The Official Dead Horse Topics Thread

[User Name]

You have to give Henry credit too, for being willing to spend more than ever. Talent wise, the team just needed pitching upgrades, but financially Ben left the team with a whole lot of wasted money. If there was still the constraint of being under the luxury tax, then it wouldn't have been so easy to turn the team into a contender. Without Henry upping the payroll, Price couldn't be here without somehow getting rid of one of Ben's major mistakes.

 

Then some of that credit goes back to DD, who was certainly instrumental in convincing Henry to loosen the purse strings.

[User Name]

I happen to agree that human factors and team chemistry can affect the way a team performs. I have stated so many times on this forum.

 

However, if you make a statement that is misleading or simply not true, I'm going to call you on it. This is not the first time that you have done this.

 

As for you not resorting to ad hominem attacks, spare me. For one, I am attacking your misleading statement, ie the topic. For two, might I remind you of your use of the term 'sychophant' just last week? And that is not the first time you've done that either.

 

He makes stuff up but expects not to be called out on it. If called out on it, he proceeds to resort to personal attacks, while stating he does not resort to personal attacks. Dude's a legend.

[Kimmi]

I corrected that with respect to you. You aren't a sychophant your defense of Cherrington is more filial like I said.

 

What I was referring by ad hominum was because a particular individual says something it isn't valid because that person said it. That is what is meant by ad hominum argumentum. What I said about Washington wasn't misleading or untrue it was accurate just because you couldn't find find it on the web. Like I said concern about Washington's clubhouse chemistry has been longstanding and not just last year.

 

So, if I said that many FOs offered Ben the position of President of Baseball Operations but he declined to interview for them, you would accept that as true, even though you had not heard it and you could not find any evidence of it anywhere? I highly doubt that.

 

As I said, I'm sure you probably heard someone talk about it on the radio at some point. Your statement was still misleading.

[Kimmi]

Not for those who know how to do it. They are called psychologists, sociologists, psychiatrists etc etc etc etc. I suppose you include Henry as one who unfairly criticized your boy Ben by firing him.

 

I do believe that Henry was too impatient and premature in firing Ben.

[a700hitter]

I do believe that Henry was too impatient and premature in firing Ben.

 

He didn't get fired!

[Kimmi]

He didn't get fired!

 

Technically, he didn't.

 

He was less fired than Dombrowski was.

[Elktonnick]

So, if I said that many FOs offered Ben the position of President of Baseball Operations but he declined to interview for them, you would accept that as true, even though you had not heard it and you could not find any evidence of it anywhere? I highly doubt that.

 

As I said, I'm sure you probably heard someone talk about it on the radio at some point. Your statement was still misleading.

 

I can see how you would think my statement was misleading if you also think that Henry was premature in firing Ben.You don't wish to have anything upset your world view.

[SoxnCycles]

Yeah right. You're about as subtle as a pickaxe.

 

I suppose I could use the collective "they" that's so popular with the passive-agressive types here.

[Elktonnick]

Technically, he didn't.

 

He was less fired than Dombrowski was.

 

Is being "less" fired sort like bring a little bit pregnant rhetorically speaking?

[Bellhorn04]

I do believe that Henry was too impatient and premature in firing Ben.

 

Hard to say, but it might not have happened if Henry's old pal Dombrowski hadn't just become available.

[SoxnCycles]

He makes stuff up but expects not to be called out on it. If called out on it, he proceeds to resort to personal attacks, while stating he does not resort to personal attacks. Dude's a legend.

 

The heroes on this board love to attack Kimmi because they know she's too nice to tell them what she really thinks.

Gutless turds.

[a700hitter]

Technically, he didn't.

 

He was less fired than Dombrowski was.

That's right. Therefore, Ben is the superior GM.

[a700hitter]

Yeah right. You're about as subtle as a pickaxe.

Yep. Lol!

[mvp 78]

I think Kimmi is great. She brings a different perspective to the board. I also like that she doesn't back down. I don't always agree with her opinions, but that should be ok.

 

The name calling that has been flung around here is dumb, but way better than it has in been the past. There really hasn't been any bad personal attacks since the last time someone was banned.

[a700hitter]

I don't think there is a poster here who dislikes kimmi even though half of them disagree with her much of the time. I hope the feeling is mutual for her. I don't think she feels attacked on this site, and she definitely doesn't need anyone to defend her or speak for her.

[User Name]

I think Kimmi is great. She brings a different perspective to the board. I also like that she doesn't back down. I don't always agree with her opinions, but that should be ok.

