2016 Prospects Thread

[Hugh2]

No I think the argument is being changed here in hindsight. What teams do is develop a guy at his natural position and move him if there is a hole to fill and the guy is ready or close to ready.

 

What we were arguing against then was the notion that because it looked like Moncada was blocked and his position on the team would be another position that he should be moved in advanced.

 

It's still 100% true that you don't move guys to a position based off of what the team needs might be in a year or two. That's not how development works and it never will be. Nothing which has transpired has changed that argument. They likely view Moncada as close to ready and see 3B as a viable option, and I'm sure there are other factors involved in that decision besides Pedey playing 2nd such as Shaws struggles recently.

 

Moncada is a phenom, that still validates our argument even if it is a month or two later. It's not like teams sit down and have a schedule of the exact date a guy is ready or will switch positions. It's not as if the team has it marked May 25th 2018 Devers will move to 1B. It was a silly argument then, and it still is now.....and no one here ever doubted the ideal that he would/could eventually move off of position the argument was when it should happen and at that point in time Moncada was in Single A.....he was in A ball!!!!!!!!!

[mvp 78]

I think with Moncada, the worry was that they wanted to make his transition as comfortable as possible. Leaving him at his normal position was done to not already pile on the huge adjustments he was making (culture, language, finances, etc.). I think they wanted to get him to succeed at each level before they threw a wrench in there.

[moonslav59]

No I think the argument is being changed here in hindsight. What teams do is develop a guy at his natural position and move him if there is a hole to fill and the guy is ready or close to ready. What we were arguing against then was the notion that because it looked like Moncada was blocked and his position on the team would be another position that he should be moved in advanced.

 

I disagree. I felt Moncada was super close to being ready with his hitting and emotional place. Some here felt that, no matter what, you don't promote a guy to a new level AND change his position within a year. It goes against "traditional protocol", they said.

 

If I thought Moncada was a fulkl year away, I would not have argued for giving him reps at 3B.

 

It's still 100% true that you don't move guys to a position based off of what the team needs might be in a year or two. That's not how development works and it never will be. Nothing which has transpired has changed that argument. They likely view Moncada as close to ready and see 3B as a viable option, and I'm sure there are other factors involved in that decision besides Pedey playing 2nd such as Shaws struggles recently.

 

Yes, Moncada is very close to ready. Some of us felt that and believed that a month or longer ago. Now, once the move has been made, the "follow the protocol" posters are calling him a "freak" and saying things like "there's no way anyone could have known he was a freak 1-3 months ago."

 

The Sox broke protocol with the "freak" Beni by making him our first player to be in the bigs a year after he was drafted since Fred Lynn. They also changed him from CF to LF shortly before the promotion. I'd have preferred he had been given more time in LF before the call-up, but the adjustment from CF to LF is much different than from 2B to 3B.

 

My argument is that when you clearly have someone special or "freakish", it's worse to wait too long to give him etime to learn his position before thrusting him into MLB with little practice at his new position than to be overly cautious when it's clear he's near "ready".

 

Bogey was given 10 days to learn 3B before joining the big team in the middle of a pennant race.

 

JBJ was moved to LF quickly, so a guy with some LF experience already and a worse CF'er defensively (Ellsbury) could stay in his comfort zone.

 

Swihart was moved to LF quickly and promptly got hurt.

 

Betts was moved pretty quickly from 2B to OF then the bigs.

 

Some moves have "worked" other are questionable. My position has always been, when a guy looks near ready, freak or not, move the guy to his likely position "sooner rather than later".

 

 

Moncada is a phenom, that still validates our argument even if it is a month or two later. It's not like teams sit down and have a schedule of the exact date a guy is ready or will switch positions. It's not as if the team has it marked May 25th 2018 Devers will move to 1B. It was a silly argument then, and it still is now.....and no one here ever doubted the ideal that he would/could eventually move off of position the argument was when it should happen and at that point in time Moncada was in Single A.....he was in A ball!!!!!!!!!

 

I thought the debate started when he was in AA for a few weeks.

