Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[Behindenemylines]

Renteria

Crawford

Hanley

Panda

 

This is 4 high-profile free agent signings in 11 years that have been immediate disasters. Can anyone make any sense of why these players have crashed so spectacularly in Boston? Is it that tough of a place to play?

 

Also, is it fair to say that the FO failed to learn anything from history when they signed Hanley and Panda?

 

Many said Renteria would not survive in Boston. There is a big difference playing in Tampa then in Boston and we saw a never comfortable Crawford. Hanley was a DH that got hurt playing LF. An Panda shines in October and there will be no October this year.

[Bellhorn04]

The Red Sox didn't sign Panda based on his numbers in 39 postseason games. His regular season OPS with SF was .811.

 

The real story with Panda is his steady decline. His OPS+ for the last 5 years in order: 155, 123, 116, 111, 80.

[sk7326]

Jonah Keri writing at the time had the most sensible take about the time - which I will paraphrase some since I can't find the link ...

 

Ben's legacy is complicated, because there is a lot of losing - but there was a championship. Basically, it's three strikeouts and a grand slam. Also, four years that simultaneously produced a title, leaves the consensus top farm system in baseball - and one which has produced (if August is any evidence) a lot of guys who should be at least decent regular to much more than that (so it's not just speculation). He was also able to keep a lot of the staff and scouting which kept that party going - the smart people did not leave here like they did in Atlanta under Frank Wren (and then all immediately came back once he got canned). Stand that up in contrast to Seattle, which fired its GM, who both presided over less success and left less potential.

 

Dombrowski has considerable work to do with the pitching staff obviously (the bullpen and top of the rotation). The cupboard is well stocked for one of these sort of management changes. Ownership is ultimately the key - if they value the development machine, it will persist because Dombrowski can surely do that. He has shown he can help the major league roster without hurting that much - which will be the big value add.

[sk7326]

To date it's been a bad acquistion. At the time of the signing, it was not, no matter how many times you say otherwise.

 

It was a decent acquisition. Not well priced, but 3B was so bad that a decent one was a huge improvement. The issue (if there one) was that the upside was not that great. Ramirez as a 3B had (and still has) a lot more ceiling.

[Bellhorn04]

It was a decent acquisition. Not well priced, but 3B was so bad that a decent one was a huge improvement. The issue (if there one) was that the upside was not that great. Ramirez as a 3B had (and still has) a lot more ceiling.

 

You're right - signing Hanley to play 3B would have made much more sense. By signing the two of them they seem to have overreacted to last year's problems scoring runs.

[a700hitter]

Many said Renteria would not survive in Boston. There is a big difference playing in Tampa then in Boston and we saw a never comfortable Crawford. Hanley was a DH that got hurt playing LF. An Panda shines in October and there will be no October this year.

 

His manager LaRussa questioned the move. Plus, Renteria was never a big star.

Edited September 6, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

Nothing is disastrous when you have the resources of the Red Sox. His signing was not helpful to the team.

 

His signing, in hindsight, has not been helpful to the team so far. He might not have been worth his contract value, but he definitely should have been helpful to the team. Even those against the signing recognize that he should have been a fair improvement over Middlebrooks.

 

Despite the resources that the Sox have, signings can certainly be disastrous.

[Kimmi]

I think that signing him made much more sense than The Ramirez signing. We needed a third baseman. It wasn't going to be Wil Middlebrows for sure. In hindsight maybe it does look like other options would have been better but he isn't the reason this team has had such a miserable year. Could we have done better - probably but who knew.

 

There is no way anyone could have foreseen Panda being the negative WAR player that he was the first half. People can dislike the contract all they want, but at least acknowledge that there was some good rationale behind signing him, and it wasn't just his postseason numbers.

[Kimmi]

Jonah Keri writing at the time had the most sensible take about the time - which I will paraphrase some since I can't find the link ...

 

Ben's legacy is complicated, because there is a lot of losing - but there was a championship. Basically, it's three strikeouts and a grand slam. Also, four years that simultaneously produced a title, leaves the consensus top farm system in baseball - and one which has produced (if August is any evidence) a lot of guys who should be at least decent regular to much more than that (so it's not just speculation). He was also able to keep a lot of the staff and scouting which kept that party going - the smart people did not leave here like they did in Atlanta under Frank Wren (and then all immediately came back once he got canned). Stand that up in contrast to Seattle, which fired its GM, who both presided over less success and left less potential.

