JBJ: Part of the 2016 Sox plan or do you trade him to rebuild the pitching?

[cp176]

I'm with you. I know it will leave a hole in the rotation, but he's proven to be too inconsistent in both performance and health to rely on year-in and year-out. When he's healthy and on, he's incredible. But that's not something you can count on. So I'd look to deal him. Heck, I was saying they should have dealt him this year before he got hurt. He was pitching very well and his contract was looking good. And then......boom. Down again.

 

I'm ready to turn the page - No Buccholtz - No Kelly

 

 

time for a fresh start

[Kimmi]

My point is if there was a need to trade him now what for ( why ) and how is this of benifit to the Sox going forward?

 

I would like to have seen De Aza back next year as the #4 OF.

 

Whatever.

 

And yes, I am aware of Brock Holt.

 

The way I see it is, there really isn't going to be any playing time for De Aza the rest of the way out. The Sox seem to be committed to the 3 youngsters, though granted, Castillo isn't really that young. There's no point in having De Aza rot on the bench for the remainder of the season. The Sox might as well get something for him, even if the piece does not seem at all significant.

 

I agree with you about having De Aza back next year as the 4th OF. As MVP said, he's a free agent, so the Sox can still sign him in the offseason if they choose to.

[Kimmi]

I'm ready to turn the page - No Buccholtz - No Kelly

 

 

time for a fresh start

 

The Sox could end up trading one or two of those guys if the price is right, but I wouldn't trade them just for the sake of getting rid of them. If there is no Buchholz or Kelly, and our rotation is #1 guy, #2 guy (provided Dombrowskin picks up 2 top pitchers), Eduardo, Porcello, Owens or Miley. That leaves very little depth. I know I keep saying it, but the more depth, the better. If Kelly continues to pitch like he has recently, Buchholz pitches like the good Buchholz, and Owens continues to develop in AAA, that is quality depth, not just quantitiy.

[Kimmi]

Speaking of the Mighty Joe Kelly, since being recalled (8 games), his ERA is 3.74 and his OPS against is .791.

 

Since August 1 (6 games), his ERA is 2.68 and his OPS against is .700.

 

And in the last 4 games, his ERA is 1.35 and his OPS against is .616.

 

All small samples, of course, but we can certainly hope that he has finally figured out how to work his stuff.

[SoxHop]

Speaking of the Mighty Joe Kelly, since being recalled (8 games), his ERA is 3.74 and his OPS against is .791.

 

Since August 1 (6 games), his ERA is 2.68 and his OPS against is .700.

 

And in the last 4 games, his ERA is 1.35 and his OPS against is .616.

 

All small samples, of course, but we can certainly hope that he has finally figured out how to work his stuff.

 

A lot of the stuff you were calling all year is starting to materialize......... just way too late........

 

I bet Cherrington is sitting home watching the games going bonkers thinking "why the heck didn't these guys do this months before".

 

Last I saw Napoli is hitting over 300 in Texas.........

[reYoukilis]

A lot of the stuff you were calling all year is starting to materialize......... just way too late........

 

I bet Cherrington is sitting home watching the games going bonkers thinking "why the heck didn't these guys do this months before".

 

Last I saw Napoli is hitting over 300 in Texas.........

I get a little confused about the thinking that went on post WS. When Cherington traded Beckett, Gonzales and Crawford it was supposed to be a rebuild with prospects. Sure we won a WS but that doesn't change the fact that building a team with.prospects might not bring instant perfection, same with any player brought in new. Any GM deserves two years, at least to see if his plan would come to something. Thing is though is that some of his moves suggest to me that he was losing faith in his plan too. Getting Hanley Ramirez seems to be a show of disbelief that JBJ would come around. Or at least strong insurance in case.

[SoxHop]

I get a little confused about the thinking that went on post WS. When Cherington traded Beckett, Gonzales and Crawford it was supposed to be a rebuild with prospects. Sure we won a WS but that doesn't change the fact that building a team with.prospects might not bring instant perfection, same with any player brought in new. Any GM deserves two years, at least to see if his plan would come to something. Thing is though is that some of his moves suggest to me that he was losing faith in his plan too. Getting Hanley Ramirez seems to be a show of disbelief that JBJ would come around. Or at least strong insurance in case.

 

It's hard to argue the Hanley signing...........

 

If sinking for a couple years and getting some playing time for players most gave up on......JBJ.........

