2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[cp176]

"As an aside, I really don't like Pablo or Hanley for different reasons. With Pablo, you're getting paid that much money and getting to live your dream and you can't even be bothered to keep in shape. He's also very prickly when asked any half-way probing questions. He's got some issues that really need looking at or he's going to blow his career. Hanley annoys me with the way he always seems to be half-assing everything. Always strolling around. He never looks like he is putting his full focus and energy into anything. Maybe it's just his languid style that gives off an un-fair perception, but I don't think so. "

 

These are interesting observations. I have gotten close to your point on Pablo myself. There is something strange going on there, maybe even dangerous but at least strange.

 

With Hanley I don't think it is unfair at all to look at his attitude as odd even for a contemporary professional athlete. Manny being Manny does not get into the same stratosphere of as odd as Hanley with his pendulum that swings all the way from goofy, half-assed nonsense that just is so disrespectful of the game and so many of its players and the way he immediately swings all the way from there to pouting, shutting it down and off for one of his in season vacations. Yet the players love Hanley mainly because the players play for the PA more than they play for the teams who's laundry they wear and Hanley does advance the cause of lots of pay for little play about as much as it can be advanced.

 

These aberrations are aberrations for the bulk of mankind but are unfortunately common in contemporary pro sports. It seems to take different forms depending on the sport. Pro football players seem to have a slightly different set of oddities going on than pro baseball players with pro basketball players slanted off a bit from the first two. But so many of all three are just slanted off from even what you would expect in the behavior of people that have been pampered to an extreme for a lifetime that it really calls into question the rational for giving these people all these accolades and all this money.

 

What are we really doing here? Is this as much about us as about them in some sense? It seems that the farther away they have gotten from real people the more aberrations make their way to the surface. It has gotten to the point that the aberrations have a significant impact on their ability to perform and thus make you question why teams just shove all this money across the table. It seems like enabling more than anything else. This probably has hit home for me more because of Hanley/Panda. These two deals by themselves represent such bad decision making. Neither deal makes a hill of beans of sense no matter how you cut them if you look at them in human terms, in terms beyond some combination of statistical analysis and traditional scouting. If you look at both in human terms you would stop dead in your tracks and question why you should consider these deals for another minute.

 

I actually think THIS is what John Henry was driving at in his comments about over dependence on statistical analysis in deciding who should get all this money and he just did not have a good way to truly broach the topic the way he wanted to broach it. How can he as the principle owner of a sports enterprise? But I think he left so many confused about where he was going with that because we were all groping for a Front Office kind of context in the traditional sense and we just did not get it. But I really think what he means is that his organization has got to look at these players as people as well as players. That goes beyond the mix of scouting and statistical analysis and "gee will player X mate up well with players Y and Z." I think his comments suggest that JH is questioning why we are not taking a harder look at these players as people and simply saying "what the f*** are we doing! Are we doing our team any good, our community any good or even the player any good by tossing millions of dollars at somebody that is such an incomplete person that he may not even be able to perform as a complete player any longer."

 

I also think Henry decided to at least try to broach the topic because he either knew he was lying about Pablo's Body Fat % or he knew that somebody in his organization had cooked the numbers, had handed him cooked numbers to announce which makes that a half truth at best which is a half lie which is .....a lie. So there he was, a wealthy man financially, fairly satisfied I guess with his life, tossed to the wolves so to speak to protect this guy that is an incomplete. I really think that is why we got both the statement about Pablo's Body Fat % and about over dependence on statistical analysis at the same time in the very same announcement. Henry may not have even intended to broach the topic before he found the words actually coming to his lips. IMO Henry found himself at odds with the absurdity of having to stand there and tell such a laughably transparent lie to protect this guy that his organization should really have questioned using a more human standard....something that was totally ignored in both the Hanley and the Pablo signings. Two mistakes that were now costing him close to $40m per year and from which he has no escape.

 

And there you have it! In 2013, even though we did have our fair share of luck plus, the roster was full of complete players who appeared to be decent humans, battling away for a common cause. We are close to being there again. Not quite there yet but pretty soon.

