Referendum on John Farrell

[Jack Flap]

I love the postseason generally, but not so much the part where we apply all kinds of mystical significance and storylines fraught with magical thinking to sample sizes of 2, 3, 5, etc. games.

[illinoisredsox]

How many times did you see Francona as Red Sox manager pull someone in the fifth inning when they were WINNING? Give me a break. He's not a genius but he made a brilliant gusty move and deserves credit for it. That doesnt change the fact that he literally slept through games as a Sox manager. You are capable of considering two opposing ideas in your brain, right?

 

And you, seemingly, are still incapable of differentiating between managing the marathon and managing the sprint.

[georom4]

Not one person read the Buckley article? Talk about head in the sand. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/steve_buckley/2016/10/buckley_this_hangover_from_big_papi_s_party_is_no_fun_red

 

Here it is - it's out there and more than a few people think JF has lost focus during the last week's "victory lap". Also, I am looking forward to revisiting this thread when the Sox crush the Guardians at home and discussing the blase attitude of some here re home field advantage....but off to another thread to talk sox about why Clay is starting next...

[Kimmi]

Nonsense. That last series against the Jays, it was regular lineups. They lost 2 out of 3, all close games, to a playoff team. There's no indication they weren't trying to win those games.

 

Thank you for being a voice of reason.

[Bellhorn04]

Not one person read the Buckley article? Talk about head in the sand. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/steve_buckley/2016/10/buckley_this_hangover_from_big_papi_s_party_is_no_fun_red

 

Here it is - it's out there and more than a few people think JF has lost focus during the last week's "victory lap". Also, I am looking forward to revisiting this thread when the Sox crush the Guardians at home and discussing the blase attitude of some here re home field advantage....but off to another thread to talk sox about why Clay is starting next...

 

Christ, the Big Papi party went on all season, and look at the season he had, and we won the division.

 

Buckley is a sportswriter and these guys feast on negativity, it's part of the job description. Think for yourself.

[Kimmi]

Agreed. Also let's give some goddamn credit to the Guardians! How about recognizing the fact that the other team played well? Why is that so hard for some fans?

 

Sometimes you just lose to a hotter team. Sometimes it isn't your year. This would seem to not be our year. Oh well. The team placed well in the regular season, we're going to have a division pennant to display if nothing else, and we don't have too many of those over our very long history. That's a hell of a lot better than last place. Farrell did his job, he's OK. Not great, not terrible, OK. Good enough to be our manager until his next extension at any rate.

 

The only thing all year you could really fry JF for is the Wright injury, and if any of you really want to seriously try to tell me that a knuckleballer is going to be the big difference in postseason ball I have some wetland to sell you in New Mexico. Besides, Wright was already trending down a bit after his gargantuan start to the season, and odds are Wright wouldn't even have pitched yet in the series if healthy. We were always gonna roll the dice with Porcello and Price in the first 2 games, and it happens that they got beat by a good team. These things happen, and assigning "blame" when they do is a silly and petty thing to do.

 

This is not the Grady Little story. We rolled our best out there, and our best didn't execute. Simply put, we've been beaten by the better team each of the last 2 games. That has to be OK. It has to be allowable that a better team beats you in the playoffs. That has to be a thing that we are capable of accepting.

 

1. Yes on giving credit to the Guardians. They happen to be a pretty good team. I don't think they're a better team, but they have certainly played better than the Sox in the first two games.

 

2. The Sox aren't dead yet. It may still be our year.

 

3. Farrell does not deserve the blame for Wright's injury.

[Kimmi]

That said I do wish we still had Tito. Not because Farrell's so bad, but because the reason we fired him was utter BS. We fired Francona because the ownership group was trying to live in denial that the good times of the 2007 core were winding down. The 2011 team fell apart for reasons that had rather little to do with the manager, but the media got hold of some clubhouse nonsense that didn't actually matter and the ownership decided they could keep the money train rolling by pretending the whole thing was Tito's fault rather than our own complete inability to develop a homegrown starting pitcher of any reasonable quality or skill. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I enjoyed the rude awakening they got in 2012 after he was gone when the team went from "flawed but very competitive" to "ultimate stankteam."

