I also agree that Swihart is likely to be traded. IMO, other teams still value him highly, and he will be worth more to another team as a catcher (who can also play left field) than he is worth to us as a left fielder.

 

IMO, some of the moves made at the beginning of this year were not made out of necessity. Rather, they were made out of a 'sense of urgency', which is not the same thing.

[Kimmi]

Then I try to put Hanigan through waivers and see if he'll take the spot in Pawtucket, because I don't see him on this roster next year.

 

I am really starting to warm up to the idea of trading for Lucroy. At first, it didn't make much sense. But credit fellow BDC poster JoeB and one of the sports writers for convincing me otherwise.

 

The improvement that we can get from Lucroy offensively (and he is very good defensively also) in addition to adding a #3/4 pitcher will be greater than the improvement we can get from adding a top of the rotation pitcher, unless we could add someone like Kershaw, which isn't happening. Not to mention the cost would be more reasonable.

[User Name]

Lucroy is literally the most valuable trade chip for a rebuilding club in baseball right now. The cost would be extraordinary to upgrade a position we don't need to upgrade. I'd much rather they go after Jimmy Nelson.

[Kimmi]

Lucroy is literally the most valuable trade chip for a rebuilding club in baseball right now. The cost would be extraordinary to upgrade a position we don't need to upgrade. I'd much rather they go after Jimmy Nelson.

 

I have no idea what the cost would be, but I don't think it would be as high as obtaining pitching. And while we may not need an upgrade at catcher or offensively, if you can't upgrade the top of the rotation, it makes sense to upgrade the middle/bottom of the rotation and offense instead.

[moonslav59]

A lot of moves by the sox were made out of necessity...betts up early, jbj, and bogey too...swihart was up way way too early and Vaz was rushed a bit because of Swiharts D...some work out good, some not as well...

Swihart will be fine as will Vaz.

I dont think leons offense will last, but it has obviously gotten better. Vaz got another hit last night. He just needs more reps. If they think AAA is the place for it, then send him down and let him play everyday so hes ready for a possible post season (fingers crossed).

Moving forward I wouldnt mind a Leon/Vaz team behind the plate...sorry, I still believe they will trade Swihart before the 2017 season.

 

I'm not sure I agree that we rushed Betts. The kid was killing every level he moved up to from day one. Plus, we called him up in 2014 when we were already out of it, so what was the need "rush"? His .812 OPS in MLB those 2 months in 2014 is not evidence of being rushed.

 

On Leon, I wouldn't be so quick to say his offense has "obviously gotten better" based on just a tiny sample size of 35 PAs. I'm not saying he can't be improving. Of course, he can be. It's natural for players to slowly improve over time, especially at, before and around the age that Leon currently is (27).

 

Leon has been in professional baseball since age 18. That's 10 years! I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that suddenly, 10 years into his career, he suddenly found the magic potion. Sure, I'm fine with slower growth, and there are cases where players have seemingly vastly improved almost overnight without apparent PED use, but more times than not, what we are seeing from Leon recently, turns out to be no more than a "flash in the pan". The odds are Leon will return to numbers much closer to his career norms (.580 MLB OPS in 270 PAs/.654 minor league OPS).

 

One reason I am not a believer just yet, is that Leon had a .655 OPS at AAA this year in 115 PAs. This was nearly identical to his minor league career OPS, so one could argue he showed no signs of improvement prior to his call-up. However, I would argue he has shown improvement in recent years, but just not on the scale of these 35 PAs. Leon was first called up to AAA briefly in 2012 after a very lack-luster .614 OPS at the AA level in 510 PAs. Here are his AAA numbers since 2012:

 

2012 1.026 in 64 PAs

(2013: he was returned to A- and AA ball with a .542 OPS at AA)

2014: .692 in 193 PAs/ .447 in MLB (70 PAs with the NATs)

2015: .676 in 111 PAs/.439 in 128 PAs with BOS

2016: .655 in 130 PAs at Pawtucket

 

He's consistently been over his AA OPS every year at AAA, so I do see strong signs of improvement, but nothing massive. I think Leon projects at about .650-.675 in the bigs, and that may be generous.