[moonslav59]

I think with Moncada, the worry was that they wanted to make his transition as comfortable as possible. Leaving him at his normal position was done to not already pile on the huge adjustments he was making (culture, language, finances, etc.). I think they wanted to get him to succeed at each level before they threw a wrench in there.

+

Yes, that makes perfect sense to most players.

 

The timetable guideline was hastened when Moncada started showing incredible adjustment ability at his new level.

 

The kid now has a higher AA OPS than single A after just the 36 game mark!

 

You have to make adjustments all the time in baseball, even to those long and tried traditions. Imagine if the Sox of old had made Fred Lynn wait until 1976!

[mvp 78]

And now that he has succeeded at AA, he's being given reps at 3b. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I think the Sox are being smart in how they are handling Moncada considering that investment they paid to acquire him and the fact that he could be a generational talent if developed properly.

[cp176]

Couple of things once again - Benintendi could become a good and maybe even a great player for us but he is not my idea of "freakish" in any way. Moncada is. Benintendi might be the better player overall but Moncada has "stuff" that puts him in the rarified air district.

 

I'm not sure anyone contributing here knows what Moncada's natural position is or was. We know that in his home country he played in the outfield as well as the infield. Kind of sounds like based on what has been written that he sat down with management and they asked him what position he was most comfortable with. There are lots of people here who see him as our third baseman going forward. Maybe - maybe not. The only place it doesn't look like it could be is second base.

[moonslav59]

And now that he has succeeded at AA, he's being given reps at 3b. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I think the Sox are being smart in how they are handling Moncada considering that investment they paid to acquire him and the fact that he could be a generational talent if developed properly.

 

I could be wrong, but I thought you were one of the posters who said you don't promote a player and change his position within the same year.

 

It was NOT you who called it a "silly idea" to even think about giving him reps at 3B this year, but you seemed to think following "protocol" was called for with Moncada.

 

The issue really was about how quickly anyone thought Moncada could master AA and become near "ML ready". With a freak like Moncada, I felt we needed to keep the door open to the possibility he might surprise us.

 

I did not call for him to be moved to 3B right away, but I caught flack for even suggesting he be given reps at 3B in practice "soon". Not the next day. Maybe not even the next week, but soon, based on the idea that with every game he played, he looked more and more "ready".

[mvp 78]

To me, following protocol means not doing anything above and beyond which would be considered reasonable from a developmental perspective. For Moncada, he has a ton of issues to deal with outside of just playing baseball that he was not prepared for. The Sox needed to be slower with him and make sure he was succeeding before putting more on his plate. Moncada has monster numbers at AA and since he was transitioning to AA without issue, it was perfectly reasonable to give him a shot at 3b. If he wasn't hitting the way he is, I'd question moving him to 3b as it would seem to not follow protocol.

[cp176]

Once again - i really would like to know who decided on second base for him? Was it him? Maybe I'm being contrary but I don't think there was information to go on when that decision was made. it is all good . He is just a kid but if since he is so young and had experience at various positions, it does make me wonder - why the most blocked position that you could ask for with respect to Boston? i'm thinking that maybe people really did think that Sandoval was going to be here for a while. All that being said, it would not surprise me to see Moncada at first or in the outfield if he stays with us.

[moonslav59]

To me, following protocol means not doing anything above and beyond which would be considered reasonable from a developmental perspective. For Moncada, he has a ton of issues to deal with outside of just playing baseball that he was not prepared for. The Sox needed to be slower with him and make sure he was succeeding before putting more on his plate. Moncada has monster numbers at AA and since he was transitioning to AA without issue, it was perfectly reasonable to give him a shot at 3b. If he wasn't hitting the way he is, I'd question moving him to 3b as it would seem to not follow protocol.

 

But, he was hitting, and I thought you were with the crowd that thought he should not play 3B this year- no matter what- due to "protocol".

[moonslav59]

Once again - i really would like to know who decided on second base for him? Was it him? Maybe I'm being contrary but I don't think there was information to go on when that decision was made. it is all good . He is just a kid but if since he is so young and had experience at various positions, it does make me wonder - why the most blocked position that you could ask for with respect to Boston? i'm thinking that maybe people really did think that Sandoval was going to be here for a while. All that being said, it would not surprise me to see Moncada at first or in the outfield if he stays with us.