 

Good post.

[Maxbialystock]

Not one person read the Buckley article? Talk about head in the sand. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/steve_buckley/2016/10/buckley_this_hangover_from_big_papi_s_party_is_no_fun_red

 

Here it is - it's out there and more than a few people think JF has lost focus during the last week's "victory lap". Also, I am looking forward to revisiting this thread when the Sox crush the Guardians at home and discussing the blase attitude of some here re home field advantage....but off to another thread to talk sox about why Clay is starting next...

 

OK. I read the article. It's asinine, pure and simple. At least he recognizes that Porcello and Price stank it up, but then he wanders off into these fascinating theories about how/why Farrell didn't get the guys psyched up--too much celebrating, the story goes, except that we've already read that from several contributors to talksox, so my guess is that Buckley basically plagiarized the whole article. I was particularly fascinated by the statement that the Sox had simply stopped hitting in the playoffs. If so, it was a one game stoppage because the Sox scored 4 runs in game one which would have been enough to win 6 of the 11 games in the 11 game hitting streak. But it wasn't enough because of Porcello.

 

Nobody says home field advantage wouldn't be nice, but what some of us are pointing out is that this year the Sox have not been that great at Fenway, where they won just 1 more game than they did on the road. And, in case anyone's interested, the Sox took 2 of 3 at Cleveland and 2 of 3 at Fenway. Again, where is this big difference folks are clamoring about?

 

I say again for the umpteenth time, the huge difference in the first two games in the playoffs was the starting pitching. We had the edge in game 1, but Porcello decided he was the set up man for the home run derby and not pitching the most important game--thus far--of his career. The Guardians had the edge in game 2 because Kluber had good stuff and good command, whereas Price only had not-so-good excuses for doing what he as always done in the postseason.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Maxbialystock

[Kimmi]

Not one person read the Buckley article? Talk about head in the sand. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/steve_buckley/2016/10/buckley_this_hangover_from_big_papi_s_party_is_no_fun_red

 

Here it is - it's out there and more than a few people think JF has lost focus during the last week's "victory lap". Also, I am looking forward to revisiting this thread when the Sox crush the Guardians at home and discussing the blase attitude of some here re home field advantage....but off to another thread to talk sox about why Clay is starting next...

 

So why do you think that the Jays are up 2-0 over the Rangers if home field advantage is so important.

[oldtimer]

especially when you haven't had a hit since the sixth inning.

 

Francona's stated that he would do everything he could to compete in the winnable games, referring of course to the games with the Sox. Let the future take care of itself. Showalter didn't do that, leaving his best reliever sitting when he still had a chance to win. He is rightly being criticized for that lack of action.

[Dojji]

The flaw in your post, Kimmi, is in its 5th word. There is not a lot of "think" coming out of that quarter at the moment. There's not enough room for "think" among the forces already crowding that particular skull, foremost among them are "rage" "froth" "react" "seethe" and "grope frantically around the Internet for the one loon a major newspaper is stupid enough to hire and publish that somewhat agrees with me."

 

There's a reason I'm usually not to be found on the boards when things start drifting downhill. Posts like the one you're rebutting, based on nothing but reactionary anger and an appalling lack of reasoning skills, are a large part of why I take a break in those times.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Dojji

[Dojji]

I still say it's an overdramatization to try to pass that off as the reason the Orioles lost that game. It's an exercise in making a mountain out of a medium-sized hill -- there's something to it, but not as much as you're making it out to be. The Orioles had plenty of opportunities to win that game, or secure their lead, prior to the Britton decision and did not do so.

 

Besides, if Showalter had made the "right" call, Britton would still not have been a factor by the 11th inning, he would have come out of the bullpen in the bottom of the 9th, exactly like a lot of teams do with their closer when tied on the road, and Ubaldo Jimenez probably still pitches the bottom of the 11th, or if not, the bottom of the 12th, since he seems to have been the designated longman. There's nothing Showalter could have done that wouldn't have eventually meant exactly that situation would come up (Jimenez on the mound against TOR's best hitters I mean) if the game went on long enough without Baltimore hitters breaking through..