[User Name]

jung, do you really need to write a book for every post? I'm interested in reading what you say, but I've been done with textbooks for a while now. Also, you make too much stuff up, and value your "assesments" made from watching tv way too much. You are not a professional scout or talent evaluator.

[Kimmi]

He sucked last year and came in looking fat after the Sox were in last place last year. Plus Sox tickets are way too expensive and they got rid of Don. I'm not surprised that many fans are pissed.

 

The only reason his weight is such a big issue is because he stunk last year. If he had played at his career norms, none of it would be a big deal. This it the spin that the media is putting on it, and the fans are falling right in line. This guy states it rather well.

 

 

The reaction to Pablo Sandoval’s girth upon his arrival in Fort Myers last week has been, fittingly perhaps, heavy. It’s also been ridiculous. If you hire a fat guy and hand him $95 million, what do you think he’s going to turn into? Evander Holyfield?

 

In other words, Pablo Sandoval was fat when he was a World Series MVP for the San Francisco Giants, he was fat when he helped them win three World Series, he was fat when the Giants matched the Sox $95 million offer, and he’s fat now. Acting outraged, as so many in the media tried to be this week when they first saw the size of his gut, was as phony of the claim his body fat is 17 percent.

 

The media, it seems, was shocked. Shocked about what? That a fat guy at 26, 27 and 28 years old is still fat at 29?

So a guy called Panda shows up looking like a panda and the reaction is “outrage?” Outrage over what? A fat guy being fat?

 

Whatever the truth may be, the scorn heaped on Sandoval, while understandable, seemed utterly unfair.

 

It’s the same with Sandoval. If he hits and fields as well as he did with the Giants, he’s Panda and it’s a lovefest. If he doesn’t, he’s fat. The truth is he’s never changed.

[Kimmi]

I don't think it is hatred. That is your interpretation. I do think that there is a lot of resentment, because he was extremely overweight and underperforming last season, and he has given no effort to address the weight issue. It looks like he is not giving full effort. Fans resent that. If he were my neighbor, I am sure that we would get along famously. I'll bet he has the best BBQs in his neighborhood. So, I don't think anyone hates him. Is he being fat-shamed? Yuh, and I wouldn't be surprised if his team mates tease him about his weight too. Do you think they hate him.

 

Good-natured ribbing among teammates is one thing. The type of scorn, resentment, and yes, hatred I'm reading here is something entirely different.

[Kimmi]

No Kimmi. It is not hatred. At least on my part, anyway. It is just an honest reaction to seeing two players being paid over 40 mil a year who act like they just don't care. Of course I want them to rebound and be productive this season.

 

And of course I resent that they don't make the effort to be accountable for their bad performance.

 

For about 3-4 years I have been hoping each season that Pedroia will rebound and be as productive as he had been before the onset of injuries. I am still hoping that he rakes this year. But he is much different from these two guys. He has been one of the best at his position and every year he goes out and plays hard. No one has any doubt about his commitment to being good.

 

In a lesser market Hanley and Pablo can get away with this stuff. Not in Boston.

 

Here's the thing though. People keep saying that Panda and Hanley don't care. That is pure speculation from both the media and the fans. It's character assassination from people who really have no idea.

 

Hanley has done everything the team has asked him to do - for two seasons now.

 

By all reports, Panda has worked very hard during the offseason on his conditioning. So, he doesn't look as svelte as you all want him to look. That doesn't equate to him not caring. And he has also said that he has something to prove to the fans and to his teammates. By all reports, he also looks much better on the field this season than he did last season.

 

The resentment against him is slanting people's opinions of him in an unfair way.

[Kimmi]

25 is not that much in my world. I can do that in 2-3 weeks of low carbing once I hit ketosis. I could drop 60 in 3-4 months if I was healthy. I really don't see why Pablo could not come into any spring with a new body so f*** him.

 

I have no problem with Hanley's weight at all. I just don't see him doing all the extra stuff that would be of benefit in learning his new position. That is why I can't see him working out at 1st.

 

I mean no offense by this question, but if losing weight and keeping it off is so easy, then why are you, in your own words, fat? People know the health risks of being overweight, and they are many. For people who are "addicted" to food, controlling that addiction is as difficult as controlling the addiction to any other vice. I don't think most people happily choose to be fat.