 

I guess he has played 3B before in Cuba at age 16.

 

Your point is well-taken. The protocol is for a player to learn his natural poisiton, and then, when he is ML ready, you begin to find a new position, if he is blocked.

 

Since Moncada had no "natural position" the idea to move him to 3B takes on a whole new context.

[User Name]

It was "silly" of us to think of Moncada as a freak a month or more before others.

 

It was. Thanks for admitting it.

[User Name]

No I think the argument is being changed here in hindsight. What teams do is develop a guy at his natural position and move him if there is a hole to fill and the guy is ready or close to ready.

 

What we were arguing against then was the notion that because it looked like Moncada was blocked and his position on the team would be another position that he should be moved in advanced.

 

It's still 100% true that you don't move guys to a position based off of what the team needs might be in a year or two. That's not how development works and it never will be. Nothing which has transpired has changed that argument. They likely view Moncada as close to ready and see 3B as a viable option, and I'm sure there are other factors involved in that decision besides Pedey playing 2nd such as Shaws struggles recently.

 

Moncada is a phenom, that still validates our argument even if it is a month or two later. It's not like teams sit down and have a schedule of the exact date a guy is ready or will switch positions. It's not as if the team has it marked May 25th 2018 Devers will move to 1B. It was a silly argument then, and it still is now.....and no one here ever doubted the ideal that he would/could eventually move off of position the argument was when it should happen and at that point in time Moncada was in Single A.....he was in A ball!!!!!!!!!

 

Nah, people at Talksox know better.

[User Name]

I think with Moncada, the worry was that they wanted to make his transition as comfortable as possible. Leaving him at his normal position was done to not already pile on the huge adjustments he was making (culture, language, finances, etc.). I think they wanted to get him to succeed at each level before they threw a wrench in there.

 

Nope, he needed reps at 3B STAT.

[mvp 78]

This is what I said back in mid June:

 

It's a pretty substantial jump to AA (as we are seeing with Benintendi) so I'd prefer to just leave him at 2b until his bat adjusts.

[mvp 78]

Here's what I said about Moncada over a month ago.

 

Benintendi and Moncada are definitely 1a and 1b. I think a case could be made for either. Benintendi may be a little more polished, but Moncada is an athletic freak.

[mvp 78]

But, he was hitting, and I thought you were with the crowd that thought he should not play 3B this year- no matter what- due to "protocol".

 

I've never stated as such.

[mvp 78]

It was. Thanks for admitting it.

 

The silly part to me is the endless patting themselves on the back. I guess that's how things were at BDC?

 

If we're keeping score, my offseason was pretty spot on in regards to needing a #2, thinking Hanley would be fine at 1b and not the disaster everyone thought he would be, wanting Pablo gone so that Shaw could play 3b, not wanting to get Buchholz's no brainer option, wanting an ERod replacement the second he went down, wanting Taz and Uehara's innings managed, etc... Would people want me to talk about this ad nauseam?

 

I guess all they have is "welp, we thought Benintendi and Moncada were "really great" but you only said they were just "great." s***, you got me man... I'm ruined.

[a700hitter]

The silly part to me is the endless patting themselves on the back. I guess that's how things were at BDC?

 

If we're keeping score, my offseason was pretty spot on in regards to needing a #2, thinking Hanley would be fine at 1b and not the disaster everyone thought he would be, wanting Pablo gone so that Shaw could play 3b, not wanting to get Buchholz's no brainer option, wanting an ERod replacement the second he went down, wanting Taz and Uehara's innings managed, etc... Would people want me to talk about this ad nauseam?

 

I guess all they have is "welp, we thought Benintendi and Moncada were "really great" but you only said they were just "great." s***, you got me man... I'm ruined.

But we keep reminding you about Pedey. With one or two exceptions,the BDC people rarely take a stance that doesn't have a bunch of conditions, so it is hard for me to take them seriously when they pay themselves on the back. Boxmal is one of the few that has the cajones to put his opinions on the line without condition.

[User Name]

Yup, credit where credit is due.

[moonslav59]

The silly part to me is the endless patting themselves on the back. I guess that's how things were at BDC?

