Referendum on John Farrell

[mvp 78]

Good posts regarding Farrell in this thread. I agree.

 

I've always felt that the off field managing is far more important than the in game decisions. IMO, Farrell does a very good job with that aspect of managing.

 

I'm glad you find value with my posts even if they don't always match your beliefs.

[illinoisredsox]

Don't hirt your back with those goalposts!

 

I didn't want Salty starting that postseason. That's not second guessing.

 

The World Series does not equal the postseason. Nice try.

 

It took 2 series for Salty to play his way out of the catching rotation. A person with the foresight you have should have made that statement prior to the Tampa series.

 

You deny making that middle post? Of course, we are all supposed to infer you only meant some time after the middle of Game 2.

 

And you accuse ME of moving the goalposts?

 

Don't hurt your head with those metal gyrations.

Edited July 26, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[mvp 78]

You deny making that middle post? Of course, we are all supposed to infer you only meant some time after the middle of Game 2.

 

And you accuse ME of moving the goalposts?

 

Don't hurt your head with those metal gyrations.

 

I won't because there aren't any. We were talking about the World Series. That post was in direct reference to the World Series.

 

Enjoy telling me how I felt 3 years ago though.

[mvp 78]

I stated I didn't want Salty to start.

 

You said "sure you didn't."

 

I found proof that I didn't want him starting and you dismissed it. At the end of the day, I know what my feelings were and no amount of evidence would change your mind anyway.

 

Roommate 1: what did you guys do last night?

Roommate 2: watched the Sox and ate pizza.

R 1: sure you did.

R 2: the pizza box is on the table and the tv is set to NESN.

R 1: no, I still don't believe you.

[Bellhorn04]

Good posts regarding Farrell in this thread. I agree.

 

I've always felt that the off field managing is far more important than the in game decisions. IMO, Farrell does a very good job with that aspect of managing.

 

And yet there are so many in game decisions that can have an impact in close ones like last night.

 

-Did he remove Pomeranz too early?

-Were Kelly and Buchholz the right choices?

-Should Hill have pinch-hit in the 8th?

[Bellhorn04]

Not hitting for Workman late in the game when Napoli was on the bench.

Not moving on from Salty sooner. Sox really needed Ross' defense and Salty's bat wasn't doing enough to keep him in the lineup.

Used Gomes over Nava too often.

Too slow to get Xander playing time when he played well down the stretch. Drew's bat was terrible and Middlebrooks wasn't doing anything. Salty and Middlebrooks combined to really screw up the end of game 3.

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned Drew's bat here. He had an excellent season. He slumped badly in the postseason (as did most of our hitters), but his defence was outstanding.

[Bellhorn04]

Also, I'll never understand how Farrell can be knocked for favoring Gomes over Nava that postseason. Neither of them did much, but Gomes's 3-run homer in Game 4 of the Series was huge. And it came off a RH pitcher.

[illinoisredsox]

And yet there are so many in game decisions that can have an impact in close ones like last night.

 

My opinions:

 

-Did he remove Pomeranz too early?

 

No. Pomeranz was pushing 100 pitches and his command was much worse in the 6th than it had been earlier.

 

-Were Kelly and Buchholz the right choices?

 

Kelly - got to find out if he can be a bridge guy at some point. He made the one bad pitch that Upton hammered, but McCann actually hit ball 4 off his fists into a perfect spot. It was a pitcher's pitch and the batter got lucky.

 

Buchholz - Can't really complain here. He gave up a bloop hit to Iglesias, the passed ball was the difference maker in the inning; VMart hit the ball hard but it was on the ground and through a drawn in infield.

 

Given the overall implosion of the bullpen against over the weekend, I don't have an issue with the choices.

 

-Should Hill have pinch-hit in the 8th?

 

More a case of which bad match-up to take. If Farrell sends up Hill in that spot, the Tigers counter with a righty, probably KRod. Or, you have Holt vs. a struggling Tiger lefty who had allowed a run, 4 hits and thrown a lot of pitches in that inning.

 

While Holt hit over .300 against southpaws last year, he has struggled in very limited action against them this year. Hill lifetime against KRod is 2-11. Neither option was particularly appetizing.