 

Can he do much better? Yes, of course he can, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[moonslav59]

I am really starting to warm up to the idea of trading for Lucroy. At first, it didn't make much sense. But credit fellow BDC poster JoeB and one of the sports writers for convincing me otherwise.

 

The improvement that we can get from Lucroy offensively (and he is very good defensively also) in addition to adding a #3/4 pitcher will be greater than the improvement we can get from adding a top of the rotation pitcher, unless we could add someone like Kershaw, which isn't happening. Not to mention the cost would be more reasonable.

We have 4 catchers right now, and if Swihart wasn't on the DL, we'd be talking what to do with him. I do not see catcher as being even close to our highest need area. Unless Milwaukee will take Hanigan (with a prospect) to help offset Lucroy's contract, I doubt we'd even consider trading for him. We need pitching first, pitching second, pitching third, then maybe LF... not catching.

Plus, Lucroy will be very costly. Milwaukee will not want overpayed players in return (like Hanigan). I guess they may take Leon and prospects, but I still don't see the Sox looking at him for an offensive boost.

[Jasonbay44]

I just don't see how getting rid of Hanigan is a "Mistake" he offers nothing offensively or defensively that Vazquez/Leon don't and is older.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I just don't see how getting rid of Hanigan is a "Mistake" he offers nothing offensively or defensively that Vazquez/Leon don't and is older.

 

At worst, Hanigan provides depth at a position that is more difficult to fill than any other. If there's one thing to take away from what's transpired this season, it's that you can never have "too much" depth.

[Spudboy]

At worst, Hanigan provides depth at a position that is more difficult to fill than any other. If there's one thing to take away from what's transpired this season, it's that you can never have "too much" depth.

 

Amen to that.

[Jasonbay44]

At worst, Hanigan provides depth at a position that is more difficult to fill than any other. If there's one thing to take away from what's transpired this season, it's that you can never have "too much" depth.

So you want to hold onto three catchers, one of which who is turning 36, has been injury prone his whole career, has horrible failed his main job this season (to catch Wright) and has looked completely lost at the plate?

 

Vazquez has done a way better job at catching Wright and Leon won't clear waivers. So you want to lose Leon or send Vazquez to the minors?

 

This has nothing to do with Leon's absurdly hot bat, he will cool off, I just think Vazquez and Leon is a better combo at this point in their respective career.

[moonslav59]

Until this year, Hanigan was a pretty big plus on offense vs LHPs. With the amount of catchers going on the DL these days, even deep depth has value.

 

I'm a huge Vaz fan, and don't care as much about offense from the catching position as most here do, but I see no harm in sending Vaz to AAA to work on his offense, and hten see how things shake out.

 

Catchers are sometimes in high need at the deadline, so I'm all for trading one, if the price is right, but I'm no for getting rid of a catcher just to keep a sub .600 catcher on the 25 man roster. We need to keep as many catching options available for as long as possible. I still think Swihart will be our best choice blue chip trade piece this summer or winter, so having three catchers left over is just about right. What if Vaz takes another year to get his offense on track? Having Hanigan and Leon as our two catchers in 2017 may not look too sexy, but with Vaz at AAA in case one gets hurt, wouldn't be such a bad set up.

[Eddy Ballgame]

So you want to hold onto three catchers, one of which who is turning 36, has been injury prone his whole career, has horrible failed his main job this season (to catch Wright) and has looked completely lost at the plate?

 

Vazquez has done a way better job at catching Wright and Leon won't clear waivers. So you want to lose Leon or send Vazquez to the minors?

 

This has nothing to do with Leon's absurdly hot bat, he will cool off, I just think Vazquez and Leon is a better combo at this point in their respective career.

 

No. I would send Vasquez down. He missed an entire season. It wouldn't be the end of the world for him to go down and work on his hitting. I agree that it's possible Leon wouldn't clear waivers, but I wouldn't want to lose Hanigan, either.

