Referendum on John Farrell

[a700hitter]

Nah, we were a great road team, especially at the end of the year. And we won 2 out of 3 in Cleveland this year.

 

Case closed.

HFA is an advantage. There is nothing disproving that...nothing.

[mvp 78]

HFA is an advantage. There is nothing disproving that...nothing.

 

It IS an advantage. There is nothing from the ALDS that shows it would have helped the Sox win the series though.

[Spudboy]

It IS an advantage. There is nothing from the ALDS that shows it would have helped the Sox win the series though.

 

Yup. Cleveland pitching out performed both Sox pitching and hitting.

 

Them's the breaks!

[Bellhorn04]

it wasn't comparable at all. In 2003, Pedro had performed to plan-- 7 solid inning with a lead and 100 pitches. The formula all season long was to go to the pen to lock it down. Pedro had taken his congratulations. That was much different from 2004 where Pedro had entered the 6th inning with only 88 pitches and the issue was whether he stayed in one batter too long. The call in 2003 was much easier. Pedro clearly should not have been sent to the mound in the 8 th inning. That had bee the winning strategy during the season. You are just perpetuating the argument with this and sending it into a circle jerk.

 

Ah s***, it started as a simple observation that I thought was of interest. You're the one twisting and dragging it. You really act like a lawyer sometimes.

[Dojji]

you realize 2 teams play a game, yes?.

 

I was beginning to wonder if you realized that. You're focusing on everything the Sox did "wrong" with no regard of what the Guardians may have done right.

[S5Dewey]

I was beginning to wonder if you realized that. You're focusing on everything the Sox did "wrong" with no regard of what the Guardians may have done right.

 

Ahhh yes. One of my pet gripes.

 

It does seem like some people forget that two teams are playing and just because one of them plays well it doesn't mean that the other team "sucks".

 

I've always wondered why it is that when the Sox only score a run or two in a game it's because "these guys can't hit", but when the other team only scores a run or two it's because our pitchers had a good outing.

 

or

 

When we score a lot of runs it's because the Sox have such great hitters, but when the other team scores a bunch of runs it's because our pitchers sucked.

 

Maybe it's human nature, but some people seem to want to find fault when things go badly without considering the outside circumstances that may have caused it.

 

Just random ramblings....

[Maxbialystock]

Since this HFA discussion is ultimately about Farrell, these thoughts

 

1. Yes, HFA is advantageous. No one doubts that. However, so far in all postseason games it's about even-steven on home vs. visitor winning, plus someone said the long-term edge is 55-45 in favor of the home team--not a real big edge. Plus the Sox took 2 of 3 in Cleveland in the regular season, 4 of 6 overall and had almost the best road record in MLB. Yes, Cleveland did thrive at home this year, but not against the Sox.

 

2. The real issue is whether Farrell even cared about HFA. The critics say, "nope, he gave everyone off the final week when the Sox lost 5 of 6 after winning 11 in a row. Nobody cared, least of all Farrell, who only wanted to rest his guys, let Ortiz celebrate, etc." The critics are dead wrong. For one thing, the Sox didn't clinch until Sep 28, the second game of the final six, which Kimbrel lost by walking 4 guys. This was totally unexpected because the bullpen was terrific in September. But there is no way, no how a rationale can be made the Sox weren't trying that night. They lost, but they also won the ALE when Toronto lost. The next night was the one game of the final six when Farrell rested some guys and started Owens instead of whoever. Anyway, the Sox lost their 3d straight at Yankee Stadium.

 

3. The final series at Fenway was against the Jays who had everything to win/lose in that series. The evidence that Farrell also wanted to win is unassailable. Thus the Sox won the first game, 5-3, with Porcello on the mound. The Sox lost the next two, both very close, despite starting ERod and Price. Kimbrel, our $9M closer, gave up the winning run in the first game, and in the final game of the season, despite Price and using the regular lineup (as was true of the first two games), the Sox lost 2-1 when Ziegler gave up the winning run in the 8th. Some complain Price should have stayed in longer than 5 innings, but its doubtful he would have gone beyond the 7th. Moreover, carping keep forgetting that the Sox scored just 1 run in that game--the same number Price had given up.

 

4. That final week needs to be seen in context. In the final 1/3 (Aug-Oct) the Sox played 2/3 of their games on the road and had very few days off. Farrell could have justified giving the key players more than that one rest day (game 3 at Yankee stadium), but stayed with his regulars for the 5 of the final 6 games because, quite obviously, he wanted the HFA too.