 

Dombrowski has considerable work to do with the pitching staff obviously (the bullpen and top of the rotation). The cupboard is well stocked for one of these sort of management changes. Ownership is ultimately the key - if they value the development machine, it will persist because Dombrowski can surely do that. He has shown he can help the major league roster without hurting that much - which will be the big value add.

 

I read this tweet earlier this morning, which IMO is spot on:

 

Red Sox Stats ‏@redsoxstats 12 hrs12 hours ago

 

At some point next year we are probably going to be like, wow we dumped Cherington as he was on the goal line of building a monster.

 

Okay, maybe "monster" is going a bit too far, but what many people fail to realize is that Ben has set this team up well for the foreseeable future. If Dombrowski makes the right 2 or 3 key moves this offseason, we should be in very good shape for several years.

 

As I've said before, his long term plan is coming to fruition. And while the last two years have been misses, he managed to bring us a World Series Championship while "rebuilding". Go figure.

[a700hitter]

His signing, in hindsight, has not been helpful to the team so far. He might not have been worth his contract value, but he definitely should have been helpful to the team. Even those against the signing recognize that he should have been a fair improvement over Middlebrooks.

 

Despite the resources that the Sox have, signings can certainly be disastrous.

 

But it hasn't been helpful. They are a better team without him. They would have been better off handing the 3B job to Holt. The FO gets paid a lot of money and they supposedly have the expertise to make judgements to make the team better, not just crunching some numbers and using that as a basis for moves that "should" make us better. Panda is too fat, not a good thing as he gets older and his deterioration against lefties had already become alarming. Holt was just starting out as a full time player and he was not going to do much worse than Panda and that would have saved over $90 million to spend on pitching. Panda was a terrible move.

 

A. Holt would have been okay there and

B. The move became redundant and pointless once Hanley was signed.

C. It would have provided $90+ million to spend on pitching where we had a critical need.

Edited September 6, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

But it hasn't been helpful. They are a better team without him. They would have been better off handing the 3B job to Holt. The FO gets paid a lot of money and they supposedly have the expertise to make judgements to make the team better, not just crunching some numbers and using that as a basis for moves that "should" make us better. Panda is too fat, not a good thing as he gets older and his deterioration against lefties had already become alarming. Holt was just starting out as a full time player and he was not going to do much worse than Panda and that would have saved over $90 million to spend on pitching. Panda was a terrible move.

 

A. Holt would have been okay there and

B. The move became redundant and pointless once Hanley was signed.

C. It would have provided $90+ million to spend on pitching where we had a critical need.

 

As I said before, this is all in hindsight. In hindsight, I don't really disagree with anything in this post. If Panda and Hanley had performed up to expectations, however, this would be a completely different conversation.

[Bellhorn04]

I read this tweet earlier this morning, which IMO is spot on:

 

Red Sox Stats ‏@redsoxstats 12 hrs12 hours ago

 

At some point next year we are probably going to be like, wow we dumped Cherington as he was on the goal line of building a monster.

 

Okay, maybe "monster" is going a bit too far, but what many people fail to realize is that Ben has set this team up well for the foreseeable future. If Dombrowski makes the right 2 or 3 key moves this offseason, we should be in very good shape for several years.

 

As I've said before, his long term plan is coming to fruition. And while the last two years have been misses, he managed to bring us a World Series Championship while "rebuilding". Go figure.

 

I am such a middleman, because I see your point of view but I also see 700hitter's.

 

Ben has done some very good things and I'm sorry he lost his job. But I can't dismiss the fact that this is the first time in 50 years we have had 3 seasons out of 4 that were this bad, and with one of the highest payrolls. The fact that we won a championship in the midst of those years is great, and also kind of bizarre.

 

What ultimately did him in, maybe, was the duality of the team's approach - rebuilding and dishing out huge contracts at the same time.