 

Then it could be as close as next year we are in the mix............ with a couple of acquisitions..........

 

it isn't easy predicting when a rookie is going to catch on no matter how bad ass he is................

 

probably easy to sell low on rookies not performing.................... someone kept a good base of ultimate badasses........

[sk7326]

I get a little confused about the thinking that went on post WS. When Cherington traded Beckett, Gonzales and Crawford it was supposed to be a rebuild with prospects. Sure we won a WS but that doesn't change the fact that building a team with.prospects might not bring instant perfection, same with any player brought in new. Any GM deserves two years, at least to see if his plan would come to something. Thing is though is that some of his moves suggest to me that he was losing faith in his plan too. Getting Hanley Ramirez seems to be a show of disbelief that JBJ would come around. Or at least strong insurance in case.

 

I don't know about that. When they dealt those guys is was to not pay them - and to answer fan anger for a horrible season. (as it has turned out Gonzalez is a good player - maybe not $27M a year good, but good). Cherington got a couple of decent prospects for them, but it was an ownership salary dump.

 

I think the franchise wanted to go with shorter contracts, basically. As it turned out they won the World Series because of uncommonly good seasons by Victorino and Uehara, and their best players actually playing baseball games (which was sorely missing in 2012). I think the management has been unrealistic about prospects, I agree - to a point. The idea was that the strong veteran core could maintain while the kiddies learned on the job. That part largely failed - mostly because Victorino broke down, and everything they tried at 3B failed, and their catcher situation went from a good one to a dumpster fire. Getting Ramirez and Sandoval smelled a lot like PR again - the team was a bad offensive team, sign the top two position FAs and watch the magic happen. It was not a crazy plan, but neither has hit. In particular, I would have preferred them simply signing Ramirez to play 3B.

[a700hitter]

I don't know about that. When they dealt those guys is was to not pay them - and to answer fan anger for a horrible season. (as it has turned out Gonzalez is a good player - maybe not $27M a year good, but good). Cherington got a couple of decent prospects for them, but it was an ownership salary dump.

 

I think the franchise wanted to go with shorter contracts, basically. As it turned out they won the World Series because of uncommonly good seasons by Victorino and Uehara, and their best players actually playing baseball games (which was sorely missing in 2012). I think the management has been unrealistic about prospects, I agree - to a point. The idea was that the strong veteran core could maintain while the kiddies learned on the job. That part largely failed - mostly because Victorino broke down, and everything they tried at 3B failed, and their catcher situation went from a good one to a dumpster fire. Getting Ramirez and Sandoval smelled a lot like PR again - the team was a bad offensive team, sign the top two position FAs and watch the magic happen. It was not a crazy plan, but neither has hit. In particular, I would have preferred them simply signing Ramirez to play 3B.

Maybe the schizo FO should have figured some of this out before they traded one of the big stars of the game (Rizzo) to get those overpriced players that they so desperately dumped.

 

Edit: Essentially, we trade Rizzo for Miley. Yuk.

[Kimmi]

I get a little confused about the thinking that went on post WS. When Cherington traded Beckett, Gonzales and Crawford it was supposed to be a rebuild with prospects. Sure we won a WS but that doesn't change the fact that building a team with.prospects might not bring instant perfection, same with any player brought in new. Any GM deserves two years, at least to see if his plan would come to something. Thing is though is that some of his moves suggest to me that he was losing faith in his plan too. Getting Hanley Ramirez seems to be a show of disbelief that JBJ would come around. Or at least strong insurance in case.

 

The thing is, I don't think the Boston fanbase would go for a complete rebuild, like Theo did in Chicago. Ben had to rebuild while at the same time trying to keep the team competitive. He has done that (or tried to) for the most part with shorter terms contracts @ more money per year. The guys signed in 2013 had near perfect synergy. For whatever reason, they lost it in 2014.

 

For 2015, Ben focused on bringing in guys to address probably our biggest weakness in 2014. Good plan that didn't work.

 

However, the bright side is that, in the meantime, the solid core of young players has developed to the point where they should be very good for years to come.

[a700hitter]

The thing is, I don't think the Boston fanbase would go for a complete rebuild, like Theo did in Chicago. Ben had to rebuild while at the same time trying to keep the team competitive. He has done that (or tried to) for the most part with shorter terms contracts @ more money per year. The guys signed in 2013 had near perfect synergy. For whatever reason, they lost it in 2014.