 

5. Kimmi was one of the few who argued rest was the right thing for that final week. In retrospect, she may have been right. Farrell should have rested his guys more than he did. Chances are very good they were tired.

 

6. However, I think the real problem was that Porcello and Price simply weren't up to the postseason challenge.

[Bellhorn04]

Ahhh yes. One of my pet gripes.

 

It does seem like some people forget that two teams are playing and just because one of them plays well it doesn't mean that the other team "sucks".

 

I've always wondered why it is that when the Sox only score a run or two in a game it's because "these guys can't hit", but when the other team only scores a run or two it's because our pitchers had a good outing.

 

or

 

When we score a lot of runs it's because the Sox have such great hitters, but when the other team scores a bunch of runs it's because our pitchers sucked.

 

Maybe it's human nature, but some people seem to want to find fault when things go badly without considering the outside circumstances that may have caused it.

 

Just random ramblings....

 

Some people like to keep things simple for themselves. If they can chalk up this loss to one thing, like "Farrell blowing HFA", it saves them from having to think about it too much. It's also the whole principle of scapegoating.

[sk7326]

I was beginning to wonder if you realized that. You're focusing on everything the Sox did "wrong" with no regard of what the Guardians may have done right.

 

It's baseball - Guardians were better. Price was awful - and in the inning which blew up, one of the ball's was hard hit, and the rest were perfect pitches that ended up in a place without fielders.

 

Home field is an edge, but a small one - one which the Red Sox have transcended many many many times. After all, since the playoff seeding began (1998) - teams with HFA have gone 69-65 (.515). Given that in most cases the HFA went to the better team, this casts significant doubt over the size of the HFA in and of itself.

 

It is hard to divine meaning from any of these series aside from the fact that a team won and a team lost and that is was (usually) fun to watch.

[a700hitter]

Since this HFA discussion is ultimately about Farrell, these thoughts

 

1. Yes, HFA is advantageous. No one doubts that. However, so far in all postseason games it's about even-steven on home vs. visitor winning, plus someone said the long-term edge is 55-45 in favor of the home team--not a real big edge. Plus the Sox took 2 of 3 in Cleveland in the regular season, 4 of 6 overall and had almost the best road record in MLB. Yes, Cleveland did thrive at home this year, but not against the Sox.

 

2. The real issue is whether Farrell even cared about HFA. The critics say, "nope, he gave everyone off the final week when the Sox lost 5 of 6 after winning 11 in a row. Nobody cared, least of all Farrell, who only wanted to rest his guys, let Ortiz celebrate, etc." The critics are dead wrong. For one thing, the Sox didn't clinch until Sep 28, the second game of the final six, which Kimbrel lost by walking 4 guys. This was totally unexpected because the bullpen was terrific in September. But there is no way, no how a rationale can be made the Sox weren't trying that night. They lost, but they also won the ALE when Toronto lost. The next night was the one game of the final six when Farrell rested some guys and started Owens instead of whoever. Anyway, the Sox lost their 3d straight at Yankee Stadium.

 

3. The final series at Fenway was against the Jays who had everything to win/lose in that series. The evidence that Farrell also wanted to win is unassailable. Thus the Sox won the first game, 5-3, with Porcello on the mound. The Sox lost the next two, both very close, despite starting ERod and Price. Kimbrel, our $9M closer, gave up the winning run in the first game, and in the final game of the season, despite Price and using the regular lineup (as was true of the first two games), the Sox lost 2-1 when Ziegler gave up the winning run in the 8th. Some complain Price should have stayed in longer than 5 innings, but its doubtful he would have gone beyond the 7th. Moreover, carping keep forgetting that the Sox scored just 1 run in that game--the same number Price had given up.

 

4. That final week needs to be seen in context. In the final 1/3 (Aug-Oct) the Sox played 2/3 of their games on the road and had very few days off. Farrell could have justified giving the key players more than that one rest day (game 3 at Yankee stadium), but stayed with his regulars for the 5 of the final 6 games because, quite obviously, he wanted the HFA too.

 

5. Kimmi was one of the few who argued rest was the right thing for that final week. In retrospect, she may have been right. Farrell should have rested his guys more than he did. Chances are very good they were tired.

 

6. However, I think the real problem was that Porcello and Price simply weren't up to the postseason challenge.

Blah blah blah blah blah we didn't get HFA and we lost as the odds dictated.

[Kimmi]

If Tony Clark's double doesn't hop into the stands it might have ended up differently. I do remember Wakefield being put in. I thought he was.