Edited July 26, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[illinoisredsox]

I won't because there aren't any. We were talking about the World Series. That post was in direct reference to the World Series.

 

Enjoy telling me how I felt 3 years ago though.

 

Upon rereading through this exchange, I think it's not a matter of either of us moving the goalposts. I think we are looking at different sized goalposts. To me "I didn't want Salty starting that postseason." means all 3 series (the wider high school goalposts); from what you are saying in the past few posts, you meant World Series, or perhaps at the end of the ALCS (the narrower NFL goalposts).

 

Time to move on.

[illinoisredsox]

Also, I'll never understand how Farrell can be knocked for favoring Gomes over Nava that postseason. Neither of them did much, but Gomes's 3-run homer in Game 4 of the Series was huge. And it came off a RH pitcher.

 

Agreed.

 

OTOH, Johnson never should have pinch hit for Willoughby in game 7.

[mvp 78]

I'm not sure why you mentioned Drew's bat here. He had an excellent season. He slumped badly in the postseason (as did most of our hitters), but his defence was outstanding.

 

You asked which decisions were questionable. I just made a list of what people questioned on the internet at the time.

 

To me, the best lineup was Xander at 3b (WMB couldn't hit or field), Drew at SS (solid defense) and Ross at C (solid defense).

 

I know we all goofed on here about the Gomes/Nava situation and said that Gomes should start every game because they were like 8-0 when he started in the postseason. We weren't being entirely serious about it so I didn't put it in the list.

[mvp 78]

Also, I'll never understand how Farrell can be knocked for favoring Gomes over Nava that postseason. Neither of them did much, but Gomes's 3-run homer in Game 4 of the Series was huge. And it came off a RH pitcher.

 

I think people didn't like Gomes' glove and his platoon was a little rough. It was believed that Nava had a better chance of hitting RHP and LHP. I don't think the difference between either was all that great.

[mvp 78]

Upon rereading through this exchange, I think it's not a matter of either of us moving the goalposts. I think we are looking at different sized goalposts. To me "I didn't want Salty starting that postseason." means all 3 series (the wider high school goalposts); from what you are saying in the past few posts, you meant World Series, or perhaps at the end of the ALCS (the narrower NFL goalposts).

 

Time to move on.

 

Agreed.

[mvp 78]

And yet there are so many in game decisions that can have an impact in close ones like last night.

 

-Did he remove Pomeranz too early?

-Were Kelly and Buchholz the right choices?

-Should Hill have pinch-hit in the 8th?

 

I thought they'd use Hill a lot more than they are. I don't think Farrell did a bad job last night.

[Kimmi]

And yet there are so many in game decisions that can have an impact in close ones like last night.

 

-Did he remove Pomeranz too early?

-Were Kelly and Buchholz the right choices?

-Should Hill have pinch-hit in the 8th?

 

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of decisions to be made. It's also very easy for all of us to second guess Farrell's decisions when they don't work out. I just think that what a manager decides in game has less impact on the team overall than his off field managing.

 

I suppose there are managers who are so incompetent that their on field managing really does cost the team a lot of games. I don't know. But I haven't seen any gross mismanagement on Farrell's part.

[cp176]

I have to add that his bench coach and once again heir apparent is sitting right beside him. He has to be in on the decisions that are made. Coaches run things constantly by their assistants. Many very good coaches will tell you honestly that their assistants have made them very good. I see Louvollo(sp) as simply a younger extension of Farrell. We second guess, look at things in hindsight constantly. It is what we do. It makes the forum fun. Bottom line is that Farrell handles personal very professionally. His on field decisions may be average or whatever you think they are. An in-house change is a change for change sake and would provide no real upgrade.

[S5Dewey]

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of decisions to be made. It's also very easy for all of us to second guess Farrell's decisions when they don't work out. I just think that what a manager decides in game has less impact on the team overall than his off field managing.

 

I suppose there are managers who are so incompetent that their on field managing really does cost the team a lot of games. I don't know. But I haven't seen any gross mismanagement on Farrell's part.

 

It's also worth mentioning that according to some of the posters who have been critical of JF, anything THEY do would have worked, and I see almost NO chance of that being the case.

[Bellhorn04]

It's also worth mentioning that according to some of the posters who have been critical of JF, anything THEY do would have worked, and I see almost NO chance of that being the case.