 

I get that not using him right then was a mistake, especially from the perspective of that snapshot in time right before Encarnacion hit the home run, but pretending that it cost the team the game is just a little bit over the top.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Dojji

[SoxHop]

I didn't think the Sox would be in first place in the ALE at the end of the regular season, I thought they were going to be behind Toronto. I thought they had a chance, but I think no team has a better than %50 chance of doing so.

 

This season has been incredible fun. The playoffs are a crap shoot.

 

So, there is no way this season could end badly in my mind.

[S5Dewey]

I didn't think the Sox would be in first place in the ALE at the end of the regular season, I thought they were going to be behind Toronto. I thought they had a chance, but I think no team has a better than %50 chance of doing so.

 

This season has been incredible fun. The playoffs are a crap shoot.

 

So, there is no way this season could end badly in my mind.

 

At last, a voice of reason. I thought the Sox would win maybe 90 games, and I'd be happy if they got a WC spot. Instead they again "went from worst to first" with 93 wins. When I see all the youth on this team I see them as a work in progress.

 

If I think the season ends badly if the Sox don't win the WS it's only a reflection of how I upped my expectations late in the year. Win or lose, it's been a great ride, and a Hell of a lot more entertaining than 2014 & 2015.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Pessimism? Are you in a coma? Also, who appointed you the thread police? Stick this title up your ass - maybe it will loosen it up a little and you can breathe better asshat...

 

There was a thread entirely about John Farrell and our various opinions of him at the TOP of the page when you started yours. You did not start a baseball thread meant to spark impassioned discussion about an interesting topic. You started a new thread to bash John Farrell. If you wanted to do that, you could have done it in the John Farrell thread. If we had a new thread each time someone wanted to complain about whatever the manager of the Sox at the time does or says, we'd need an entirely separate site to hold all of the data.

[Dojji]

To put the same thing another way -- as I see it the only difference between Jimenez in the wild card game, and Leskainc and Wakefield in game 5 of the 2004 ALCS, is that Leskanic and Wakefield came through long enough for the Red Sox to scratch across a run

[jacksonianmarch]

There is one silver lining. If the sox got home field and lost the first two, then going back to Cleveland would be a death sentence

[Youk Of The Nation]

There is one silver lining. If the sox got home field and lost the first two, then going back to Cleveland would be a death sentence

 

Your way of looking on the bright side for us never fails to make me like you. Wait...no, my mistake. What I meant to say was, it never fails to make me hate you with a passion that burns brighter and hotter than the combined cores of a trillion suns.

[Kimmi]

The flaw in your post, Kimmi, is in its 5th word. There is not a lot of "think" coming out of that quarter at the moment. There's not enough room for "think" among the forces already crowding that particular skull, foremost among them are "rage" "froth" "react" "seethe" and "grope frantically around the Internet for the one loon a major newspaper is stupid enough to hire and publish that somewhat agrees with me."

 

There's a reason I'm usually not to be found on the boards when things start drifting downhill. Posts like the one you're rebutting, based on nothing but reactionary anger and an appalling lack of reasoning skills, are a large part of why I take a break in those times.

 

I know what you mean about not coming around when things are going bad. It's enough to make me want to stay away too. That said, I feel compelled to come here to defend my team. I can't let people get away with some of the crap they post.

[Kimmi]

I still say it's an overdramatization to try to pass that off as the reason the Orioles lost that game. It's an exercise in making a mountain out of a medium-sized hill -- there's something to it, but not as much as you're making it out to be. The Orioles had plenty of opportunities to win that game, or secure their lead, prior to the Britton decision and did not do so.