[a700hitter]

We never looked back and longed for Duke, and if the team wins three more Championships in the next 10 years, we will not long for Ben either. We might long for Ben if DD finishes last the next 4 years, but not other than that.

[mvp 78]

Hard to build a monster with no pitching.

[Kimmi]

I am such a middleman, because I see your point of view but I also see 700hitter's.

 

Ben has done some very good things and I'm sorry he lost his job. But I can't dismiss the fact that this is the first time in 50 years we have had 3 seasons out of 4 that were this bad, and with one of the highest payrolls. The fact that we won a championship in the midst of those years is great, and also kind of bizarre.

 

What ultimately did him in, maybe, was the duality of the team's approach - rebuilding and dishing out huge contracts at the same time.

 

Well I keep saying, and I honestly believe, that Cherington did not have the luxury of going into full "rebuild" mode. He had to try to keep the team competiive while rebuilding - not an easy task. To win a WS while "rebuilding" is actually quite an accomplishment.

 

As far as the "huge contracts" are concerned, there were none issued until this past offseason. Really, the only one I consider huge is Panda's. Even with that, things should not have gone so badly this season.

[mvp 78]

Porcello's contract is pretty huge.

[Kimmi]

We never looked back and longed for Duke, and if the team wins three more Championships in the next 10 years, we will not long for Ben either. We might long for Ben if DD finishes last the next 4 years, but not other than that.

 

I likely won't be longing for Cherington, but I don't think he gets enough credit for the things he has done well. OTOH, if Dombrowski dismantles the farm in the next couple of years, then I just might be.

[Kimmi]

Porcello's contract is pretty huge.

 

No, it's not. It only seems huge right now because he pitched so poorly this year.

[Bellhorn04]

We never looked back and longed for Duke, and if the team wins three more Championships in the next 10 years, we will not long for Ben either. We might long for Ben if DD finishes last the next 4 years, but not other than that.

 

And some people don't even think Theo was a very good GM.

[mvp 78]

No, it's not. It only seems huge right now because he pitched so poorly this year.

 

"Huge" and "bad" aren't the same thing. Any contract over 20M per is huge to me.

[Bellhorn04]

No, it's not. It only seems huge right now because he pitched so poorly this year.

 

It's the same size as Panda's if you roll the 5 years together.

[reYoukilis]

Well I keep saying, and I honestly believe, that Cherington did not have the luxury of going into full "rebuild" mode. He had to try to keep the team competiive while rebuilding - not an easy task. To win a WS while "rebuilding" is actually quite an accomplishment..

True but unfortunate. Having money is supposed to be a luxury and allow a team to have an advantage not a burden of having to be competitive and rebuild at the same time. Having that money would be good for that one guy to put us over the top.

[a700hitter]

And some people don't even think Theo was a very good GM.

 

Ben had me longing for Theo.

[a700hitter]

Well I keep saying, and I honestly believe, that Cherington did not have the luxury of going into full "rebuild" mode. He had to try to keep the team competiive while rebuilding - not an easy task. To win a WS while "rebuilding" is actually quite an accomplishment.

 

He had the luxury of the second largest payroll in the league. He didn't need to do a full rebuild.

[Kimmi]

"Huge" and "bad" aren't the same thing. Any contract over 20M per is huge to me.

 

Fair enough. "Huge" is a subjective term. To me, it's more about the years than it is about the dollars.

[Kimmi]

It's the same size as Panda's if you roll the 5 years together.

 

Not quite the same situation. With Porcello, you're locking up a young player into what should be his prime years, before he can reach free agency. It's similar to locking up Pedroia.

[Dojji]

And some people don't even think Theo was a very good GM.

 

Theo was a competent if overrated general manager and I'd love him back if I'm being honest.

[Kimmi]

He had the luxury of the second largest payroll in the league. He didn't need to do a full rebuild.

 

I really wish I was here to see what kinds of things you posted about Theo when he was here.

[Kimmi]

Theo was a competent if overrated general manager and I'd love him back if I'm being honest.

 

He's a baseball GM god. It's impossible to overrate him.

[mvp 78]

I really wish I was here to see what kinds of things you posted about Theo when he was here.

 

He lauded over him after the Crawford signing.