 

Also, if you get 2 manager-bashers together, there's a good chance they will frequently disagree with each other on what the right moves are or were.

[Maxbialystock]

I hated his defense. The Sox ended up benching him because of his s***** defense.

 

If his offense was so worthwhile, why didn't they bring him back the next year?

 

p.s. Thanks for the compliment! Farrell ended up following my advice later in the series.

 

I hated his defense too and am confident that's the primary reason--plus other, better catchers coming up in the system and the cost of keeping Salty--the Sox let him go. But your case against Farrell, basically that he should simply not have used Salty in the 2013 postseason, is just silly. FWIW, I was surprised to learn that Salty's defensive WAR in 2013 was .3 to Ross's .6, which to me isn't a huge difference. And Saltalamacchia's overall WAR that year was 2.9, 4th best among AL catchers, to Ross's .7. And guess who is still catching in MLB and currently for the Tigers? Salty.

 

The point is, it made all kinds of sense for Salty to be the primary catcher in the 2013 postseason, despite his defense. I pointed out--and you chose to ignore this--that he couldn't have been that bad defensively in the ALDS and ALCS, not only because the Sox won the first 3-1 and the second 4-2, but also because Salty caught the only Sox shut out, game 3 against the Tigers, in the 2013 playoffs. Farrell also didn't hesitate to have him pinch hit for Ross in the 7th inning and then stay in to catch in the 1-0 lost to Detroit.

 

You keep saying that Farrell finally did what you recommended all along, but I see what happened very differently. He got some good use out of Salty in the first two series, ALDS and ALCS, which the Sox won, and used him in the WS, but then made a very bold decision after game 3 not to use him again, and it worked.

 

I say again, I am not a Salty fan and basically agree with you about his defense. Plus I didn't like his K's (as a hitter). But the evidence is very strong that the Sox got good use out of him 2013 and then let him go when it made sense and Farrell in particular handled him brilliantly in the 2013 postseason.

 

As I recall, I also preferred Nava over Gomes by a big margin in 2013, but give Farrell a ton of credit for getting the most out of both of them in the playoffs.

 

It is also beyond me how you insist that not using Bogaerts more when he was 20 was a big mistake. Again, I didn't like Middlebrooks that much either, but he had experience. As it was, I think the evidence is very strong that Farrell brought Bogaerts along beautifully in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016. Yes, a ton of credit goes to Bogaerts himself--the kid is talented--but Farrell helped by playing him just the right amount.

 

Then of course there's the simple fact that the Sox won the WS in Farrell's first time managing in the postseason.

[mvp 78]

I hated his defense too and am confident that's the primary reason--plus other, better catchers coming up in the system and the cost of keeping Salty--the Sox let him go. But your case against Farrell, basically that he should simply not have used Salty in the 2013 postseason, is just silly. FWIW, I was surprised to learn that Salty's defensive WAR in 2013 was .3 to Ross's .6, which to me isn't a huge difference. And Saltalamacchia's overall WAR that year was 2.9, 4th best among AL catchers, to Ross's .7. And guess who is still catching in MLB and currently for the Tigers? Salty.

 

The point is, it made all kinds of sense for Salty to be the primary catcher in the 2013 postseason, despite his defense. I pointed out--and you chose to ignore this--that he couldn't have been that bad defensively in the ALDS and ALCS, not only because the Sox won the first 3-1 and the second 4-2, but also because Salty caught the only Sox shut out, game 3 against the Tigers, in the 2013 playoffs. Farrell also didn't hesitate to have him pinch hit for Ross in the 7th inning and then stay in to catch in the 1-0 lost to Detroit.

 

You keep saying that Farrell finally did what you recommended all along, but I see what happened very differently. He got some good use out of Salty in the first two series, ALDS and ALCS, which the Sox won, and used him in the WS, but then made a very bold decision after game 3 not to use him again, and it worked.

 

I say again, I am not a Salty fan and basically agree with you about his defense. Plus I didn't like his K's (as a hitter). But the evidence is very strong that the Sox got good use out of him 2013 and then let him go when it made sense and Farrell in particular handled him brilliantly in the 2013 postseason.