 

The name calling that has been flung around here is dumb, but way better than it has in been the past. There really hasn't been any bad personal attacks since the last time someone was banned.

 

"He who shall not be named"

[mvp 78]

suns

[jung]

Kimmi is right....BC was not fired. But as I stated earlier that was a set up and we should at least credit BC for seeing it for what it was. Henry was going to leave that firing to DD or possibly Kennedy after some appropriate time had passed and BC knew it. He had no real place there....especially with Larry gone and he knew that too.

 

We can't "Really" say BC's firing was premature. We could say that BC "jumped the gun" in deciding to cut the umbilical cord so soon after DD was hired. But I really don't think he did nor do I think it mattered.

 

IMO, BC will have a job in baseball again. He has the one thing that people do value.....contacts.....he now has a working relationship of a sort with the other baseball execs. Now part of the reason they will take his calls is probably tied to having been fleeced by the Cards. But fine. At least he has their phone numbers and they will pick up the phone for him.

 

I just don't think he will land something like a Pres Baseball Ops job (clearly what he would want next) unless it is with a very very small market franchise..... a team that simply can't make the kinds of funds he seems to have a problem understanding how to use effectively available to him. Some team that really can value BC's contacts around baseball without being as concerned that he will spend a fortune on potential assets that would be considered highly speculative at best. That would not resolve the issue of getting fleeced in trades though. Even a GM job would likely be with a team that had a very strong Pres Baseball Ops overseeing his activities.

Edited December 31, 2015 by jung

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think there is a poster here who dislikes kimmi even though half of them disagree with her much of the time. I hope the feeling is mutual for her. I don't think she feels attacked on this site, and she definitely doesn't need anyone to defend her or speak for her.

 

She also has about 4,200 posts since joining in January so I would hazard a guess she generally enjoys posting here.

[Spudboy]

suns

 

I was not active when Suns was banned. I never understood the hate that that kid received.

 

Someday I hope to know what happened.

[Elktonnick]

Kimmi is right....BC was not fired. But as I stated earlier that was a set up and we should at least credit BC for seeing it for what it was. Henry was going to leave that firing to DD or possibly Kennedy after some appropriate time had passed and BC knew it. He had no real place there....especially with Larry gone and he knew that too.

 

We can't "Really" say BC's firing was premature. We could say that BC "jumped the gun" in deciding to cut the umbilical cord so soon after DD was hired. But I really don't think he did nor do I think it mattered.

 

IMO, BC will have a job in baseball again. He has the one thing that people do value.....contacts.....he now has a working relationship of a sort with the other baseball execs. Now part of the reason they will take his calls is probably tied to having been fleeced by the Cards. But fine. At least he has their phone numbers and they will pick up the phone for him.

 

I just don't think he will land something like a Pres Baseball Ops job (clearly what he would want next) unless it is with a very very small market franchise..... a team that simply can't make the kinds of funds he seems to have a problem understanding how to use effectively available to him. Some team that really can value BC's contacts around baseball without being as concerned that he will spend a fortune on potential assets that would be considered highly speculative at best. That would not resolve the issue of getting fleeced in trades though. Even a GM job would likely be with a team that had a very strong Pres Baseball Ops overseeing his activities.

 

There is a distinction between being fired from an organization and being fired from a position but remaining with the organization. The Japanese do this. We do it too especially in government where civil service rules make it extremely difficult to remove people from the payroll. We find a position where the employee will have less responsibility. Some may use the term demotion but the person was fired from their previous position.

 

This is what happened to Ben. He was fired from his previous position which was re titled. Ben couldn't take the humiliation of accepting a job with less responsibility so he left. Henry may have foreseen this but it really doesn't matter the effect is the same.

 

Of course Ben will find another job in baseball. If he swallows his pride he'll find a job sooner rather then later. Ben is qualified for many jobs in baseball. I agree with you, however, that being the President of all baseball operations, the nbr1 baseball job in a franchise, just isn't one of them.

[mvp 78]

Was Larry the president prior to DUMBrowski?

[User Name]

Was Larry the president prior to DUMBrowski?

 

He was. And he had pretty much the exact same power that DD does. BC resigned because they assured him he would be given more free will over baseball ops, by hiring a president with a similar mindset, but hired another POBO with a plan of his own and a much different approach. They promised him he would be part of the search for a new president, but hired DD out of the blue, and he was blindsided.