[Kimmi]

Never mind that Sandoval's defense is not exactly stellar to begin with. I don't think you should be expecting Gold Glove performance out there.

 

No one's expecting Gold Glove defense, but he should be league average, which he has been for his entire career up until last year.

[Kimmi]

And that's a shame given that he cost 19 mil a year. Ouch.

 

And that's the other part of it. People are unhappy with the contract (which I was against myself), and so they take it out on Panda. The contract (and the ticket prices) are not Panda's fault. That is on the FO.

[a700hitter]

Good-natured ribbing among teammates is one thing. The type of scorn, resentment, and yes, hatred I'm reading here is something entirely different.

You are in no position to judge what is in someone else's heart. He is the object of scorn and ridicule, but not hate.

 

And btw, clubhouse ribbing is not always good-natured.

[a700hitter]

Here's the thing though. People keep saying that Panda and Hanley don't care. That is pure speculation from both the media and the fans. It's character assassination from people who really have no idea.

 

Hanley has done everything the team has asked him to do - for two seasons now.

 

By all reports, Panda has worked very hard during the offseason on his conditioning. So, he doesn't look as svelte as you all want him to look. That doesn't equate to him not caring. And he has also said that he has something to prove to the fans and to his teammates. By all reports, he also looks much better on the field this season than he did last season.

 

The resentment against him is slanting people's opinions of him in an unfair way.

He is not "as svelte" as we want him to look? He's a fat slob, and he admittedly did no defensive work this off season. He may care how he does, but he didn't work to improve by his own admission.

[Thunder]

No one's expecting Gold Glove defense, but he should be league average, which he has been for his entire career up until last year.

 

I guess this is what I was trying to say last night. Somehow, he found a way to be very productive in SF, and just wasn't last year, and who knows why? IIRC, Mike Lowell had troubles at 3B when he first moved from the NL to Fenway, and it's a known phenomenon that the change from NL to AL is not always easy.

[Kimmi]

I find it a little creepy how often you jump to Kimmi's defence. It seems like every time I log on for a read, there you are jumping in to defend her despite not being involved in the conversation yourself. What is that about? She's an intelligent person who can more than look after herself. Why do you feel the need to do it so often? Just curious. It reads like somebody with a crush protecting his love ha! :-)

 

There is nothing creepy about it. Cycles and I have been posting together and playing fantasy baseball together since about 2009. I consider him a dear friend. He always has my back, which I appreciate.

 

I appreciate that you and others think that I can defend myself, which I can, but that doesn't mean that I don't also appreciate someone else sticking up for me. I think anyone would appreciate that. He is a good guy.

[Bellhorn04]

And that's the other part of it. People are unhappy with the contract (which I was against myself), and so they take it out on Panda. The contract (and the ticket prices) are not Panda's fault. That is on the FO.

 

Kimmi, I truly respect your point of view on Sandoval. I think it's admirable. I will just add one thing here.

 

When players who are in the first year of big contracts have horrendous seasons like Pablo and Hanley did last year, fans want to have some idea why they did, and they want some sort of basis for believing that it was an aberration that can be reversed. With Hanley, you can look at the tremendous start he had last year and the shoulder injury, and draw some hope from that.

 

With Pablo, though, there is no indication of injury, there is nothing to explain why he was so horrible on both offense and defense. So fans naturally grasp onto the hope that it had something to do with his being out of condition. And of course we know now that the Sox asked him to show up in better condition than he was in last year.

 

So he shows up looking like he weighs about 300 pounds.

 

It's quite natural that he's going to draw some flak for all this.

 

The only way Pablo can get fans back on his side now is with his on-field performance. I certainly hope he can.

[Kimmi]

I guess this is what I was trying to say last night. Somehow, he found a way to be very productive in SF, and just wasn't last year, and who knows why? IIRC, Mike Lowell had troubles at 3B when he first moved from the NL to Fenway, and it's a known phenomenon that the change from NL to AL is not always easy.

 

This is exactly right. He deserves a chance to at least play a real game before the crucifying begins.

[a700hitter]

There is nothing creepy about it. Cycles and I have been posting together and playing fantasy baseball together since about 2009. I consider him a dear friend. He always has my back, which I appreciate.