 

If we're keeping score, my offseason was pretty spot on in regards to needing a #2, thinking Hanley would be fine at 1b and not the disaster everyone thought he would be, wanting Pablo gone so that Shaw could play 3b, not wanting to get Buchholz's no brainer option, wanting an ERod replacement the second he went down, wanting Taz and Uehara's innings managed, etc... Would people want me to talk about this ad nauseam?

 

I guess all they have is "welp, we thought Benintendi and Moncada were "really great" but you only said they were just "great." s***, you got me man... I'm ruined.

 

Silly was calling us wrong,even after the move was made. Silly was just now noticing Moncada is a "freak" and might warrant tweaking protocol..

 

I've admitted I was wrong more times than anyone else probably many combined both here and on BDC.

 

I don't feel I was beating my chest or patting myself on the back. I even said I was surprised Moncada started at 3B so quickly after starting reps at 3B.

 

I stand corrected on your position on "protocol". I must have confused you with someone else. Sorry.

 

[mvp 78]

But we keep reminding you about Pedey. With one or two exceptions,the BDC people rarely take a stance that doesn't have a bunch of conditions, so it is hard for me to take them seriously when they pay themselves on the back. Boxmal is one of the few that has the cajones to put his opinions on the line without condition.

 

I would have tried to trade Pedey for a #2 starter. My reasoning was:

1. The rotation was the greatest need.

2. The Sox had a lot of IF depth (especially when including Holt in the mix).

3. Pedroia tends to get injured every year and provides diminishing results.

 

Pedroia has pleasantly surprised me this year because he is now not trying to hit a HR every time and is using all fields, his defense has rebounded from last year's nightmare of a season and he has yet to get injured so far. If he could stay healthy, I wouldn't move him at this point. I just think he's a ticking time bomb with the way he plays.

[moonslav59]

I would have tried to trade Pedey for a #2 starter. My reasoning was:

1. The rotation was the greatest need.

2. The Sox had a lot of IF depth (especially when including Holt in the mix).

3. Pedroia tends to get injured every year and provides diminishing results.

 

Pedroia has pleasantly surprised me this year because he is now not trying to hit a HR every time and is using all fields, his defense has rebounded from last year's nightmare of a season and he has yet to get injured so far. If he could stay healthy, I wouldn't move him at this point. I just think he's a ticking time bomb with the way he plays.

 

Holt's best position is probably 2B. Moncada was probably closest to a ML call-up at 2B than anywhere else.

 

You position had and still has a lot of merit.

 

People think of Pedey as the "heart and soul" of the Sox, but I'm not sure about all that.

 

I'm always open to trading anybody, if the return is greater.

[cp176]

Silly was calling us wrong,even after the move was made. Silly was just now noticing Moncada is a "freak" and might warrant tweaking protocol..

 

I've admitted I was wrong more times than anyone else probably many combined both here and on BDC.

 

I don't feel I was beating my chest or patting myself on the back. I even said I was surprised Moncada started at 3B so quickly after starting reps at 3B.

 

I stand corrected on your position on "protocol". I must have confused you with someone else. Sorry.

 

 

I just read this - really! there is once again no credit given for being a fan and trying to follow the progress of our young players. it really isn't a contest but for you to even suggest that you knew something about Moncada before others did is ridiculous. I have had to defend my position with respect to him numerous times since March. I've said many times that he is a superior athlete to anyone we have or had in Benintendi's case. I'm sorry but you do try to present as being ahead of the game with respect to most of the people posting here. You aren't. Enjoy the forum and I do think that you add to it but some of the regular posters here are not just fans - they are damn good baseball people. If it has been said, written, or observed, someone here will know about it.

[moonslav59]

I just read this - really! there is once again no credit given for being a fan and trying to follow the progress of our young players. it really isn't a contest but for you to even suggest that you knew something about Moncada before others did is ridiculous. I have had to defend my position with respect to him numerous times since March. I've said many times that he is a superior athlete to anyone we have or had in Benintendi's case. I'm sorry but you do try to present as being ahead of the game with respect to most of the people posting here. You aren't. Enjoy the forum and I do think that you add to it but some of the regular posters here are not just fans - they are damn good baseball people. If it has been said, written, or observed, someone here will know about it.