 

For 2015, Ben focused on bringing in guys to address probably our biggest weakness in 2014. Good plan that didn't work.

 

However, the bright side is that, in the meantime, the solid core of young players has developed to the point where they should be very good for years to come.

Ahem, the Red Sox fans are still packing 37,000 fans a game into Fenway Park in the third season of last place teams out of the last 4 years. That's pretty patient. The Cubs lost fans prior to this season during Theo's rebuild.

[Kimmi]

Ahem, the Red Sox fans are still packing 37,000 fans a game into Fenway Park in the third season of last place teams out of the last 4 years. That's pretty patient. The Cubs lost fans prior to this season during Theo's rebuild.

 

But having a team that is supposed to contend is different than having a team that is in full rebuild mode and really has no shot from the outset. Theo knew that things would be bad for the Cubs for a few years and he told the fans to be patient. I'm not so sure that would fly here. Even with the shake up of bringing in Dombrowski, the intent is to have this team contending next season, not to go into rebuild mode for a few years.

[sk7326]

Maybe the schizo FO should have figured some of this out before they traded one of the big stars of the game (Rizzo) to get those overpriced players that they so desperately dumped.

 

Edit: Essentially, we trade Rizzo for Miley. Yuk.

 

Rizzo for Gonzalez was a pretty solid deal at the time - the only time you can fairly evaluate a trade (of course Rizzo had a chance to be good, that's why the Padres dealt an elite hitter for him) ... (Rizzo had to be moved before he blossomed). But the pitchforks were out and so the deal that got the 2013 narrative going was made.

[jacksonianmarch]

sk, the Padres thought they had 2 future stars in Alonso and Rizzo, so they dealt Rizzo to get what they thought was an ace. Alonso ended up being a fringe big league 1b and Rizzo is turning into a generational talent

[a700hitter]

But having a team that is supposed to contend is different than having a team that is in full rebuild mode and really has no shot from the outset. Theo knew that things would be bad for the Cubs for a few years and he told the fans to be patient. I'm not so sure that would fly here. Even with the shake up of bringing in Dombrowski, the intent is to have this team contending next season, not to go into rebuild mode for a few years.

 

It was pretty obvious after April that this was a very bad team again, after finishing last the year before. Yet, the fans keep coming. The theory that Red Sox fans would not tolerate a rebuild is an unsupported theory. Their steadfast loyalty indicates otherwise.

[a700hitter]

But the pitchforks were out and so the deal that got the 2013 narrative going was made.

Especially, those fans eating the blue cotton candy. They tend to be the most demanding. It is not the fans fau!t. The FO has made lots of bad moves that are inconsistent and belie any cohesive strategy. Edited September 5, 2015 by a700hitter

[Bellhorn04]

It was pretty obvious after April that this was a very bad team again, after finishing last the year before. Yet, the fans keep coming. The theory that Red Sox fans would not tolerate a rebuild is an unsupported theory. Their steadfast loyalty indicates otherwise.

 

What about TV ratings though? Isn't that the main reason they're replacing Orsillo?

[mvp 78]

What about TV ratings though? Isn't that the main reason they're replacing Orsillo?

 

Nah, Don wanted a larger contract (deservedly), NESN wanted to go a cheaper route.

[sk7326]

Especially, those fans eating the blue cotton cand. They tend to be the most demanding. It is not the fans fau!t. The FO has made lots of bad moves that are inconsistent and belie any cohesive strategy.

 

How are those connected? The post addressed the Gonzalez trade ... I read posts elsewhere about the trade which saved the season, which is a bit silly - the trade might have helped a little. Good players getting healthy help more.

 

Management has a lot to answer for the last two seasons. The fans are spectacularly entitled. Both can exist at the same time. And yes, management really should not worry about what the fans think largely.

[Kimmi]

It was pretty obvious after April that this was a very bad team again, after finishing last the year before. Yet, the fans keep coming. The theory that Red Sox fans would not tolerate a rebuild is an unsupported theory. Their steadfast loyalty indicates otherwise.

 

First off, the Sox were still reasonably in contention at the ASB. Secondly, you think the team doesn't lose any fans when they're losing? Just take a look at the responses, or lack thereof, on this board. How many posters have said that they don't watch the games anymore? Thirdly, how many posts have we read stating that there is no reason why a team with this type of budget should be operating like a small market team? There is no reason why a team with this type of budget should finish in last place?