 

I appreciate that you and others think that I can defend myself, which I can, but that doesn't mean that I don't also appreciate someone else sticking up for me. I think anyone would appreciate that. He is a good guy.

Taking your side of an argument is one thing, but being an attack dog and insulting is creepy and obnoxious. He needs to cut it out. The guy is a half wit, and nothing is more irksome than an obnoxious half-wit.

[Thunder]

Taking your side of an argument is one thing, but being an attack dog and insulting is creepy and obnoxious. He needs to cut it out. The guy is a half wit, and nothing is more irksome than an obnoxious half-wit.

 

I wouldn't go that far, and I'm trying to stay out of this brewing brouhaha, but healthy competition is good for forums like ours. We can't have everyone agreeing with each other. That gets boring.

[a700hitter]

I wouldn't go that far, and I'm trying to stay out of this brewing brouhaha, but healthy competition is good for forums like ours. We can't have everyone agreeing with each other. That gets boring.

Disagreeing with someone is fine. Kimmi and I and others do it all the time. Telling another poster that he has reading comprehension problems is obnoxious. More than half of his posts are insults directed at other posters and the remainder are just devoid of value. Edited February 28, 2016 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

Taking your side of an argument is one thing, but being an attack dog and insulting is creepy and obnoxious. He needs to cut it out. The guy is a half wit, and nothing is more irksome than an obnoxious half-wit.

 

The only difference between his "attacks" and most of the other posters attacks is that he doesn't try to hide his attacks behind other guises, which is even worse, if you ask me.

[a700hitter]

The only difference between his "attacks" and most of the other posters attacks is that he doesn't try to hide his attacks behind other guises, which is even worse, if you ask me.

Kimmi, BS.

[User Name]

Back to baseball:

 

Another aspect of the Pablo problem is that he comes off as an obnoxious douche in his interviews in both English AND Spanish, which is quite an accomplishment. But as others have said, it's all moot if he doesn't suck. But what can we draw hope from (as Bell said) if he clearly didn't put in the work that was asked from him in the offseason?

[a700hitter]

Back to baseball:

 

Another aspect of the Pablo problem is that he comes off as an obnoxious douche in his interviews in both English AND Spanish, which is quite an accomplishment. But as others have said, it's all moot if he doesn't suck. But what can we draw hope from (as Bell said) if he clearly didn't put in the work that was asked from him in the offseason?

So, English as a second language is not an excuse. Sometimes things lose meaning or take on erroneous meaning in the translation. If he had been injured last season, I would be more optimistic about his future. Also, he had been declining (at least from the right side) before we got him. Plus, he was never that great. I am more optimistic about Hanley, because he was injured and he is moving back to the IF.

[User Name]

I will go to war for a player who puts in the work. JD Drew was fragile, but he tried anything under the sun to help keep his body healthy, including some stuff that sounded downright wacky. Hanley has changed position twice, and lost the amount of weight they asked him to lose. There's just no excuse for Pablo. I guess I take it harder because I was once at least as fat as he was by the end of last year, but I sure as hell ain't that fat now, and I don't need to lose weight for my job, and I don't have millions of dollars. I also know firsthand what that excess weight does to your lower body regardless of how strong your legs are. He's literally eating himself out of the league, and he looks like he does not give a f***.

[Spudboy]

I mean no offense by this question, but if losing weight and keeping it off is so easy, then why are you, in your own words, fat? People know the health risks of being overweight, and they are many. For people who are "addicted" to food, controlling that addiction is as difficult as controlling the addiction to any other vice. I don't think most people happily choose to be fat.

 

In my case Kimmi it's simple. I am depressed and don't give a f*** anymore. I am lazy and do not wish to endure the increase in pain that walking would require me to realize. That is to say that I can no longer exercise.

 

Someone get me a big bottle of 5/325s and I'll give it a go.

 

I'm a 60 year old man that has a debilitating injury. Pablo is a very well compensated 29 year old professional athlete. He is paid to excel at something that "normal" people can not do.