 

Ben Cherington stated this himself.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/46295/red-sox-owners-ben-cherington-differ-on-dave-dombrowski-timeline

 

I don't understand why some of the people here want to make all of this stuff up about the inner workings of the organization, when the facts are present and straight out of the horse's mouth. BC never had full power over baseball ops, just like Theo didn't, because LL was running the show.

 

Stick to the facts, stop making stuff up please.

[jung]

Here he would have been dropped so far down the totem pole that he would have had to look up to find the bottom. Would not have been surprised if they dropped him all the way to Dir. of Player Personnel which does not sound like much. But where you were one step away from the defacto Pres Baseball Ops and maybe considering yourself the heir apparent to that job once JH separated out Larry's role as he should have and eventually did, that Dir of Player Personnel job represents a heck of a drop.

 

DD gets the aforementioned Larry role and becomes Pres of Baseball Ops in fact. Kennedy takes the other half of Larry's job and becomes Pres of the Organization. It was rumored right from the start that DD would hire his own GM and the max role BC is looking at is now at least two rungs below where he had hoped to go. That would have been a tough tough thing for anybody to swallow I would wager. The end would have been IMO far worse for BC if he had hung on in that situation. Ultimately he could easily have been driven so far down the totem pole as to be invisible and still could have found himself fired this time from a much less visible position. Remember how long BC has been with this one club..... Now he is backed that far down the ladder doing stuff he was doing 6-7 years before. In spite of my obvious disappointment in BC as Red Sox GM, this was the smart move for him to make. He has left open much more opportunity for himself doing this than if he had hung on in Boston IMO.

[Elktonnick]

Was Larry the president prior to DUMBrowski?

 

Dombrowski is President of Baseball Operations. If you check the Red Sox front office website it lists the following:

 

 

Principal OwnerJohn W. HenryChairmanThomas C. WernerPresident/Chief Executive OfficerLarry Lucchino

 

EXECUTIVE/FRONT OFFICE

Executive Vice President/Chief Operating OfficerSam KennedyExecutive Vice President/Business AffairsJonathan GilulaExecutive Vice President & Senior Advisor to the President/CEOCharles SteinbergExecutive Vice President/Corporate Strategy & General CounselEd WeissFinancial Advisor to the President/CEOJeff WhiteSenior Advisor/Baseball ProjectsJeremy KapsteinSenior Advisor/Strategic PlanningMichael PorterVice President/Business DevelopmentTim ZueVice President/Corporate Strategy and Special CounselDavid BeestonSenior Business Development ManagerKurt ZwaldRed Sox Rewards CoordinatorAnne Marie RoweSpecial Assistant to the Principal OwnerSylvia MoonSpecial Assistant to the President/CEODan Rea IIISpecial Assistant to EVP/COOStephen KelleyExecutive Assistant to the President/CEOFay ScheerExecutive AssistantsCaitlin O'Reilly, Barbara Bianucci, Jackie Dempsey, Claire Durant, Caitlin SullivanExecutive Personal AssistantBrienne Hart

BASEBALL OPERATIONS

President of Baseball OperationsDave DombrowskiSenior Vice President/General ManagerMike Hazen

 

so you can see that on paper Larry has the same job he had before.

[Elktonnick]

Here he would have been dropped so far down the totem pole that he would have had to look up to find the bottom. Would not have been surprised if they dropped him all the way to Dir. of Player Personnel which does not sound like much. But where you were one step away from the defacto Pres Baseball Ops and maybe considering yourself the heir apparent to that job once JH separated out Larry's role as he should have and eventually did, that Dir of Player Personnel job represents a heck of a drop.

 

DD gets the aforementioned Larry role and becomes Pres of Baseball Ops in fact. Kennedy takes the other half of Larry's job and becomes Pres of the Organization. It was rumored right from the start that DD would hire his own GM and the max role BC is looking at is now at least two rungs below where he had hoped to go. That would have been a tough tough thing for anybody to swallow I would wager. The end would have been IMO far worse for BC if he had hung on in that situation. Ultimately he could easily have been driven so far down the totem pole as to be invisible and still could have found himself fired this time from a much less visible position. Remember how long BC has been with this one club..... Now he is backed that far down the ladder doing stuff he was doing 6-7 years before. In spite of my obvious disappointment in BC as Red Sox GM, this was the smart move for him to make. He has left open much more opportunity for himself doing this than if he had hung on in Boston IMO.

 

Leaving Boston was probably Ben's right move and one I may have done myself if I had been in his position. But make no mistake about it, Ben was fired. Henry just did it in such a devious way that it gave him "plausible denial" as we used to say.