 

My wording was directed at a poster who said something to the effect that Moncada was a "freak" and there was no way for anyone to know it until just a few days ago.

It was not meant as "chest thumping", as he called it.

 

I never pretend to know more than Sox management, but I will disagree with them at times.

 

It turned out the timetable I suggested- not demanded and not claimed with some sort of special insight turned out to be almost exactly what happened, and the poster in question still went on to call my position "silly", and my position was really pretty general and tame. All I said was that I felt they should start giving Moncada some reps at 3B during practice sooner rather than later. I never said they must move him to 3B soon. I never said I knew anything others didn't know. I was going off things I read about Moncada being extremely talented (a freak if you wish) and was getting close to ML ready with the bat.

 

As to respecting other knowledgeable posters, it was not I who called someone's position "silly" and "ridicules", especially after it ended up becoming reality within days. I do respect everyone here. There are not the obvious clowns & trolls there were at BDC.

 

I've been wrong so many times in my opinions that for you to act like I'm trying to create a persona of being better or more insightful than others here is so far from the truth, it's not even funny. I often admit I'm wrong. I'm opinionated and some times, not purposely, come across as being abrasive, because I seldom use the words "I think..." or "In my opinion..." , instead I just state my opinion and it sounds like I'm saying like it is fact. I don't mean to be like that. I'm not joking when I say that I truly believe I admited I was wrong more than every other poster on BDC combined. With over 50,000 posts there, being as opinionated as I am, and giving my opinion hundreds of more times than most others, of course I have been wrong a lot. When I am, I have no problem admitting it.

 

It's not my MO to brag about being right, but I will defend myself when someone calls me "silly" for thinking saying Moncada was too good to follow traditional protocol timeline guides.

 

[Kimmi]

I just read this - really! there is once again no credit given for being a fan and trying to follow the progress of our young players. it really isn't a contest but for you to even suggest that you knew something about Moncada before others did is ridiculous. I have had to defend my position with respect to him numerous times since March. I've said many times that he is a superior athlete to anyone we have or had in Benintendi's case. I'm sorry but you do try to present as being ahead of the game with respect to most of the people posting here. You aren't. Enjoy the forum and I do think that you add to it but some of the regular posters here are not just fans - they are damn good baseball people. If it has been said, written, or observed, someone here will know about it.

 

Pretty much every poster here is a very knowledgeable baseball fan. IMO, anyone who enjoys and follows baseball enough to be a regular poster on a baseball forum knows baseball pretty darn well and knows what they're talking about. We've all been right and we've all been wrong.

[User Name]

My wording was directed at a poster who said something to the effect that Moncada was a "freak" and there was no way for anyone to know it until just a few days ago.

It was not meant as "chest thumping", as he called it.

 

I never pretend to know more than Sox management, but I will disagree with them at times.

 

It turned out the timetable I suggested- not demanded and not claimed with some sort of special insight turned out to be almost exactly what happened, and the poster in question still went on to call my position "silly", and my position was really pretty general and tame. All I said was that I felt they should start giving Moncada some reps at 3B during practice sooner rather than later. I never said they must move him to 3B soon. I never said I knew anything others didn't know. I was going off things I read about Moncada being extremely talented (a freak if you wish) and was getting close to ML ready with the bat.

 

As to respecting other knowledgeable posters, it was not I who called someone's position "silly" and "ridicules", especially after it ended up becoming reality within days. I do respect everyone here. There are not the obvious clowns & trolls there were at BDC.

 

I've been wrong so many times in my opinions that for you to act like I'm trying to create a persona of being better or more insightful than others here is so far from the truth, it's not even funny. I often admit I'm wrong. I'm opinionated and some times, not purposely, come across as being abrasive, because I seldom use the words "I think..." or "In my opinion..." , instead I just state my opinion and it sounds like I'm saying like it is fact. I don't mean to be like that. I'm not joking when I say that I truly believe I admited I was wrong more than every other poster on BDC combined. With over 50,000 posts there, being as opinionated as I am, and giving my opinion hundreds of more times than most others, of course I have been wrong a lot. When I am, I have no problem admitting it.