 

Clark's double hopping over the fence is a prime example of the randomness that often overtakes skill in close games and short series. As you said, if not for the favorable bounce for us, it might have ended up differently.

[Kimmi]

Ooh, funny - though the strawmen are strong here:

 

1. Lineup doesn't matter - nobody said that, but that the differences are small, and from a player psychology perspective, some guys care and some don't - and you try to accomodate the former and hopefully have enough of the latter to make it possible. Getting the right players on the field trumps exactly where they hit. You don't want Betts batting 9th, but within reason it's not a big deal.

 

2. Home field doesn't matter - It does help, but historically it has not been some sort of iron lock the way it is in the NBA. (or the NFL if they did best of 7s) Occasionally you get a team to sweep home games in the postseason (like the 2004 Red Sox), but it is extremely rare. Instead, teams win some, teams lose some. We know World Series teams have won exactly half of the Game 7s since 1946. Home teams lost the first five games of the 1996 World Series and went 1-4 in the 1986 World Series. What sucks is that this is baseball - good teams have 2-3 or 0-3 stretches all the time, usually against weaker competition than the playoffs. You build a team for the ballpark - but even then the results are still not much more than 6 out of 10, which is awesome, but can be scuttled in a short series very easily. After all, Toronto cut through a home field disadvantage with almost no difficulty.

 

3. Managers matter - and using the bullpen is the one tactical thing which does have value. At the same time, the players still have to perform. But in general, most of a manager's work does not happen during those 2.5 to 3.5 (or in the case of Sox-Yankees, 5.5) hours they are sitting in the dugout.

 

You, sir, are still my hero.

[Dojji]

Blah blah blah blah blah we didn't get HFA and we lost as the odds dictated.

 

 

You would be doing yourself a disservice if that's all you said in response to Maxbialystock's EXCELLENT and highly thoughtful post.

[a700hitter]

You would be doing yourself a disservice if that's all you said in response to Maxbialystock's EXCELLENT and highly thoughtful post.

you may have the honor.

[Slasher9]

Since this HFA discussion is ultimately about Farrell, these thoughts

 

1. Yes, HFA is advantageous. No one doubts that. However, so far in all postseason games it's about even-steven on home vs. visitor winning, plus someone said the long-term edge is 55-45 in favor of the home team--not a real big edge. Plus the Sox took 2 of 3 in Cleveland in the regular season, 4 of 6 overall and had almost the best road record in MLB. Yes, Cleveland did thrive at home this year, but not against the Sox.

 

2. The real issue is whether Farrell even cared about HFA. The critics say, "nope, he gave everyone off the final week when the Sox lost 5 of 6 after winning 11 in a row. Nobody cared, least of all Farrell, who only wanted to rest his guys, let Ortiz celebrate, etc." The critics are dead wrong. For one thing, the Sox didn't clinch until Sep 28, the second game of the final six, which Kimbrel lost by walking 4 guys. This was totally unexpected because the bullpen was terrific in September. But there is no way, no how a rationale can be made the Sox weren't trying that night. They lost, but they also won the ALE when Toronto lost. The next night was the one game of the final six when Farrell rested some guys and started Owens instead of whoever. Anyway, the Sox lost their 3d straight at Yankee Stadium.

 

3. The final series at Fenway was against the Jays who had everything to win/lose in that series. The evidence that Farrell also wanted to win is unassailable. Thus the Sox won the first game, 5-3, with Porcello on the mound. The Sox lost the next two, both very close, despite starting ERod and Price. Kimbrel, our $9M closer, gave up the winning run in the first game, and in the final game of the season, despite Price and using the regular lineup (as was true of the first two games), the Sox lost 2-1 when Ziegler gave up the winning run in the 8th. Some complain Price should have stayed in longer than 5 innings, but its doubtful he would have gone beyond the 7th. Moreover, carping keep forgetting that the Sox scored just 1 run in that game--the same number Price had given up.

 

4. That final week needs to be seen in context. In the final 1/3 (Aug-Oct) the Sox played 2/3 of their games on the road and had very few days off. Farrell could have justified giving the key players more than that one rest day (game 3 at Yankee stadium), but stayed with his regulars for the 5 of the final 6 games because, quite obviously, he wanted the HFA too.

 

5. Kimmi was one of the few who argued rest was the right thing for that final week. In retrospect, she may have been right. Farrell should have rested his guys more than he did. Chances are very good they were tired.

 

6. However, I think the real problem was that Porcello and Price simply weren't up to the postseason challenge.

 

you need to add #7.