[jung]

Once again JH chooses expediency. Larry gets to keep his title without having a functional role attached to it. What the heck is the CEO/Pres of the Sox doing mucking about with the Pawsox? Not only does Larry not have a functional role directly with the Sox, he no longer has a contract as JH let it expire at the end of the 2015 season. While there are all sorts of accepted formula for personnel management and the cutting the cord part of it, I have never seen anybody take a circuitous route more often than JH. I suspect the plan for Larry is for him to just fad into the sunset......eventually....whenever the heck that is!

 

Remember we already know that Kennedy and DD report directly to JH. Where does that leave Larry functionally?

[Elktonnick]

Once again JH chooses expediency. Larry gets to keep his title without having a functional role attached to it. What the heck is the CEO/Pres of the Sox doing mucking about with the Pawsox? Not only does Larry not have a functional role directly with the Sox, he no longer has a contract as JH let it expire at the end of the 2015 season. While there are all sorts of accepted formula for personnel management and the cutting the cord part of it, I have never seen anybody take a circuitous route more often than JH. I suspect the plan for Larry is for him to just fad into the sunset......eventually....whenever the heck that is!

 

Remember we already know that Kennedy and DD report directly to JH. Where does that leave Larry functionally?

 

With a title! Sort like being President of Italy. Gets to live in big house, in Larry case he gets to watch games from the executive suite.

[Elktonnick]

In 2013 Alex Speier wrote a lengthy piece on Red Sox ownership

which is a fascinating read. Here is a lengthy excerpt.

 

 

 

HOW DECISIONS ARE MADE: WHERE ARE THE OWNERS INVOLVED?

 

At an operational level, one can characterize six different levels of decisions in the organization, some of which require ownership input, some of which do not.

 

First level: A decision that can be implemented without further discussion with bosses. For instance, the hiring of someone in ticket sales won't be vetted through Henry or Werner. The Red Sox can implement such a hire without ownership involvement.

 

Second level: A decision about which owners are told as a kind of fait accompli. For instance, if there is a sponsorship agreement negotiated by Kennedy, he will tell Henry, Werner and Lucchino, though their input won't be necessary.

 

Third level: A decision about which owners are informed and given a heads-up before it is finalized. A lower-level trade, for instance, might feature an opportunity for ownership consent and input before it is finalized. Still, this might be an area of limited input.

 

Fourth level: A decision on which the owners' opinions will be sought at the outset before moving forward. For instance, ticket pricing decisions necessarily will involve ownership feedback at the outset (rather than a rubber stamp) before moving forward.

 

Fifth level: Collaboration and involvement from the outset. The trade between the Red Sox and Dodgers last August represented a notable and significant demonstration of such a case. The conversation started between Dodgers president Stan Kasten and his Red Sox peer, Lucchino. From the outset, and throughout the entirety of the deal, it necessarily involved not only the entire baseball operations department but also the full attention of the ownership group.

 

Sixth level: Ownership suggest or initiates a program for the club and the front office executes it. Often times, these ownership-directed programs (in the case of the Red Sox) will relate to charitable undertakings, such as Werner's Run to Home Base. The instances of ownership-mandated baseball operations decisions are virtually non-existent. Indeed, the instances of owner fiat are virtually non-existent, in part because of the philosophical commitment on the part of the organization to collaboration and consensus-building.

 

A few years ago, the book "The Wisdom of Crowds" circulated through all levels of the organization to underscore the notion that widespread, rigorous debate among many people with different perspectives yields demonstrably better outcomes than decisions made with a narrower input base. Virtually all of the decision-makers in the Sox -- from the owners to the staffers in various departments -- embrace that vision.

 

And so, there are rarely mandates. There are ideas put forth, but there's an expectation that people will be open to changing their mind based on dialogue with colleagues. Perhaps that explains why there are rarely dictates emanating from Henry or Werner. The emphasis is more often on dialogue than commands.

 

Lucchino characterized the function of the Red Sox ownership group as one of offering "advice and consent," though with the caveat that such a default role on questions facing the organization "does not preclude the occasional suggestion or question or exploration." It's a model that the owners view as having been the basis for considerable success over the first eight seasons of their tenure, and one that they believe can continue to work going forward.

[Bellhorn04]

Personally I have no gripes at all with John Henry. I'm quite fond of him, in fact. My reasoning is simple. Since he bought the team we have 3 championships and he continues to spend a shitload on the team. Plenty of mistakes have been made, sure. For me the mistakes are more than made up for by the aforementioned.