[moonslav59]

We shouldn't over-react to Hanigan's poor offense in a small sample size.

 

He's never going to be a plus on offense, but he's normally better than what we've seen so far this year. Too many knee-jerk reactions can hurt a roster.

[Jasonbay44]

I don't really think its a knee-jerk reaction. He can't stay healthy and has failed miserably at his job this year as Wright's personal catcher. Plus he's turning 36.

[a700hitter]

He looks like he went over a cliff. There is no need to rush him back. let's see how he does on a rehab assignment and let hime stay there for te maximum period to delay the decision on the other 2 guys.

[moonslav59]

I don't really think its a knee-jerk reaction. He can't stay healthy and has failed miserably at his job this year as Wright's personal catcher. Plus he's turning 36.

 

Most catchers have horrible times catching knucklers. I can't see holding that against him. Now that Leon seems to have the ability to catch Wright, we wouldn't need Hanigan to catch him. Hanigan had good numbers catching other Sox starters last year, and not bad this year when compared head-to-head this year (other than Wright).

 

I'm not trying to say hanigan is great or some sort of high value asset, but catchers get hurt all the time, and keeping catcher depth is a value, especially when you hold the view that Swihart will probably be traded. If Swihart is traded, then are you kay with Vaz-Leon then who? Butler?

 

I'm just saying, it won't hurt to send Vaz down for a while until things shake out?

[southpaw777]

Vaz is still getting his game back, and Leon hitting the laces off the ball while providing solid D behind the plate. Couple that with Hanny back from the DL and it probably became the plan when Leons bat kept producing. Its a smart move. Hardly knee-jerk Imho.

Vaz still needs to fully get back to his elite D. Even though hes better than most at 80-90%, hes still not fully back yet. If Hanny comes back strong who knows, maybe he becomes a teade chip at the deadline for a team in need. Or even a good offer for Leon...Still about 4 weeks left. A lot can happen.

Vaz will be back, and I really like a Vaz/Leon combo. Two young backstops with ++ D, and maybe even a little more offense than some expected. Eventually from both.

This is the right move for right now. It benefits all parties involved.

[moonslav59]

Vaz is still getting his game back, and Leon hitting the laces off the ball while providing solid D behind the plate. Couple that with Hanny back from the DL and it probably became the plan when Leons bat kept producing. Its a smart move. Hardly knee-jerk Imho.

Vaz still needs to fully get back to his elite D. Even though hes better than most at 80-90%, hes still not fully back yet. If Hanny comes back strong who knows, maybe he becomes a teade chip at the deadline for a team in need. Or even a good offer for Leon...Still about 4 weeks left. A lot can happen.

Vaz will be back, and I really like a Vaz/Leon combo. Two young backstops with ++ D, and maybe even a little more offense than some expected. Eventually from both.

This is the right move for right now. It benefits all parties involved.

 

I totally agree.

Vaz will get to play more often at AAA.

Vaz may find his groove at the plate.

Hanigan should not be judged on such a small sample size that included trying to catch a freaky knuckler.

[dustcover]

So what's going on with Vasquez? The Sox front office go out and sign a recently released catcher off waivers and then make him the backup catcher to Leon after putting Hannigan on the 15 day DL. So how come they leave Vasquez languishing in Pawtucket, when they could have brought him up for 15 days while Hannigan recuperates? I don't get it. Any thoughts?

[illinoisredsox]

Simple. They want him playing every day. Right now, Leon is playing 4-5 times a week which means the backup plays 1-2. Vazquez will be a September call-up.

[moonslav59]

Here's what Farrell said about the Catcher situation...

 

 

On Holaday ...

 

"He is a good handler of pitchers and game calling has been a strong suit of his and has some strength in the bat," Farrell said. "A couple guys have had him as a teammate and have good reports on him."

 

On Vazquez...

 

"Defensively he is solid; offensively he still has work to be done. The adjustments and settling in, he's still working to maintain that. He's been inconsistent at times," Farrell said. "The move of Holaday is also to create additional depth."