 

As I recall, I also preferred Nava over Gomes by a big margin in 2013, but give Farrell a ton of credit for getting the most out of both of them in the playoffs.

 

It is also beyond me how you insist that not using Bogaerts more when he was 20 was a big mistake. Again, I didn't like Middlebrooks that much either, but he had experience. As it was, I think the evidence is very strong that Farrell brought Bogaerts along beautifully in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016. Yes, a ton of credit goes to Bogaerts himself--the kid is talented--but Farrell helped by playing him just the right amount.

 

Then of course there's the simple fact that the Sox won the WS in Farrell's first time managing in the postseason.

 

1. Salty is still in the league because he's far younger than Ross was.

2. Ross' WAR was less because of the fewer games played.

3. Salty's defense was always suspect. That's not up for debate and some retrospective rose colored glasses treatment.

4. Your "very bold" decision was something that was more than obvious to a lot of people. Salty's terrible defense was a large part of the losses in Games 2 and 3. Hard to call it "brilliant" when you throw away 2 WS games. More like flying by the seat of your pants.

5. WMB wasn't all that more experienced than Xander at the time. WMB had been up and down in the organization that year and was a replacement level bat and worse for defense. Xander was seen as a more athletic guy who gave them a better chance of winning. WMB played a half season in 2012 before getting injured. In 2013 he was handed the 3b position for opening day and he just fumbled the opportunity away. He never adjusted to MLB pitching and was hitting .200 when sent down at the end of May.

 

You can keep saying things like "it's beyond me why you thought this," but the fact of the matter is that in those examples I had the correct instinct. Farrell took too long to adjust. This team won in spite of Farrell thanks to a generational performance by Papi and Koji.

[Bellhorn04]

And we won in 2004 and 2007 in spite of Tito, in the eyes of many.

[Kimmi]

It's also worth mentioning that according to some of the posters who have been critical of JF, anything THEY do would have worked, and I see almost NO chance of that being the case.

 

True. What some people fail to recognize also is that just because a move didn't work, it doesn't mean that it was the wrong move. There might also be circumstances behind a decision that we, as fans, are completely unaware of.

[illinoisredsox]

Actually, Ross is still playing; he's with the Cubs.

 

If I remember correctly, didn't Ross go on the concussion DL 2 separate times in 2013? There was a short stint fairly early (May maybe) and then one that went a couple months later that summer.

 

Salty's defense was never that good. His game management blew. Perhaps my biggest criticism of him is that he almost never went to the mound. If a pitcher was struggling, he just dutifully crouched back down and put down another sign; no going out to give the pi6tcher an earful or break up the negative mojo or anything like that. It wasn't an organizational thing; Ross went out there when needed. Varitek certainly did. And since his defense has always been below average and he brought no particular intangibles to handling the pitching staff, once he stopped hitting in the 2013 postseason (as in not even making contact), there was absolutely no reason keep him in the line-up.

[mvp 78]

And we won in 2004 and 2007 in spite of Tito, in the eyes of many.

 

Not to me. Tito is a great manager.

[mvp 78]

At least Salty won the Montero debate for us.

[Bellhorn04]

Not to me. Tito is a great manager.

 

No, I know you are a Tito guy.

[Maxbialystock]

1. Salty is still in the league because he's far younger than Ross was.

2. Ross' WAR was less because of the fewer games played.

3. Salty's defense was always suspect. That's not up for debate and some retrospective rose colored glasses treatment.

4. Your "very bold" decision was something that was more than obvious to a lot of people. Salty's terrible defense was a large part of the losses in Games 2 and 3. Hard to call it "brilliant" when you throw away 2 WS games. More like flying by the seat of your pants.

5. WMB wasn't all that more experienced than Xander at the time. WMB had been up and down in the organization that year and was a replacement level bat and worse for defense. Xander was seen as a more athletic guy who gave them a better chance of winning. WMB played a half season in 2012 before getting injured. In 2013 he was handed the 3b position for opening day and he just fumbled the opportunity away. He never adjusted to MLB pitching and was hitting .200 when sent down at the end of May.

 

You can keep saying things like "it's beyond me why you thought this," but the fact of the matter is that in those examples I had the correct instinct. Farrell took too long to adjust. This team won in spite of Farrell thanks to a generational performance by Papi and Koji.