 

Besides, if Showalter had made the "right" call, Britton would still not have been a factor by the 11th inning, he would have come out of the bullpen in the bottom of the 9th, exactly like a lot of teams do with their closer when tied on the road, and Ubaldo Jimenez probably still pitches the bottom of the 11th, or if not, the bottom of the 12th, since he seems to have been the designated longman. There's nothing Showalter could have done that wouldn't have eventually meant exactly that situation would come up (Jimenez on the mound against TOR's best hitters I mean) if the game went on long enough without Baltimore hitters breaking through..

 

I get that not using him right then was a mistake, especially from the perspective of that snapshot in time right before Encarnacion hit the home run, but pretending that it cost the team the game is just a little bit over the top.

 

Dojji is on a roll! I agree 100%.

[Kimmi]

I didn't think the Sox would be in first place in the ALE at the end of the regular season, I thought they were going to be behind Toronto. I thought they had a chance, but I think no team has a better than %50 chance of doing so.

 

This season has been incredible fun. The playoffs are a crap shoot.

 

So, there is no way this season could end badly in my mind.

 

I also thought the Jays would win the division and the Sox win the first wildcard. I will be very disappointed if the Sox are eliminated, but I can't call this season a failure. The goal is to make it to the playoffs, then take your chances in the crap shoot of the postseason. The Sox won the division and gave themselves a real chance at another ring. It's all good.

[Kimmi]

Your way of looking on the bright side for us never fails to make me like you. Wait...no, my mistake. What I meant to say was, it never fails to make me hate you with a passion that burns brighter and hotter than the combined cores of a trillion suns.

 

It's a love-hate relationship with Jacko. I just keep reminding myself of why Yankees fans want to spend all their time on a Red Sox board. We are way cooler and far less annoying than they are.

[jacksonianmarch]

I live in Mass so surrounding my selves with sox fans is my normal. I've been on all sorts of boards over the years. This is home now

[Bellhorn04]

I still say it's an overdramatization to try to pass that off as the reason the Orioles lost that game. It's an exercise in making a mountain out of a medium-sized hill -- there's something to it, but not as much as you're making it out to be. The Orioles had plenty of opportunities to win that game, or secure their lead, prior to the Britton decision and did not do so.

 

Besides, if Showalter had made the "right" call, Britton would still not have been a factor by the 11th inning, he would have come out of the bullpen in the bottom of the 9th, exactly like a lot of teams do with their closer when tied on the road, and Ubaldo Jimenez probably still pitches the bottom of the 11th, or if not, the bottom of the 12th, since he seems to have been the designated longman. There's nothing Showalter could have done that wouldn't have eventually meant exactly that situation would come up (Jimenez on the mound against TOR's best hitters I mean) if the game went on long enough without Baltimore hitters breaking through..

 

I get that not using him right then was a mistake, especially from the perspective of that snapshot in time right before Encarnacion hit the home run, but pretending that it cost the team the game is just a little bit over the top.

 

It *might have* cost his team the game. We've had that discussion before, how we never know what might have happened.

 

I adamantly think Britton should have pitched the 11th. He might also have been able to pitch the 12th.

 

You just can't leave him out of the game in a season-deciding game. It's a case of not giving yourself the best chance possible.

[Dojji]

Your choices are "Britton pitches the bottom of the 9th and is unavailable by the 11th inning" and "Britton pitches only when the Orioles take the lead." If you're taking the "all hands on deck" strategy, Britton is out of the game by the 11th and Jimenez is probably still pitching when Encarnacion comes up. It's a fallacy to assume that Britton was going to be used in the 11th unless the O's took the lead. The fact that he was even available to be used in the 11th is a direct result of the very decision you're criticising.

 

And I do want you to consider that carefully. You've got your long man on in a tie game. You've already burnt your entire pen. The best possible result here is that Britton gets through that inning and preserves the tie, and if that's the case, who the hell pitches the 12th? The game is still tied. Your bats have not broken the tie in the last 7 innings, it's unrealistically optimistic to assume they'll magically do so next inning and like I said, you've already burnt through your entire stable of relievers and long guys. Your closer might be game for it but how many 2 inning performances has he given all year? Can't be more than a handful, if any at all. So who the hell do you warm if the game keeps going and you can't break the tie in the 12th? Gonna bring a starter in, and all the issues that might generate down the road, not to mention the potential for injury in bringing anyone out in a role they're unfamiliar with (see also: Wright, Steven)? This is the question facing Showalter in the bottom of the 11th, and it's not an easy one.