7. David Ortiz Retirement Tour. this "celebration" took it's greatest emotional and physical toll the final week of the season. the Focus of the players and FO was not on the team and winning a World Series. instead the Focus of the players, FO, and fanbase was on one man. this would be my #1 reason why the Red Sox limped into the Postseason and were swept out.....

[Bellhorn04]

you need to add #7.

7. David Ortiz Retirement Tour. this "celebration" took it's greatest emotional and physical toll the final week of the season. the Focus of the players and FO was not on the team and winning a World Series. instead the Focus of the players, FO, and fanbase was on one man. this would be my #1 reason why the Red Sox limped into the Postseason and were swept out.....

 

So how do you explain them winning 11 in a row and winning the division comfortably, which truthfully very few of us expected going into September? Were they distracted then or not distracted then? Why did the distraction only kick in after that?

 

Slash, if they had played well against Cleveland and won, the narrative would be about how excited the team was about trying to win another ring for Papi and what a great motivator that was.

[mvp 78]

you need to add #7.

7. David Ortiz Retirement Tour. this "celebration" took it's greatest emotional and physical toll the final week of the season. the Focus of the players and FO was not on the team and winning a World Series. instead the Focus of the players, FO, and fanbase was on one man. this would be my #1 reason why the Red Sox limped into the Postseason and were swept out.....

 

Also add a #8: Farrell's relationship with Jessica Moran. This caused a lot of stress on the clubhouse and it finally caught up with them in the postseason.

[Slasher9]

So how do you explain them winning 11 in a row and winning the division comfortably, which truthfully very few of us expected going into September? Were they distracted then or not distracted then? Why did the distraction only kick in after that?

 

Slash, if they had played well against Cleveland and won, the narrative would be about how excited the team was about trying to win another ring for Papi and what a great motivator that was.

 

the first and second week of september wasnt nearly as emotional. if you guys didnt see the difference the last week of the season for yourselves nothing i will type here will change your mind. the media coverage, the commercials, the instagram/social media postings, the ceremonies, the patches on the jerseys, the interviews, the hour long specials.

[Slasher9]

Also add a #8: Farrell's relationship with Jessica Moran. This caused a lot of stress on the clubhouse and it finally caught up with them in the postseason.

 

that's dumb.

[mvp 78]

that's dumb.

 

Makes as much sense as your theory.

[mvp 78]

That Jessica Moran story just took such an emotional and physical toll on this ball club.

[mvp 78]

Instead of the focus being on the game, it was on this off field nonsense.

[illinoisredsox]

I heard that in an effort to help Moncada beat his allergy to curve balls, they sacrificed a chicken. Then, to help them forget that awful sight, somebody brought in some sort of barley-hops based magic potion and had everyone drink it.

[sk7326]

you need to add #7.

7. David Ortiz Retirement Tour. this "celebration" took it's greatest emotional and physical toll the final week of the season. the Focus of the players and FO was not on the team and winning a World Series. instead the Focus of the players, FO, and fanbase was on one man. this would be my #1 reason why the Red Sox limped into the Postseason and were swept out.....

 

They lost because Cleveland's starting pitching + Andrew Miller was better than Boston's starting pitching ... that's it. This is something that could have occurred any weekend against any team because baseball is a funny game. It's not like some of the bloops and bleeders in that 2nd inning in Game 2 were anything Price could have done anything about - that's baseball.

[Slasher9]

Instead of the focus being on the game, it was on this off field nonsense.

 

did you watch any of the games the last week of the season?

[Slasher9]

They lost because Cleveland's starting pitching + Andrew Miller was better than Boston's starting pitching ... that's it. This is something that could have occurred any weekend against any team because baseball is a funny game. It's not like some of the bloops and bleeders in that 2nd inning in Game 2 were anything Price could have done anything about - that's baseball.

 

final week of season. emotional toll.

[sk7326]

final week of season. emotional toll.

 

Final week of the season where they entered the week essentially clinching a tie for the division? There is not one team of the 30 in their position who would not have done the same thing ... play the regulars a little bit, give the starters some burn but rotate through a lot of guys. Indeed the Guardians did the same thing - that they ended up #2 was largely dumb luck.

[Spudboy]

They were beaten by a team that out played them.

[mvp 78]

did you watch any of the games the last week of the season?

 

Yes, they looked exhausted from worrying about Jessica Moran for a whole season. It really wore them down.

[mvp 78]

The Yanks went 8-4 the final two weeks of 2014 when dealing with the emotional and physical toll of the Jeter retirement tour. WHY DID SELFISH JETER HAVE TO MAKE IT ALL ABOUT HIMSELF???