 

Are you honestly saying it was the right instinct not to play Salty in the 2013 playoffs when he had one of the highest BA and OPS among AL catchers while Ross hit .216 in the regular season? Salty had 4 times as many at bats, but his offensive WAR (OWAR) was 3.5 to Ross's .3 , a huge difference not explained by 4 times as many at bats. Ross was a defensive catcher and a solid backup, period. I said Salty is still playing, FYI, as evidence his defense can't be all that bad. Same goes for the regular season in 2013--he wasn't good, but he wasn't a disaster. For one thing, the Sox pitching held up pretty good that season.

 

On the decision to bench Salty after game 3 of the WS. You're right, by then it made sense and wasn't all that bold. But the fact remains that up until the WS the Sox had fared well--beating the Rays 3-1 and the Tigers 4-2--and, more importantly pitched well with Salty as the primary catcher. I did omit the fact that Salty did not hit well in the postseason, which probably made it easier to bench him after game 3 of the WS. But up until the WS you can't convince me that Ross should have suddenly been made the primary catcher for the ALDS and ALCS.

 

Middlebrooks vs. Bogaerts. Like you and everyone else, I liked Bogaerts from the get go, but the simple fact is that he didn't even get to Boston until August 19, 2013, after which he played in a grant total of 18 regular season games. Middlebrooks had had an excellent season in 2012 with 75 games, 17 dingers,and an OPS of .835. In 2013 he played in 94 games with 19 dingers and an OPS of .696. Plus he was 4 years older than Bogaerts. Despite the very significant differential in age and experience, Farrell actually played Bogaerts in 12 games to 10 games for Middlebrooks in the 2013 postseason. By any rational measure, Farrell brought Bogaerts along very well.

 

Luck factor in 2013. Beyond question, the Sox and Farrell were lucky. Stuff came together. Lackey blossomed after the tommy john and was better than ever. Lester had a great year. Uehara didn't start as the closer, but became one and did incredibly well, especially in the postseason. And so on. To me the story of the postseason was great pitching--team era was 2.00--and some timely hitting despite a low team OPS. Ortiz stood out with 13 rbi's, but guess what? Victorino had 12. Ortiz also had 12 runs scored, but Ellsbury had 14. Uehara had 7 saves, no BS's, and an ERA under 1. Fantastic. But he pitched 13 innings to Lester's 35 and Lackey's 26,and both of them had excellent postseasons. And let's not forget that of the Sox 5 postseason losses, one belongs to Uehara--game 3 at Tampa. My point is it was a team win and Farrell managed the team well. He did not in fact take "too long to adjust."

Edited July 26, 2016 by Maxbialystock

[mvp 78]

On the decision to bench Salty after game 3 of the WS. You're right, by then it made sense and wasn't all that bold. But the fact remains that up until the WS the Sox had fared well--beating the Rays 3-1 and the Tigers 4-2--and, more importantly pitched well with Salty as the primary catcher. I did omit the fact that Salty did not hit well in the postseason, which probably made it easier to bench him after game 3 of the WS. But up until the WS you can't convince me that Ross should have suddenly been made the primary catcher for the ALDS and ALCS.

 

Middlebrooks vs. Bogaerts. Like you and everyone else, I liked Bogaerts from the get go, but the simple fact is that he didn't even get to Boston until August 19, 2013, after which he played in a grant total of 18 regular season games. Middlebrooks had had an excellent season in 2012 with 75 games, 17 dingers,and an OPS of .835. In 2013 he played in 94 games with 19 dingers and an OPS of .696. Plus he was 4 years older than Bogaerts. Despite the very significant differential in age and experience, Farrell actually played Bogaerts in 12 games to 10 games for Middlebrooks in the 2013 postseason. By any rational measure, Farrell brought Bogaerts along very well.

 

Therein lies the problem.

 

Middlebrooks was beyond damaged goods by the time the 2013 Postseason began.

 

The weak links in that lineup were Salty's glove, Drew's bat and WMB's everything. In the Postseason, I would err on the side of defense and replace WMB and Salty with the backup options.

[Spudboy]

At least Salty won the Montero debate for us.

 

lol

[Spudboy]

No, I know you are a Tito guy.

 

Same here Dude.