 

Once Jimenez came out there, he had to stay out there until the tie broke one way or the other, because he was the long man and only the closer and the rest of the starters were behind him. Now arguably they should have used Britton on the bottom of the 9th to take that one extra inning away from the long man, but even if they did, Jimenez would still be out there in the 11th, the entire difference would have been that Jimenez would not also have pitched the 10th.

 

I just do not see at all how the decision to not use Britton in the bottom of the 9th, which is the only inning Showalter would have ever used Britton without a lead, makes the huge difference people are crediting it with.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

Your choices are "Britton pitches the bottom of the 9th and is unavailable by the 11th inning" and "Britton pitches only when the Orioles take the lead." If you're taking the "all hands on deck" strategy, Britton is out of the game by the 11th and Jimenez is probably still pitching when Encarnacion comes up. It's a fallacy to assume that Britton was going to be used in the 11th unless the O's took the lead. The fact that he was even available to be used in the 11th is a direct result of the very decision you're criticising.

 

And I do want you to consider that carefully. You've got your long man on in a tie game. You've already burnt your entire pen. The best possible result here is that Britton gets through that inning and preserves the tie, and if that's the case, who the hell pitches the 12th? The game is still tied. Your bats have not broken the tie in the last 7 innings, it's unrealistically optimistic to assume they'll magically do so next inning and like I said, you've already burnt through your entire stable of relievers and long guys. Who the hell do you warm if the game keeps going and you can't break the tie in the 12th? Gonna bring a starter in, and all the issues that might generate down the road, not to mention the potential for injury in bringing anyone out in a role they're unfamiliar with (see also: Wright, Steven)? This is the question facing Showalter in the bottom of the 11th, and it's not an easy one.

 

Once Jimenez came out there, he had to stay out there until the tie broke one way or the other, because he was the long man and only the closer and the rest of the starters were behind him. Now arguably they should have used Britton on the bottom of the 9th but even if they did, Jimenez would still be out there in the 11th, the entire difference would have been that Jimenez would not also have pitched the 10th.

 

OK. Before going to Jimenez, Showalter used: 1. Brach - reliever with a 2.05 ERA this year. 2. O'Day - reliever with a 3.77 ERA this year, 2.41 career. If Britton had pitched earlier, one of these guys could have been used first, instead of a starter with a 5.44 ERA this year.

 

If Britton could have pitched 2 innings, Jimenez wouldn't have had to pitch until the 13th.

 

That's all you can do-postpone the bad option as long as possible and hope for runs. The Jays options would be getting worse and worse too.

[georom4]

Saturday the Jays starter was a lefty...Hill and Young usually started against lefties...you're right, the facts are there.

 

so you're saying that's the lineup when we face a lefty in the postseason? want to make a wager?

[Dojji]

Yeah, exactly. One of those guys would have pitched the 10th, and Jimenez would still be out there in the 11th, the entire difference is he'd be 1 inning fresher.

 

Your math is counting Britton twice and once for 2 innings which I don't think he did all year. I find this hillarious.

[User Name]

Dojji, you are just flat out, unequivocally wrong. In a "one run for the other team wins the game" type of situation you bring out your relievers in reverse order of quality. You are holding on for dear life, not preparing for a save situation.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah, exactly. One of those guys would have pitched the 10th, and Jimenez would still be out there in the 11th, the entire difference is he'd be 1 inning fresher.

 

Your math is counting Britton twice and once for 2 innings which I don't think he did all year. I find this hillarious.

 

Now you're not making any sense at all. WTF, I didn't count Britton twice, I just swapped the order for you. And he pitched 2 innings once this year and 1.2 innings in the last game of the year - needing only 20 pitches.