[Spudboy]

I will go to war for a player who puts in the work. JD Drew was fragile, but he tried anything under the sun to help keep his body healthy, including some stuff that sounded downright wacky. Hanley has changed position twice, and lost the amount of weight they asked him to lose. There's just no excuse for Pablo. I guess I take it harder because I was once at least as fat as he was by the end of last year, but I sure as hell ain't that fat now, and I don't need to lose weight for my job, and I don't have millions of dollars. I also know firsthand what that excess weight does to your lower body regardless of how strong your legs are. He's literally eating himself out of the league, and he looks like he does not give a f***.

 

Amen.

[mvp 78]

The only reason his weight is such a big issue is because he stunk last year. If he had played at his career norms, none of it would be a big deal. This it the spin that the media is putting on it, and the fans are falling right in line. This guy states it rather well.

 

Fine. He sucked and was fat last year. Until he is good and fat in Boston, fans have every reason to not think he's the best guy to have on the team.

 

We're clearly just talking in circles here.

[Hitch]

There is nothing creepy about it. Cycles and I have been posting together and playing fantasy baseball together since about 2009. I consider him a dear friend. He always has my back, which I appreciate.

 

I appreciate that you and others think that I can defend myself, which I can, but that doesn't mean that I don't also appreciate someone else sticking up for me. I think anyone would appreciate that. He is a good guy.

 

 

It probably reads harsher than I intended it. I don't have an issue with him (don't know him) and I certainly don't see him as an 'attack dog', it was just I noticed he pretty much only seemed to post when in defence of you. Just found it a little odd.

 

Anyway, I shouldn't have mentioned anything. No big deal.

[Hitch]

I will go to war for a player who puts in the work. JD Drew was fragile, but he tried anything under the sun to help keep his body healthy, including some stuff that sounded downright wacky. Hanley has changed position twice, and lost the amount of weight they asked him to lose. There's just no excuse for Pablo. I guess I take it harder because I was once at least as fat as he was by the end of last year, but I sure as hell ain't that fat now, and I don't need to lose weight for my job, and I don't have millions of dollars. I also know firsthand what that excess weight does to your lower body regardless of how strong your legs are. He's literally eating himself out of the league, and he looks like he does not give a f***.

 

I know it's been mentioned in the media and it's sometimes best to take it with a pinch of salt, but I really do think he has a condition. In fact, watching his interviews, I think he has social issues and an an eating illness.

[Thunder]

I will go to war for a player who puts in the work. JD Drew was fragile, but he tried anything under the sun to help keep his body healthy, including some stuff that sounded downright wacky. Hanley has changed position twice, and lost the amount of weight they asked him to lose. There's just no excuse for Pablo. I guess I take it harder because I was once at least as fat as he was by the end of last year, but I sure as hell ain't that fat now, and I don't need to lose weight for my job, and I don't have millions of dollars. I also know firsthand what that excess weight does to your lower body regardless of how strong your legs are. He's literally eating himself out of the league, and he looks like he does not give a f***.

 

I have no response to this beauty.

[Kimmi]

He is not "as svelte" as we want him to look? He's a fat slob, and he admittedly did no defensive work this off season. He may care how he does, but he didn't work to improve by his own admission.

 

He worked on his conditioning, which is what the FO asked him to do.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, I truly respect your point of view on Sandoval. I think it's admirable. I will just add one thing here.

 

When players who are in the first year of big contracts have horrendous seasons like Pablo and Hanley did last year, fans want to have some idea why they did, and they want some sort of basis for believing that it was an aberration that can be reversed. With Hanley, you can look at the tremendous start he had last year and the shoulder injury, and draw some hope from that.

 

With Pablo, though, there is no indication of injury, there is nothing to explain why he was so horrible on both offense and defense. So fans naturally grasp onto the hope that it had something to do with his being out of condition. And of course we know now that the Sox asked him to show up in better condition than he was in last year.

 

So he shows up looking like he weighs about 300 pounds.

 

It's quite natural that he's going to draw some flak for all this.

 

The only way Pablo can get fans back on his side now is with his on-field performance. I certainly hope he can.

 

I appreciate you being able to state your points in such a reasonable manner.

 

As I've said, I can certainly understand people being skeptical over Pablo's ability to rebound.

 

You are right, Pablo is going to have to produce to win the fans back.

 

Heaven help him if he starts off slowly, either offensively or defensively.