 

It's not my MO to brag about being right, but I will defend myself when someone calls me "silly" for thinking saying Moncada was too good to follow traditional protocol timeline guides.

 

 

No, you totally do. Own it up. CP was banging the "Moncada is a generational talent" drum way earlier and harder than you were, yet he doesn't pretend he "knew" anything about his development or the FO's thinking. You've spent a month humble-bragging and pounding your chest for what amounts to a desperation move and a lucky guess. Sorry, I call 'em like I see 'em.

[moonslav59]

No, you totally do. Own it up. CP was banging the "Moncada is a generational talent" drum way earlier and harder than you were, yet he doesn't pretend he "knew" anything about his development or the FO's thinking. You've spent a month humble-bragging and pounding your chest for what amounts to a desperation move and a lucky guess. Sorry, I call 'em like I see 'em.

 

I don't pretend I know everything, so stop the incessant sand blatant lies. You are the master of strawman construction.

 

I'm done responding to your condescending bull.

[Hugh2]

Silly was calling us wrong,even after the move was made. Silly was just now noticing Moncada is a "freak" and might warrant tweaking protocol..

 

I've admitted I was wrong more times than anyone else probably many combined both here and on BDC.

 

I don't feel I was beating my chest or patting myself on the back. I even said I was surprised Moncada started at 3B so quickly after starting reps at 3B.

 

I stand corrected on your position on "protocol". I must have confused you with someone else. Sorry.

 

 

It wasn't an issue about being right or wrong it was an issue about player development. You didn't understand why a guy who was far off from the majors and in A/AA ball shouldn't move positions and we were telling you what teams do and why they do it. MLB teams still do that and will continue to do so, nothing has changed. I still don't understand where the argument is here. You're not just disagreeing with us but you're disagreeing with just about every MLB teams philosophy on player development. When we gave you an explanation of why things are that why you rejected it.

 

Also Moncada is a freak, we've known this for a while. But plenty of "freaks of nature" never hit their way out of A ball. Moncada is a freak who is performing and there is zero way of knowing a guy will perform until he is there doing it. Nobody had a crystal ball a month ago and nobody every will.

 

It's futile to say anyone predicted a guy would turn into a guy because all things considered there are only two main permutations. A guy is a guy....or a guy can't hit at the next level.

[moonslav59]

Pretty much every poster here is a very knowledgeable baseball fan. IMO, anyone who enjoys and follows baseball enough to be a regular poster on a baseball forum knows baseball pretty darn well and knows what they're talking about. We've all been right and we've all been wrong.

 

Very true, but some of us don't continue calling others "silly" and ridicules for expressing ideas that ended up coming true. Some of us don't construct strawmen to beat up in order to look smarter than everyone else.

 

I wasn't even on the "call up Moncada" bandwagon, so how was I pounding my chest about "being right"? My position was that I thought Moncada was very close to ready and the "second Sox management thought he was ready, we should call him up". Clearly that position hold no implication of knowing more than anyone else, especially Sox managment, yet one clown kept linking me to the call him up now crowd and still is today.

 

The "silly" label was placed on me (or my position) that Moncada should start taking reps at 3B "sooner rather than later" based on him being extremely close to being ML ready with his bat and 2B being blocked. I never claimed to be the first one to notice he was special and perhaps above normal protocol, but I wasn't one who just noticed it after they moved him to 3B a few days ago. I wasn't pounding my chest either. I was mostly responding to the clown, who even after Sox management began giving Moncada reps at 3B a couple weeks after I suggested it suggested the idea was still "silly" and "desperate". I'm fine with anyone thinking the Beni and Moncada moves were made out of "desperation". I never claimed they were not, because unlike the clown, I don't pretend to know everything. I never have and never will. I admit my plentiful mistakes often, but apparently some one else not only can't admit he was wrong, but he continues calling himself right and me wrong, even after Sox management did exactly what I suggested and he called silly.

 

Yes, the clown is very knowledgeable, but he's still a condescending clown, a liar and strawman extraordinaire.