 

Boston's fans are more rabid and loyal than those of most teams. Unfortunately, they have recently become entitled. Whether people like to hear that or not, it's true. I can't see them being understanding and accepting of the idea of a complete rebuild.

 

Personally, I, myself, wouldn't like the idea of a complete rebuild. I agree that with the resources that this team has, there is no reason to have to go into a 3 or 4 year rebuild period. They should be able to contend every year, even when they are developing some kids.

[Spudboy]

It was pretty obvious after April that this was a very bad team again, after finishing last the year before. Yet, the fans keep coming. The theory that Red Sox fans would not tolerate a rebuild is an unsupported theory. Their steadfast loyalty indicates otherwise.

 

Indeed.

 

Some may say apples and oranges. The Celtics are in a protracted rebuild and the fans are still there every night.

 

I've said this many times here. To garner fan loyalty in this market a franchise must appear as though it is trying to win and go for a championship.

 

There are too many lifers among Sox fans for a mass exodus to occur.

[a700hitter]

It is the large loyal fanbase which provide this franchise with its wealth of resources and gives it a huge competitive advantage. To blame that aspect which gives you the advantage for the FO mismanagement is patently absurd.

[Kimmi]

Indeed.

 

Some may say apples and oranges. The Celtics are in a protracted rebuild and the fans are still there every night.

 

I've said this many times here. To garner fan loyalty in this market a franchise must appear as though it is trying to win and go for a championship.

 

There are too many lifers among Sox fans for a mass exodus to occur.

 

The lifers are not the ones the FO has to worry about. For the most part, they will be here no matter what. It's the more casual fans that would bail. Again, you can judge by what happens on Red Sox forums, and not just this one, when the team is going bad. There are many fans who only watch when the team is winning.

[a700hitter]

The lifers are not the ones the FO has to worry about. For the most part, they will be here no matter what. It's the more casual fans that would bail. Again, you can judge by what happens on Red Sox forums, and not just this one, when the team is going bad. There are many fans who only watch when the team is winning.

 

It doesn't matter unless it hits the revenue stream, and it hasn't.

[Kimmi]

It doesn't matter unless it hits the revenue stream, and it hasn't.

 

I honestly don't follow the team's revenue, so I have no clue. But apparently, it has hit the NESN revenue stream.

[a700hitter]

I honestly don't follow the team's revenue, so I have no clue. But apparently, it has hit the NESN revenue stream.

 

They are blaming that on Orsillo. Lol! NESN's ratings have been in the toilet for years -- dating before the stretch of last place finishes.

[Bellhorn04]

They are blaming that on Orsillo. Lol! NESN's ratings have been in the toilet for years -- dating before the stretch of last place finishes.

 

If that's the case, maybe the continued passionate loyalty of the fanbase is a little overrated.

[a700hitter]

If that's the case, maybe the continued passionate loyalty of the fanbase is a little overrated.

 

I think it was at a " Fever Pitch" in the quest to win the first Championship. I think that was the attraction for the bandwagon fans. Some viewership was lost after that, but their fan following is solid -- the least of their problems.

 

 

Edit: Red Sox in the 2014 last place season finished 4th overall in revenue at $370 million behind only the Yankees, Dodgers and Championship Giants. That is up from $357 million in the 2013 Championship season.

Edited September 5, 2015 by a700hitter

[cp176]

I think it was at a " Fever Pitch" in the quest to win the first Championship. I think that was the attraction for the bandwagon fans. Some viewership was lost after that, but their fan following is solid -- the least of their problems.

 

 

Edit: Red Sox in the 2014 last place season finished 4th overall in revenue at $370 million behind only the Yankees, Dodgers and Championship Giants. That is up from $357 million in the 2013 Championship season.

 

With that being said, they raised ticket prices grossly as well. I won't be there until I like the product just a bit more but I don't think that they will miss me. For many people today, if you are in Boston, you catch a game whether you are a fan or not. It's is close to being a national monument I guess. A real red Sox fan to me tends to be a lifer.

[Behindenemylines]

It was pretty obvious after April that this was a very bad team again, after finishing last the year before. Yet, the fans keep coming. The theory that Red Sox fans would not tolerate a rebuild is an unsupported theory. Their steadfast loyalty indicates otherwise.

 

Watching the kids play is what is keeping the loyal Sox fans watching. Seeing the Betts, Bogaerts and Rodriguez play well gives you hope for the future. I don't mind the losing as much if you can see a rebuild with hope.